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Hello everyone, I'm currently learning Sonata No. 14 Moonlight, but as I can only reach an octave, I'm wondering the best options I have for compensating for this.

In the above pic, the bit I've edited, I just cannot reach this, so I think I got 2 choices,

1) ommit the "b" in the treble clef
2) raise the notes an octave in the bass clef

any suggestions or advice on which would be best, or is there something I could do that I've not thought of?

Let the B in the RH sustain w/ pedal and then hit the high C immediately after....

You should be able to minimize the gap such that it sounds ALMOST like you hit both notes at once. There's a lot of music out there with > 1 octave stretches where you'll hear this if you pay attention.

ah, thankyou Fate, I will give that a try,

There is another "option" Wayne... My guess is that you will be "holding" the B's in the left hand with your pinky and thumb?

What you could also try is this... in the left hand, without lifting the upper B off, slip your pinky on it, this will free the thumb for hitting the B just below middle C, leaving you with a full right hand spare for the C in the treble clef...

yes you will "lose" the very tail end of the lower bass clef B, but that will be slight.
In fact, (ahem), if you used the pedal momentarily you would not lose the tail end of the lower B at all!!!

Cue the disagreements!!!

cheers Rossy

... until you have to play the same treble B one crotchet later. Then to repeat that trick you'll have to sacrifice one of the base Es.

It seems to me that the least bad option in this case is to arpegiate the B-C stretch at the beginning of the measure, and allow the pedal to provide the effect of the C being sustained for three crotchets while you release it to get your thumb back on the B.

Just my £0.02, of course.

Yes, but he could use the sustain pedal to hold the C in the treble clef instead, as that is being asked to be held whilst the b,e,g trips are being played, so up to the A# everything is in harmony including the e,g,e in the Bass....

Learn to stretch for that 9th Wayne!!

I'm happy with your "piano tip no.1" at the mo Rossy, I'll try to get a vid uploaded of the passage in the OT soon, thnx for the help guys

You have the pedal down anyway? (this is moonlight sonata )

Your left hand is therefore free at the marked point

Therefore you can use both your hands to play the treble only on that first beat of measure 16.

For example you can play that c with your left hand.

That said, you will have to try what works best for you.

This would be my choice. You just played a "b" octave, which should be still sustained with the pedal. Go ahead and lift the right hand and catch the "c" with the pinky. The "c" note is the note that carries the melody and you want that to stand out anyway.

This way you are not interrupting the flow of the left hand.

You will in time probably, be able to reach that ninth.

I took Rossy's advice, I'm probabily over pedalling (again) here, don't laugh lol! (remember, I only just started this, oh god, I'm embarrassed before I've even posted this lol)

I have recently started playing this as well!

Wayne, there is absolutely no reason to be embarassed! It's a practice recording, and you're doing great! But I didn't hear the B in the melody line in measure 17, so make sure you don't short change that.

Now, back to your question. I agree with Strings and Wood, you will eventually be able to play a 9th, and so you should work towards being able to do that, rather than trying to figure out ways to avoid playing the 9th, and thereby never make progress towards increasing your span.

When I first started playing piano, I could barely play an octave, and my first attempt at the Moonlight first movement left me quickly frustrated. That 9th was beyond impossible, and many other bits of the music were as well.

Now, I've returned to it (after my initial attempt which was maybe 8 years ago or so) and find that the 9th fits comfortably under my fingers. (and other technique-based difficulties of the piece have melted away, so I am left with the much more difficult questions of interpretation...)

So, about the B-C stretch in measure 16... Can you hold your RH thumb on the lower B and then, without taking your thumb off, play that C with your pinkie? This is different than what you would need to do to play it in the timing of the piece. But if you can do this, or can almost do this, then you have quite a head start towards being able to actually play that 9th.

Even if you can't do the place-the-thumb-then-the-pinkie thing, I recommend trying. But only to the extent that there isn't pain! Remember, "no pain, no gain" does not apply to piano!

I am not at home right now, so I can't go and sit at the piano, but if you would like, when I get home I'll try to move my hands around and see if I can come up with any gentle hand stretching ideas. I am female, not very tall and don't have especially long fingers. If I can do it, so can you!

I should have said, I didn't play measure 17 as in the OT, I was only meaning to demonstrate the way I'm planning to get around the difficulties I'm having in measure 16.

When I first started, I too couldn't reach an octave either (with my RH, it's easier with my LH for some reason) I'm gonna try and stretch to the 9th, but gonna give it time.

Thnx for your advice, I look forward to when u get home

Interesting discussion. I agree with the suggestion to keep working on some gentle exercises until you can reach that ninth, because anything else is going to be a compromise with significant musical cost.

To understand the compromises here, it's important to think about pedaling. Most folks just assume that you use a "lot" of pedal in this piece. While that is certainly correct, you don't want to just press the pedal once at the beginning and forget about it after that. You have to decide where you will "clear" the pedal during the piece (i.e. momentarily lift and repress the pedal) to keep the harmonies from getting too muddy. Here is a suggested pedaling from Maurice Hinson's edition (for Alfred Publishing), and it think it's generally correct:



Each of these pedal changes is important. The change on beat one of the second measure above clarifies the half-step transition from B to C natural in the melody. Half-step dissonances are usually undesirable in this kind of melodic context. The changes on beats two and three serve to emphasize the movement of the bass octaves by eliminating the left-overs from the previous octave as you move up and crescendo. This bass movement is the most interesting feature of this otherwise largely repetitive measure.

If you think each of the pedal changes is important, then you're stuck trying to reach that RH ninth. You have to hold the left hand octave on beat one while you change the pedal or you lose the bass (really bad), and then you can't remove your RH pinky from the C natural during the subsequent changes or you lose the melody (also really bad). And omitting notes or changing octaves is also bad as it really interrupts the three-voice structure of the piece.

In order to free up some fingers (either the RH or LH thumb) to catch the low B in the triplets in this measure, it looks like you have to sacrifice one or more of these pedal changes.

If I had to do something, I would retain the pedal change on beat one (to clarify the melodic half-step) and quickly arpeggiate the B to the C natural in the RH (being careful to add a bit of weight to the C since it's the melody). Then I would give up the pedal changes on beats two and three so that I could take my pinky off the melody and use my RH thumb for those Bs. At beat four, things should be able to get back to normal.

(I'm using the terms "beat one, two, three, or four" as if the piece is written in 4/4 for convenience in this discussion. Many editions, including the Hinson that I'm citing here, do use 4/4 as the time signature. But Beethoven actually wrote the piece in cut time, a detail that ought to make a difference in one's interpretation. This, however, is a separate and controversial discussion).

Wayne, I have to agree that looking at your hand, getting that 9th is just a matter of practice and "stretching"....
don't worry about it too much.

Wayne, I just tried a few things out at my piano. Don't know if this will help you, but here goes.

Play a regular octave, say B to B. Look at your fingers and hand shape, try putting down some other fingers on black keys, then white keys. Notice how your hand accommodates more complez chords because your hand is sort of arched from the lower B to the higher B.

Now, plant your thumb on that B, then stretch your pinkie out as far as it will go. First, it looks like it will only go an octave. Now move your hand back, towards yourself, away from the piano (but keep your fingers on the keys). See if you can get your pinkie any closer to the C by moving your hand back.

Wait, this is impossible to explain. Maybe I can get Mr SK to take some photos... stay tuned.

Playing the B octave, note that the pinkie is farther up the key (the thumb could be too I imagine), and the pinkie joint is curved. Only the thumb and pinkie are depressing keys (and let's not talk about tension right now, that's depressing! )


Now I am playing the last group of notes in measure 15, using fingers 1,2,3 and 5


Now I am playing the 9th at the beginning of measure 17, thumb on B and pinkie on C. Note the difference in my pinkie position when playing the 9th compared to the pinkie when playing the octave:


Now I'm playing the 9th plus the E and G:


And just for a bit of closure, with pinkie on the A#


So my point in posting all of these pics is to show you how I can barely play that 9th, but that's all I need, barely is just enough. (Interestingly, with my left hand, I can play a 10th spread out like that, and a 9th if I want to play with the tip of my finger).

When playing an octave or less, I try to have my fingers "standing up" more, so I'm playing with the finger tip. But when playing at the limits of my reach, I end up quite flat fingered, and much farther out at the edge of the keys, as you can see in the pics.

It might not look pretty, nor does it look like I have any wiggle room. But the 1st movement of the Moonlight Sonata is slow, and there is more than enough time to get my fingers there so that I can play that 9th as written, rather than rolling it.

If you can't depress that C even with your fingers way out at the edge of the keys, try some **very** gentle stretching exercises. Do it when your hands are warmed up, say after playing, and also after taking a shower. What you want to do is try to get your hand right up against the edge of a table, notice how there's less gap with my left hand than with the right? Well, they both used to be much, much gappier:




Or you could just do this stretch with your hands together, these are meant to stretch between the index and pinkie, and between the index and thumb:





The key with all of these is not to push yourself, stop *before* there's pain. Don't expect results in a day, think more in terms of a year.

I don't know if any of this is helpful or not, but good luck!!

I'm failing to understand here, is the line at the bottom the pedal indicator, and what do you mean "pedal changes" Do the little arrows on the line indicate to "press" the pedal, or release. Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm not all that clued up on this.



It's soooooo helpful, and I must thank you for the time you have spent here in order to help me, thankyou, thankyou, thankyou

I believe so wayne < (best thing on the keyboard) from left to right "lesser than"= getting louder and > "greater than"= getting quieter , all by virtue Of "Loud" or sustain pedal.

The line at the bottom is a graphic time line of the pedal movement. Up = pedal up, down = pedal down. So the "little arrows" indicate a quick up/down otherwise known as a pedal change.