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#1739988 - 08/24/11 09:05 PM Re: Best new upright piano for $7000 as an "investment?* [Re: turandot]  
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jazzyprof Offline
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jazzyprof  Offline
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Perhaps I do not understand what you meant by "perverse reaction". Was it not this you were referring to?
Originally Posted by turandot
However, dealers of a rival brand may post a hearty congratulations to the buyer, and cellebrate the low price in a post. This is not necessarily a sign of retailer brotherhood and good will to all. grin Even if such an apparently gracious dealer is hundreds or thousands of miles away, he may see value in drumming up the wrong kind of business for his own local competitor.


"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
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#1740119 - 08/24/11 11:54 PM Re: Best new upright piano for $7000 as an "investment?* [Re: byungwook]  
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pno Offline
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♪oron♪o, on♪ario, canada...
Originally Posted by byungwook
On top of that, the dealer call me this afternoon and said that unless I buy it by tomorrow, it will be $6800 + tax + delivery. I'm not sure how negotiable it will be, but given that many of you told me about how good the original quote was, I committed to her that I'll purchase it tomorrow. And, it'll be delivered on Thu!


Wow! Have you even seen the piano yet? You better make sure the piano is really new before you pay them and sign the acceptance document.


♫♫♫ ♫♫♫
YAMAHA C2M PE
#1740137 - 08/25/11 12:38 AM Re: Best new upright piano for $7000 as an "investment?* [Re: jazzyprof]  
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turandot Offline
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Quote
Perhaps I do not understand what you meant by "perverse reaction". Was it not this you were referring to?


Jazzy,

You have to begin with the premise that a retailer will at least occasionally sell a new piano at a price that he knows is below the average price needed to sustain his business and that he doesn't want that particular transaction publicized in a way that will bring other customers to him expecting or demanding the same price. I hope that's a reasonable premise.

If the purchase price and the purchase source is revealed on PW by the buyer in such a transaction (as often happens), it may cause a bit of a problem for that retailer. If a dealer of a competitive brand (let's imagine brand Y and brand K are in play here)calls further attention to the transaction by posting about the price and commenting what an unbelievable and remarkable price it is, that will probably add to the other retailer's problem, and be a nuisance to other retailers of that brand. He is in a small way eroding the brand value of the competitive brand.

Both retailers are willfully engaging in business practices that they know have negative consequences for themselves, for the local market, and as Norbert pointed out, for the piano industry in general. Both retailers are perverse.

The retailer who sells below a sustainable margin knows that if he makes a practice of doing that, he will probably put himself out of business. In doing it anyway, he is perverse.

The retailer of the competitive brand who willfully plays the transaction up here on PW fully understands that he may be sending customers to his rival's shop rather than his own, but he does it anyway to throw a wrench into his rival's operation. That is perverse. He also knows that he is helping to create the wrong kinds of customers for his industry because the focus of these customers is now strictly on the lowest possible price. So again, he is perverse.

IMO this sort of perversity is a natural by-product of the old territorial model breaking down in the Internet age. Retailers lament that customers are only looking for the lowest possible price, even though their industry model perpetuates conditions that cause it to be so.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
#1740163 - 08/25/11 02:16 AM Re: Best new upright piano for $7000 as an "investment?* [Re: turandot]  
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jazzyprof Offline
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Originally Posted by turandot

The retailer of the competitive brand who willfully plays the transaction up here on PW fully understands that he may be sending customers to his rival's shop rather than his own, but he does it anyway to throw a wrench into his rival's operation. That is perverse. He also knows that he is helping to create the wrong kinds of customers for his industry because the focus of these customers is now strictly on the lowest possible price. So again, he is perverse.

Turandot,

Sometimes a cigar is just...a cigar.

All I saw was Norbert congratulating a buyer for getting himself a great piano at a great price. You choose to see a perverse retailer gleefully sending hordes of buyers to his competition, demanding to be offered the same deal that our lucky member here got.

To me, your argument is deeply flawed. First of all, only the lucky buyer knows where he got this great deal from. He has not revealed the name of the dealer. Unless Norbert is clairvoyant he cannot possibly be plotting to send these imagined hordes to that dealer.

Secondly, I don't believe it is ever in any retailer's interest to send hordes of buyers to a competing dealer, even if they come asking for impossible deals. That is because retail is all about foot traffic: get the warm bodies in your store by any means necessary. Once they are in your store, if you are a good dealer you can sell them the Brooklyn bridge, if that's indeed what they really want.

You probably know Norbert much better than I do, but from his message of congratulations all I saw was...a cigar.



"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
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#1740230 - 08/25/11 07:44 AM Re: Best new upright piano for $7000 as an "investment?* [Re: jazzyprof]  
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turandot Offline
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Originally Posted by jazzyprof

Turandot,

Sometimes a cigar is just...a cigar.


No, a cigar is always a cigar. However, opinions of its aroma are not always the same.

Jazzy,

You asked me to explain what I meant by perverse. I think I did that. I was not seeking your agreement, just explaining why I used the word.

Now you say that my argument is flawed. There is no argument. I was simply explaining why I used that word.

I have already stated bluntly that I was not referring to Norbert. If you think that Norbert is the love-child of Santa Claus and the Sugar Plum Fairy, that's fine with me.

I was posting about the dynamics of the piano industry, both in its business practices and in how those practices play out here on PW -- the dynamic between retailer and customer, retailer and rival retailer, and brand to competing brand.

A member commented that if the OP here had declined the offer, the next buyer in the door would have been offered the same deal. I wrote that I did not think so in this case. If I was 'arguing' anything, I guess it was that. But it was not an argument in the sense that I was trying to convince anyone to agree with me. I was just stating a different opinion, an opinion based on the premise that a dealer who severely undercuts his usual margin will not want the whole world to hear about it.

The dynamic between a dealer and customer concerning price often creates very different opinions here on PW. We have read a comment here from Norbert that the customer should not have revealed the price, that it was an indiscretion on his part. We often hear from dealers that customers are too price-centric, too inquisitive about profit margins. We also hear dealers stating that other dealers are violating minimum selling price agreements and poisoning the well from which they themselves must drink. In my mind, all of that is specious (and no, I'm not going to explain why I use the word 'specious' grin). Rather than moan, groan, and assign blame, the industry should get with the times and repair its own 'flawed' business model.

It you don't agree with me, no problem. I'm not expecting you to change your opinion, and I'm certainly not going to change mine.



Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
#1740293 - 08/25/11 10:17 AM Re: Best new upright piano for $7000 as an "investment?* [Re: turandot]  
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jazzyprof Offline
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Originally Posted by turandot

It you don't agree with me, no problem. I'm not expecting you to change your opinion, and I'm certainly not going to change mine.

And on that note, let us agree to disagree and light up a Macanudo to celebrate Byungwook's new baby, about to be delivered today! yippie


"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
#1740316 - 08/25/11 10:54 AM Re: Best new upright piano for $7000 as an "investment?* [Re: jazzyprof]  
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turandot Offline
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Originally Posted by jazzyprof
let us agree to disagree and light up a Macanudo to celebrate Byungwook's new baby, about to be delivered today! yippie


That's a nice resolution, Jazzy. Sounds good to me!


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
#1740548 - 08/25/11 07:03 PM Re: Best new upright piano for $7000 as an "investment?* [Re: jazzyprof]  
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PassingBy Offline
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Originally Posted by jazzyprof

And on that note, let us agree to disagree and light up a Macanudo to celebrate Byungwook's new baby, about to be delivered today! yippie

smile yippie smile laugh

HOORAY!! Congratulations on your U1! enjoy!

#1740648 - 08/25/11 10:07 PM Re: Best new upright piano for $7000 as an "investment?* [Re: byungwook]  
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byungwook Offline
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Yesterday, I went to the dealer and inspected the piano. It even had a sticker saying that it's manufactured date is June, 2011. Its serial number is 6324xxx. Everything looked fine and I signed on the paper.

The total agreed on earlier was $6400 ($6250+$150 additional delivery charge), which they kept as promised. But, they put only $100 additional for the delivery. So, it became $6300 + $100. But, I did not want to make it a big deal, since I felt that $6400 was a fairly good price, and I just paid it as-is.

And... it was delivered on time today and my son just finished his first lesson on his brand new acoustic piano. He is extremely happy and his teacher was very happy as well.


Thank you all so much for your time/effort in helping me. Hope it will be a while for me to come back here and ask the questions about upgrading it to a grand piano.

Cheers!!!

Byungwook

#1740652 - 08/25/11 10:11 PM Re: Best new upright piano for $7000 as an "investment?* [Re: byungwook]  
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AWESOME!! Let your son enjoy his (hopefully) long, rich musical journey.

Once again, Congratulations!

#1740661 - 08/25/11 10:23 PM Re: Best new upright piano for $7000 as an "investment?* [Re: byungwook]  
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A happy ending. That's a really nice piano, your son is going to have a blast.


Gary
Essex EUP-111 at the mountains
W. Hoffmann T-122 at the beach
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