Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Hurricane Irma & Our Piano Friends!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Tuning a Piano
How to Tune Pianos
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Schumann's 4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Who's Online Now
87 registered members (AndyP, Aspiring, anotherscott, Agent88, ando, andreaitaly, 20 invisible), 1,745 guests, and 2 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#1737818 - 08/21/11 06:05 PM Sonata No. 14 Moonlight  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member
wayne33yrs  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
Sheffield UK
[Linked Image]

Hello everyone, I'm currently learning Sonata No. 14 Moonlight, but as I can only reach an octave, I'm wondering the best options I have for compensating for this.

In the above pic, the bit I've edited, I just cannot reach this, so I think I got 2 choices,

1) ommit the "b" in the treble clef
2) raise the notes an octave in the bass clef

any suggestions or advice on which would be best, or is there something I could do that I've not thought of?

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1737822 - 08/21/11 06:10 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 52
Fate Offline
Full Member
Fate  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 52
Kansas City
Let the B in the RH sustain w/ pedal and then hit the high C immediately after....

You should be able to minimize the gap such that it sounds ALMOST like you hit both notes at once. There's a lot of music out there with > 1 octave stretches where you'll hear this if you pay attention.

#1737829 - 08/21/11 06:21 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member
wayne33yrs  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
Sheffield UK
ah, thankyou Fate, I will give that a try, smile

#1737841 - 08/21/11 06:34 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,339
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Rostosky  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,339
Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
There is another "option" Wayne... My guess is that you will be "holding" the B's in the left hand with your pinky and thumb?

What you could also try is this... in the left hand, without lifting the upper B off, slip your pinky on it, this will free the thumb for hitting the B just below middle C, leaving you with a full right hand spare for the C in the treble clef...

yes you will "lose" the very tail end of the lower bass clef B, but that will be slight.
In fact, (ahem), if you used the pedal momentarily you would not lose the tail end of the lower B at all!!!

Cue the disagreements!!!




Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#1737848 - 08/21/11 06:47 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member
wayne33yrs  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
Sheffield UK
cheers Rossy smile

#1738082 - 08/22/11 03:40 AM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: Rostosky]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,567
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member
kevinb  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,567
Originally Posted by Rostosky

What you could also try is this... in the left hand, without lifting the upper B off, slip your pinky on it, this will free the thumb for hitting the B just below middle C, leaving you with a full right hand spare for the C in the treble clef...


... until you have to play the same treble B one crotchet later. Then to repeat that trick you'll have to sacrifice one of the base Es.

It seems to me that the least bad option in this case is to arpegiate the B-C stretch at the beginning of the measure, and allow the pedal to provide the effect of the C being sustained for three crotchets while you release it to get your thumb back on the B.

Just my £0.02, of course.

#1738456 - 08/22/11 04:24 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,339
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Rostosky  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,339
Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Yes, but he could use the sustain pedal to hold the C in the treble clef instead, as that is being asked to be held whilst the b,e,g trips are being played, so up to the A# everything is in harmony including the e,g,e in the Bass....

Learn to stretch for that 9th Wayne!!





Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project
#1738462 - 08/22/11 04:35 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member
wayne33yrs  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
Sheffield UK
I'm happy with your "piano tip no.1" at the mo Rossy, I'll try to get a vid uploaded of the passage in the OT soon, thnx for the help guys smile

#1739105 - 08/23/11 03:23 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,843
wouter79 Offline
4000 Post Club Member
wouter79  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,843
You have the pedal down anyway? (this is moonlight sonata wink )

Your left hand is therefore free at the marked point

Therefore you can use both your hands to play the treble only on that first beat of measure 16.

For example you can play that c with your left hand.

That said, you will have to try what works best for you.



[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
#1739114 - 08/23/11 03:40 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,840
Strings & Wood Offline


Gold member until Dec. 2012
Strings & Wood  Offline


Gold member until Dec. 2012


Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,840
USA
Quote
I just cannot reach this, so I think I got 2 choices,

1) ommit the "b" in the treble clef


This would be my choice. You just played a "b" octave, which should be still sustained with the pedal. Go ahead and lift the right hand and catch the "c" with the pinky. The "c" note is the note that carries the melody and you want that to stand out anyway.

This way you are not interrupting the flow of the left hand.

You will in time probably, be able to reach that ninth.








#1739127 - 08/23/11 03:55 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member
wayne33yrs  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
Sheffield UK
I took Rossy's advice, I'm probabily over pedalling (again) here, don't laugh lol! (remember, I only just started this, oh god, I'm embarrassed before I've even posted this lol)




#1739138 - 08/23/11 04:25 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,998
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member
ShiroKuro  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,998
not in Japan anymore
I have recently started playing this as well!

Wayne, there is absolutely no reason to be embarassed! It's a practice recording, and you're doing great! But I didn't hear the B in the melody line in measure 17, so make sure you don't short change that.

Now, back to your question. I agree with Strings and Wood, you will eventually be able to play a 9th, and so you should work towards being able to do that, rather than trying to figure out ways to avoid playing the 9th, and thereby never make progress towards increasing your span.

When I first started playing piano, I could barely play an octave, and my first attempt at the Moonlight first movement left me quickly frustrated. That 9th was beyond impossible, and many other bits of the music were as well.

Now, I've returned to it (after my initial attempt which was maybe 8 years ago or so) and find that the 9th fits comfortably under my fingers. (and other technique-based difficulties of the piece have melted away, so I am left with the much more difficult questions of interpretation...)

So, about the B-C stretch in measure 16... Can you hold your RH thumb on the lower B and then, without taking your thumb off, play that C with your pinkie? This is different than what you would need to do to play it in the timing of the piece. But if you can do this, or can almost do this, then you have quite a head start towards being able to actually play that 9th.

Even if you can't do the place-the-thumb-then-the-pinkie thing, I recommend trying. But only to the extent that there isn't pain! Remember, "no pain, no gain" does not apply to piano!

I am not at home right now, so I can't go and sit at the piano, but if you would like, when I get home I'll try to move my hands around and see if I can come up with any gentle hand stretching ideas. I am female, not very tall and don't have especially long fingers. If I can do it, so can you!


Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
#1739147 - 08/23/11 04:40 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member
wayne33yrs  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
Sheffield UK
I should have said, I didn't play measure 17 as in the OT, I was only meaning to demonstrate the way I'm planning to get around the difficulties I'm having in measure 16.

When I first started, I too couldn't reach an octave either (with my RH, it's easier with my LH for some reason) I'm gonna try and stretch to the 9th, but gonna give it time.

Thnx for your advice, I look forward to when u get home smile

#1739192 - 08/23/11 05:47 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,414
packa Offline
1000 Post Club Member
packa  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,414
Dallas, TX
Interesting discussion. I agree with the suggestion to keep working on some gentle exercises until you can reach that ninth, because anything else is going to be a compromise with significant musical cost.

To understand the compromises here, it's important to think about pedaling. Most folks just assume that you use a "lot" of pedal in this piece. While that is certainly correct, you don't want to just press the pedal once at the beginning and forget about it after that. You have to decide where you will "clear" the pedal during the piece (i.e. momentarily lift and repress the pedal) to keep the harmonies from getting too muddy. Here is a suggested pedaling from Maurice Hinson's edition (for Alfred Publishing), and it think it's generally correct:

[Linked Image]

Each of these pedal changes is important. The change on beat one of the second measure above clarifies the half-step transition from B to C natural in the melody. Half-step dissonances are usually undesirable in this kind of melodic context. The changes on beats two and three serve to emphasize the movement of the bass octaves by eliminating the left-overs from the previous octave as you move up and crescendo. This bass movement is the most interesting feature of this otherwise largely repetitive measure.

If you think each of the pedal changes is important, then you're stuck trying to reach that RH ninth. You have to hold the left hand octave on beat one while you change the pedal or you lose the bass (really bad), and then you can't remove your RH pinky from the C natural during the subsequent changes or you lose the melody (also really bad). And omitting notes or changing octaves is also bad as it really interrupts the three-voice structure of the piece.

In order to free up some fingers (either the RH or LH thumb) to catch the low B in the triplets in this measure, it looks like you have to sacrifice one or more of these pedal changes.

If I had to do something, I would retain the pedal change on beat one (to clarify the melodic half-step) and quickly arpeggiate the B to the C natural in the RH (being careful to add a bit of weight to the C since it's the melody). Then I would give up the pedal changes on beats two and three so that I could take my pinky off the melody and use my RH thumb for those Bs. At beat four, things should be able to get back to normal.

(I'm using the terms "beat one, two, three, or four" as if the piece is written in 4/4 for convenience in this discussion. Many editions, including the Hinson that I'm citing here, do use 4/4 as the time signature. But Beethoven actually wrote the piece in cut time, a detail that ought to make a difference in one's interpretation. This, however, is a separate and controversial discussion).


Paul Buchanan
Estonia L168 #1718
#1739226 - 08/23/11 07:02 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,129
Ataru074 Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ataru074  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,129
Houston, TX
Wayne, I have to agree that looking at your hand, getting that 9th is just a matter of practice and "stretching"....
don't worry about it too much.



Private Piano Teacher. MTNA
working on:
Albeniz: Iberia
Beethoven: Op 53
Bartok: Mikrokosmos vol. 5
Debussy: Estampes
Moszkowski: Op 72
#1739296 - 08/23/11 08:48 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,998
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member
ShiroKuro  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,998
not in Japan anymore
Wayne, I just tried a few things out at my piano. Don't know if this will help you, but here goes.

Play a regular octave, say B to B. Look at your fingers and hand shape, try putting down some other fingers on black keys, then white keys. Notice how your hand accommodates more complez chords because your hand is sort of arched from the lower B to the higher B.

Now, plant your thumb on that B, then stretch your pinkie out as far as it will go. First, it looks like it will only go an octave. Now move your hand back, towards yourself, away from the piano (but keep your fingers on the keys). See if you can get your pinkie any closer to the C by moving your hand back.

Wait, this is impossible to explain. Maybe I can get Mr SK to take some photos... stay tuned.


Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
#1739315 - 08/23/11 09:25 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,998
ShiroKuro Offline
3000 Post Club Member
ShiroKuro  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,998
not in Japan anymore
Playing the B octave, note that the pinkie is farther up the key (the thumb could be too I imagine), and the pinkie joint is curved. Only the thumb and pinkie are depressing keys (and let's not talk about tension right now, that's depressing! grin )
[Linked Image]

Now I am playing the last group of notes in measure 15, using fingers 1,2,3 and 5
[Linked Image]

Now I am playing the 9th at the beginning of measure 17, thumb on B and pinkie on C. Note the difference in my pinkie position when playing the 9th compared to the pinkie when playing the octave:
[Linked Image]

Now I'm playing the 9th plus the E and G:
[Linked Image]

And just for a bit of closure, with pinkie on the A#
[Linked Image]

So my point in posting all of these pics is to show you how I can barely play that 9th, but that's all I need, barely is just enough. (Interestingly, with my left hand, I can play a 10th spread out like that, and a 9th if I want to play with the tip of my finger).

When playing an octave or less, I try to have my fingers "standing up" more, so I'm playing with the finger tip. But when playing at the limits of my reach, I end up quite flat fingered, and much farther out at the edge of the keys, as you can see in the pics.

It might not look pretty, nor does it look like I have any wiggle room. But the 1st movement of the Moonlight Sonata is slow, and there is more than enough time to get my fingers there so that I can play that 9th as written, rather than rolling it.

If you can't depress that C even with your fingers way out at the edge of the keys, try some **very** gentle stretching exercises. Do it when your hands are warmed up, say after playing, and also after taking a shower. What you want to do is try to get your hand right up against the edge of a table, notice how there's less gap with my left hand than with the right? Well, they both used to be much, much gappier:

[Linked Image]


Or you could just do this stretch with your hands together, these are meant to stretch between the index and pinkie, and between the index and thumb:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The key with all of these is not to push yourself, stop *before* there's pain. Don't expect results in a day, think more in terms of a year.

I don't know if any of this is helpful or not, but good luck!!

Last edited by ShiroKuro; 08/23/11 09:28 PM.

Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
#1739610 - 08/24/11 11:22 AM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: ShiroKuro]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member
wayne33yrs  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
Sheffield UK
Originally Posted by packa
Interesting discussion. I agree with the suggestion to keep working on some gentle exercises until you can reach that ninth, because anything else is going to be a compromise with significant musical cost.

To understand the compromises here, it's important to think about pedaling. Most folks just assume that you use a "lot" of pedal in this piece. While that is certainly correct, you don't want to just press the pedal once at the beginning and forget about it after that. You have to decide where you will "clear" the pedal during the piece (i.e. momentarily lift and repress the pedal) to keep the harmonies from getting too muddy. Here is a suggested pedaling from Maurice Hinson's edition (for Alfred Publishing), and it think it's generally correct:

[Linked Image]

Each of these pedal changes is important. The change on beat one of the second measure above clarifies the half-step transition from B to C natural in the melody. Half-step dissonances are usually undesirable in this kind of melodic context. The changes on beats two and three serve to emphasize the movement of the bass octaves by eliminating the left-overs from the previous octave as you move up and crescendo. This bass movement is the most interesting feature of this otherwise largely repetitive measure.

If you think each of the pedal changes is important, then you're stuck trying to reach that RH ninth. You have to hold the left hand octave on beat one while you change the pedal or you lose the bass (really bad), and then you can't remove your RH pinky from the C natural during the subsequent changes or you lose the melody (also really bad). And omitting notes or changing octaves is also bad as it really interrupts the three-voice structure of the piece.

In order to free up some fingers (either the RH or LH thumb) to catch the low B in the triplets in this measure, it looks like you have to sacrifice one or more of these pedal changes.

If I had to do something, I would retain the pedal change on beat one (to clarify the melodic half-step) and quickly arpeggiate the B to the C natural in the RH (being careful to add a bit of weight to the C since it's the melody). Then I would give up the pedal changes on beats two and three so that I could take my pinky off the melody and use my RH thumb for those Bs. At beat four, things should be able to get back to normal.

(I'm using the terms "beat one, two, three, or four" as if the piece is written in 4/4 for convenience in this discussion. Many editions, including the Hinson that I'm citing here, do use 4/4 as the time signature. But Beethoven actually wrote the piece in cut time, a detail that ought to make a difference in one's interpretation. This, however, is a separate and controversial discussion).


I'm failing to understand here, is the line at the bottom the pedal indicator, and what do you mean "pedal changes" Do the little arrows on the line indicate to "press" the pedal, or release. Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm not all that clued up on this.

Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
Playing the B octave, note that the pinkie is farther up the key (the thumb could be too I imagine), and the pinkie joint is curved. Only the thumb and pinkie are depressing keys (and let's not talk about tension right now, that's depressing! grin )
[Linked Image]

Now I am playing the last group of notes in measure 15, using fingers 1,2,3 and 5
[Linked Image]

Now I am playing the 9th at the beginning of measure 17, thumb on B and pinkie on C. Note the difference in my pinkie position when playing the 9th compared to the pinkie when playing the octave:
[Linked Image]

Now I'm playing the 9th plus the E and G:
[Linked Image]

And just for a bit of closure, with pinkie on the A#
[Linked Image]

So my point in posting all of these pics is to show you how I can barely play that 9th, but that's all I need, barely is just enough. (Interestingly, with my left hand, I can play a 10th spread out like that, and a 9th if I want to play with the tip of my finger).

When playing an octave or less, I try to have my fingers "standing up" more, so I'm playing with the finger tip. But when playing at the limits of my reach, I end up quite flat fingered, and much farther out at the edge of the keys, as you can see in the pics.

It might not look pretty, nor does it look like I have any wiggle room. But the 1st movement of the Moonlight Sonata is slow, and there is more than enough time to get my fingers there so that I can play that 9th as written, rather than rolling it.

If you can't depress that C even with your fingers way out at the edge of the keys, try some **very** gentle stretching exercises. Do it when your hands are warmed up, say after playing, and also after taking a shower. What you want to do is try to get your hand right up against the edge of a table, notice how there's less gap with my left hand than with the right? Well, they both used to be much, much gappier:

[Linked Image]


Or you could just do this stretch with your hands together, these are meant to stretch between the index and pinkie, and between the index and thumb:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The key with all of these is not to push yourself, stop *before* there's pain. Don't expect results in a day, think more in terms of a year.

I don't know if any of this is helpful or not, but good luck!!


It's soooooo helpful, and I must thank you for the time you have spent here in order to help me, thankyou, thankyou, thankyou smile

#1739615 - 08/24/11 11:29 AM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,339
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Rostosky  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,339
Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
I believe so wayne < (best thing on the keyboard) from left to right "lesser than"= getting louder and > "greater than"= getting quieter , all by virtue Of "Loud" or sustain pedal.




Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project
#1739629 - 08/24/11 11:45 AM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,803
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Studio Joe  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,803
Decatur, Texas
Originally Posted by wayne32yrs
I'm failing to understand here, is the line at the bottom the pedal indicator, and what do you mean "pedal changes" Do the little arrows on the line indicate to "press" the pedal, or release. Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm not all that clued up on this.


The line at the bottom is a graphic time line of the pedal movement. Up = pedal up, down = pedal down. So the "little arrows" indicate a quick up/down otherwise known as a pedal change.


Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax
#1739630 - 08/24/11 11:47 AM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: Rostosky]  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,803
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Studio Joe  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,803
Decatur, Texas
Originally Posted by Rostosky
I believe so wayne < (best thing on the keyboard) from left to right "lesser than"= getting louder and > "greater than"= getting quieter , all by virtue Of "Loud" or sustain pedal.


Sustain has nothing to do with loud or soft.


Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax
#1739631 - 08/24/11 11:49 AM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member
wayne33yrs  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
Sheffield UK
Afternoon Rossy and Studio Joe.

Ah I see, so say I have the pedal pressed about half way, I release it a little (not fully) on the markes indicated, so in this case, on the bass notes (or have I got that the wrong way around, and I actually need to press the pedal down fully on the bass notes)

#1739636 - 08/24/11 11:54 AM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,339
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Rostosky  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,339
Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Studio Joe, it does not, but if you had read the whole thread, you would see Wayne calls it that!




Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project
#1739638 - 08/24/11 11:57 AM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,803
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Studio Joe  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,803
Decatur, Texas
Originally Posted by wayne32yrs
Afternoon Rossy and Studio Joe.

Ah I see, so say I have the pedal pressed about half way, I release it a little (not fully) on the markes indicated, so in this case, on the bass notes (or have I got that the wrong way around, and I actually need to press the pedal down fully on the bass notes)


All the way up at the marks, The technique indicated is to release sustain (all the way up)and then start new sustain (all the way down).


Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax
#1739643 - 08/24/11 12:01 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member
wayne33yrs  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
Sheffield UK
I think I understand, will give it a whirl smile Thnx

#1739644 - 08/24/11 12:03 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: Rostosky]  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,803
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Studio Joe  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,803
Decatur, Texas
Originally Posted by Rostosky
Studio Joe, it does not, but if you had read the whole thread, you would see Wayne calls it that!


I'm trying to help him better understand what the function of the sustain pedal is (sometimes called a damper pedal). It is not a loud pedal.


Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax
#1739646 - 08/24/11 12:05 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member
wayne33yrs  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
Sheffield UK
I'm sure I never called it a loud pedal lol

(Oh I might av said something like the right pedal making the piano louder on another thread......)

Last edited by wayne32yrs; 08/24/11 12:12 PM. Reason: to admit, I might have, somewhere, sometime ?
#1739660 - 08/24/11 12:22 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,414
packa Offline
1000 Post Club Member
packa  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,414
Dallas, TX
The modern symbols for the sustain pedal look a bit like this:

|__________| or |_____^_____|

These symbols indicate where to apply (|__) and then release (__|) the sustain pedal. The little arrow that sometimes appears in the middle of the pedal indication indicates a place where you "clear" or "change" the pedal by quickly releasing and then immediately reapplying it.

In older editions, you sometimes see:

Ped followed later by *

to indicate where to apply and then release the sustain pedal. This older convention doesn't have a symbol for the little arrow, so you have to figure that out for yourself. The older convention also isn't as precise in indicating exactly where to initiate pedal actions. Nevertheless, you will still often see this kind of pedal indication in some editions.

All of these previous symbols deal with the sustain pedal, and none of them deal with half-pedaling or the use of the other pedals. There are notational conventions for other types of pedal operations (e.g. half-pedaling or the una corda pedal), but they are seen much less often than the simple sustain operations shown here.

I believe Rostosky was also explaining the hairpins (the symbols that indicate changes in dynamics or loudness). These symbols are not really related to pedaling, although it is important to consider matters of dynamics when planning your pedal usage.

Here's a scan of a few measures from a modern score with pedal and dynamic indications in red so you can see these symbols in actions:

[Linked Image]

I'm sorry I wasn't clearer earlier but hope this helps.. Some of these things are harder to explain without a demonstration.


Paul Buchanan
Estonia L168 #1718
#1739669 - 08/24/11 12:32 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member
wayne33yrs  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
Sheffield UK
Hurray, I get it, thanks Packa.

Rossy, sorry, I misinterpreted what you said, get it now, thnx

#1739712 - 08/24/11 01:29 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: Ataru074]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,883
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Peyton  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,883
Maine
Originally Posted by Ataru074
Wayne, I have to agree that looking at your hand, getting that 9th is just a matter of practice and "stretching"....
don't worry about it too much.


Dittos, Wayne. It's not that hard a stretch and you may surprise yourself how quickly your hand adapts.


"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com

#1739765 - 08/24/11 03:08 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: Peyton]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 403
Devane Offline
Full Member
Devane  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 403
Ireland
Originally Posted by Peyton
Originally Posted by Ataru074
Wayne, I have to agree that looking at your hand, getting that 9th is just a matter of practice and "stretching"....
don't worry about it too much.


Dittos, Wayne. It's not that hard a stretch and you may surprise yourself how quickly your hand adapts.


Co-sign on that. I was given this piece after a lot of persuasion by my teacher last year.

I could reach the ninth but playing with your hand constantly spread out would make my hand ache. You see you are also limbering the fingers 2,3,4 when they're playing the triplets. The aches disappeared quickly.

The skill of playing the melody with those triplets is tricky though. I'm talking in terms of making sure the melody doesn't get lost with accompaniment.

#1739789 - 08/24/11 03:45 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,088
PianoStudent88 Offline
4000 Post Club Member
PianoStudent88  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,088
Maine
On the pedaling, the little peak ---^--- in the horizontal line has a specific aural result intended: to hear no break in the sound, but also not to hear the previous chord and the following chord smearing into each other.

The way I was taught to do it is: release the pedal as your fingers are depressing the new chord. Press the pedal back down right away, which will be just after the fingers have depressed the chord.

You can practice this by playing ascending and descending triads of the C major scale: C, Dm, Em, F, etc. Pedal at each chord change. Listen to the result, aiming for no break and no blur.


Piano Career Academy - Ilinca Vartic teaches the Russian school of piano playing
Musical-U - guidance for increasing musicality
Theta Music Trainer - fun ear training games
#1739841 - 08/24/11 04:34 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member
wayne33yrs  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
Sheffield UK
Thnx PianoStudent88, good tip, I will try that! (How strange that my muddy pedalling has managed to merge/splurge into my sonata moonlight thread, just like my chords do in one another when I play, I think I'm finally realising lol)

Thank you smile

#1739915 - 08/24/11 06:24 PM Re: Sonata No. 14 Moonlight [Re: wayne33yrs]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member
wayne33yrs  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,880
Sheffield UK
PianoStudent88, tried it, applied it to some stuff I play, real good, thanx again! I love this forum!

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  BB Player, casinitaly 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
ES8, what I will miss the most
by EVC2017. 09/23/17 08:06 PM
Fast playing, heavy keys. Yamaha clavinova
by assi. 09/23/17 02:57 PM
MOXF8 no love?
by FreakyPhingahz. 09/23/17 10:10 AM
Clementi Sonatina in d major no.6 (WIP)
by hyena. 09/23/17 09:51 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics181,998
Posts2,659,703
Members88,883
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0