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Yes please JW. I'm trying to compose over the changes - it's my next project in the JOI course. Knotty has already composed over the changes about a year ago.

scepticalforumguy,

When I am not sure about the chord changes, I usually listen skip to different chorus or even find a different version of the song to figure out what's going on. the improvised lines will tell you a lot. When I am transcribing tunes I always double check the changes with the head out.

That's why I mentioned Eb-D resolution few threads before. that should at least tell you it's a 7th-3rd resolution or 4th resolving to 3rds, since that's where half steps happens in major/mixolydian scale. And I've already mentioned the recordings I listened to earlier.

To me it sound like you took one instance of the chord out of context and applied to entire song. It's important that if what you are trying to figure out is WHAT　THE COMPOSER INTENDED (like you said before), then other recordings and the solos indicate that its Bb7, and C/Bb would be a variation on that.

BTW a teacher can probably save you a lot of time and confusion.

Also It does seem like so much energy is wasted on this, isn't that time better spent practicing?

btw I mentioned this with Beeboss but when you do 5/4 on Very Early, if you can do 2vs3 on the first 3 bars and 3vs2 I wonder what that would sound like if Bass player played that rhythm and improvise over that... or do walking bass line with 4v3 and play the last 2 beats normally. It would sound like you are speeding up and slowing down constantly..I know Beeboss is doing that with The solos, but I wonder what it would sound like if the rhythm section did it too..



Beeboos, btw nice job on VE!!

First off, I am a teacher, and have taught jazz among other things probably before you were a twinkle in your daddy's eye. Stop assuming a teacher can teach me anything about this particular exercise in using my ears to learn a tune. I was not confused about anything. I transcribed the tune for this workshop, and found the chords which ultimately matched the real book. I also found the extensions not included in the book. I also found that from the recording I used, the infamous Bb7 contained no Ab, so I didn't transcribe one. What do you think a teacher would tell me that I didn't figure out myself, besides not using one chord to guide my decision on what to call that chord?

Do I know everything there is to know about jazz? Not a chance. Do I have all the answers about transcribing jazz? Nope. Do I still consider myself willing to learn? By all means.

I'm not sure if you are trying to be condescending, but you're coming across that way again. If you're not trying to be condescending, then my apologies. But please realize that what I am posting here in this forum is to learn how others are approaching tunes in an effort to see if there is anything that I can also learn from and contribute to. Yes, teachers can learn too, but nobody takes kindly to confrontation and mean-spirited comments. Kind of like me suggesting you go back to school too, no? Maybe I'm a bit naive as far as what to expect from others regarding forum behaviour, who knows?

Yes, but it is nearly midnight, so I'd wake people up if I started practicing. Let me say this though: drop it now, it's becoming tedious, and I'd rather discuss other things. I promise when you say something questionable in the future I won't tell you to find a teacher. I hope you'll give me the same consideration.

Sceptical

I am not being condescending. I know jazzwee has a teacher, and I really wish I had someone like jazzwee's teacher's to go to locally. Dave Liebman talks about the better you are the more important it is that you find a teacher. My friend is touring with people like Natalie Cole right now but he still calls people like Bill Cunliffe or Benny Green for lessons wheneever he has time

In other words there is no shame in finding a teacher, and it's not a reflection on your lack of ability(or I am implying that. I only suggested finding a teacher since you asked whether our conclusion about the tune was based on what our teachers taught us.

A teacher would definitely clarify to you that when you write C/Bb, most people will assume the C is a major triad. He or she can also tell you that chords like C/Bb usually indicate a particular voicing but may not necessary give you the underlying harmony as it can be used over Bb7#11, Bbmaj7#11, or even C7. You see that in Big band charts quite often, where the composer uses a C/Bb for particular section for voicing/effect, but uses Bb7 for their regular changes.

Knowing some of these convention will probably help you communicate what you are trying to say.

So I am not sure why you are taking the studying with teacher
comment so personally. Maybe it would help if you stop treating what I or Dave or anyone here say as a personal attack. We have nothing against you.

And I would love to go back to school if I can afford it!!

I think you misunderstood what I meant by this. My point was that if someone helped shape your decision about what you may find somewhere, whether it be a teacher, a book you read, or whatever, most likely you will look for that particular thing there. When you and JW listened to the recording I posted from Youtube, your information about a Bb7 chord existing there (in that particular place, in that particular clip) made you hear something that wasn't there.
I'm not saying having a teacher is bad, I'm saying it (or reading the changes in the book) misguided you in this instance. It's a form of prejudice, that's all. You thought it (Ab) should be there because you came in with pre-existing information. I can almost 100% guarantee that you wouldn't have done that if you didn't know what to expect. I had no idea that there should've been any particular note there, so I listened, and listened and listened, and by process of elimination determined that an Ab didn't exist. Yes, probably everywhere else it did, but not there.

True, but I've learned that from you now, haven't I? Saved myself some money tonight! And I kind of knew that already, btw. I was just hoping that conventions had changed to be looser towards slash chords. And maybe they will soon in any case. Also, I have the Mark Levine Jazz piano book, but it was published in the 80s, so the info could be outdated. Speaking of slash chords...trouble brewing here...listened to Maiden Voyage (from the album)....the first chord IS a C/D on the original recording?

Only because you mentioned it twice, but in both cases it didn't really make sense to me given the entire context of the conversation. Good teachers are great to have, no doubt. Wouldn't you agree that saying "Get a teacher" might come across as a bit rough though given the context?

Believe me, I have nothing against teachers (would be kind of odd...)and have taken Master Classes and private lessons in the past a looong time ago, but these days I'm finding that I'm learning lots of different things from so many other sources other than Jazzers better than me. Where I live there are some truly amazing players here, but I'm not convinced that they are the best teachers. I think I learn more by listening, and occasionally jamming with them.

Okay a better example will be this

I can play C/C# A/Bb F#/G or Eb/E over C7 chord, they are all voicings based on the half-step whole step scale. But that does not change the chord to any of the above. (Note that C/C# has no 7th/Bb in the chord).If I hear something like that I will have to listen to the entire context, listen to different choruses of solos, the head out make a conclusion about the harmony. Again it makes a difference to look at a slash chord as a voicing or actual function in the overall harmony, and often time it isn't.

BTW I am pretty sure that if you gave me that recording of VE and I haven't hear it before& I have no chart... I would still come to a conclusion that its Bb7 after listening to different versions and figuring out the lines in the solos.

I understand your point completely. I don't think you understand what I am talking about though. I said there is no Ab in that particular chord. There is no Ab there. None, as far as I can hear. I based my chord name on not what was missing, but what was there. I did not consider an amalgamation of different versions of the tune, on different choruses, on different albums on different phases of the moon. Seriously, why are you still talking about VE?

Yes, I can say without doubt that you'd arrive at a Bb7 within the context you are describing, and I would too if I went through the same process. I didn't do that though. You got that point, right?

Also, I'm not sure what you are talking about re "C/C# A/Bb etc over C7 chord". A slash chord over a C7 chord? A scale? Two notes? I think you can see the difficulty in trying to describe something now.

And this sentence doesn't make sense to me at all. Are you saying something about a slash chord that isn't a slash chord, or that it (the slash chord) doesn't function in the overall harmony?

But in any case, can we never, ever, ever talk about the C/Bb chord again. How is it that I get labeled as being hung up on theory and overanalyze things, yet all the while I'm trying to stop the conversation on the matter as politely as I can?

This doesn't mean I don't want to talk about slash chords, just not the one in VE that everyone is mistaking for a Bb7. Kidding, people. Calm down. Put away the torches and pitchforks.

Hi Scep, as I said before standard terminology for slash chords is that C/C# means a C major triad over a C# in the bass. When you see chords in the real book written in this form that is what it means.

What Etc means is that these particular voicings are all generated from a diminished 1/2-1 scale and will work in context over a C7 tonality. If you were just to hear the voicing in isolation you might want to say the chord was A/Bb (or whatever) but in context of the tune it should be clear that it was a type of C7 voicing. The bass note is crucial for a proper understanding of the chord, even if is not played in the voicing.

Beeboss, thanks for your explanation and saving my time

All I meant is that slash chord may not spell out the root, 3rd or 7th, and it may not be a good indicator of what the actual harmony is. Also the problem is that slash chords usually work over different harmony.. the slash chord I mentioned above works over Eb7, F#7 or A7, and C/Bb may imply an inversion of C7 chord.

In most cases when we see slash chords, we assume it's a voicing that implies a particular harmony/chord changes..for example

E/C=voicing for Cmajor7#5
Bb/C=C7sus
F#/C=C7b9#11
D/C=Cmajor7#11,C7#11 or Inversion of D7

Again the problem here is that the way you(sceptic) seem to use these terms differently which makes it hard for us to follow. Beeboss understood me perfectly about the slash chords, and as far as i know that's how most people understand slash chords.

btw In your opinion, what scale would you use over C/Bb in that context? And how would you do it if you were doing a Roman Numeral Analysis on the tune? Following the real book changes you'll get this..


Cmaj7-Bb7-Ebmaj7-Ab7-Db7G7-Cmaj7
I-V7 of bIII-bIII-V7 of bII-bII-V7-I

would yours be different using your chords? To me V7 of bIII or Eb is much more straight forward.. i wouldn't even know how to notate C/Bb in respect to Eb..maybe II of V of I?

Scep, at :12, when he begins to play the melody, yes, I did not hear the Ab. So as far as training your ear correctly, I concur that you heard it right. He played it as Bb6(9), from what I heard.

Though to me it still sounds like some sort of dominant. Particularly since it resolves to a I.

Note that I'm talking about this in isolation as if I never heard Evans outline the harmony later on.

This makes sense. I think I was wondering why he was using those examples when the chord in question in VE was a C/Bb. When I wrote the chord I wasn't implying a C# or an Eb or an F# anywhere in that chord.

I hate to argue, but it's not at :12, it's at :1175892 You must be listening to something else.

That was quite challenging Beeboss. Very nice job! But the effect of 5/4 seems to make the tune feel rushed

Love your lines. Clearly you outline the harmony precisely (on downbeats ).

BTW - it's amazing what an extra week or so does. I'm pretty relaxed playing this now and what seemed difficult before sounds easy now. Maybe it's all the discussion about the progression that makes it all clear.

Well you still didn't explain what .08 to .11 is Or
was that :08 to :11 but nothing fit it. So I just thought you were high on something. LOL But you should be happy I keep vindicating you.

I think the .08 was when you click on the scrollbar thingy once it is playing the seconds show up as .08 to around .10. or :08 as you say. Man, now we're talking about using the correct time displays...

And yes, I'm happy about the repeated vindications.

How is Someday My Prince coming along? I've listened to the actual original a number of times last year as I sat through watching Snow White with my daughter. I don't recall if it is the same key as Evans does it though, but I doubt it. Which leads me to ask: How important is it that you stay in the original key of the person that wrote the tune, or made the tune famous (Evans in this case)? Besides playing with others, does anyone believe there is something sacred or important about the original key and are reticent to change it?

If pressed to answer (because I could play different things at different times) I'd play something that is still reminiscent of C maj, but is going to Cmin (Ebmaj), so the sus sound of CDFGBb would be something I probably used, or may use there.


This is the beginning of the conversation again. When I listened to the one recording of Evans I heard ambiguity in the opening phrase. I liked it, and took it down the path of understanding the first eight bars as a departure from C maj, through Cmin back to C maj. I was thinking that all the aforementioned chords (Bb, Eb, Ab) are all part of the Cmin scale, then the Db/G is the V of C again. This is why I said the chords in the book maybe don't make sense.

Remember, I didn't actually look at the book until after I transcribed the tune (well, transcribed the chords and bass). So, yes, the chords I use ARE the same as the real book, but maybe the scale note choices I am using are avoiding the constant V I resolutions in favour of a larger form (8 bar resolutions). JW picked up on this, stating that my solo note choices sounded ambiguous. Maybe ambiguous in terms of the written chords, but in my mind quite clear as to the direction of the resolution.

I also mentioned I had no intention of sounding like Evans in my solos. I may have otherwise listened more closely to what he did there, and found the arpeggiation/outline of the actual chords, and tried to do the same perhaps. But I didn't, and probably won't either unless forced to. You're not going to bully me into thinking about this song differently are you?

It would be boring if we all had the same take on things.

No, I think it is good to change the key. Playing in different keys stops us relying upon the same combinations of notes. Also we can choose the key to suit the range of our instrument.

On one version of VE, it's being played a half step up I believe. I don't know if it is a recording aberration or if Evans actually played it a half step away. So that itself should erase the issue of key.

I play Someday in Bb based on the Real Book.