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What are the main differences between these two composite actions?

Do either have some advantages(disadvantages) that the other doesn't have?

Many differences between the actions, PL. The goal is the same. The goal is to achieve more stability and consistency within the components of an action. This is achieved by removing the variability of organic components.

Both achieve this.

The chief difference between them is that the Millenium was designed to be an action for a Kawai. The design of the WNG allows it to be virtually universal. IOW, I can customize the placement of many of the subcomponents to achieve a final design that is simply unavailable today otherwise. THAT is cool!

By the way, I think it is inevitable that a comparison to the Steinway teflon bushings will be made in a thread like this one. I thought it might be germain to include the thoughts of a man who was responsible for the manufacture and delivery of millions of these teflon bushings to S&S for use in their pianos:

Hardy Von Auenmueller comments on the teflon bushing and WNG.

Rich,

And there is no second goal, that of acheiving components with less mass and thus an action with less inertia?

schwammerl.

Sure, they have a little less mass, but this makes a very small difference when compared to the weight of an extended lever with a hammer on the end. Proper balancing and killer response can be achieved quite easily with fine wooden parts.

This is absolutely a selling point of composite parts though, IMHO.

Actually the differences are significant -- with the WNG being superior.

1) The WNG action uses carbon fiber tubes for the hammershanks whereas the Kawai still uses wood. The detailed discussion is on the WNG site, but there is much variability in the stiffness of wood from one piece to another that is eliminated by the consistency of the CF.

2) The M-III still uses felt bushings whereas the WNG uses solid bushings. This gives a far stiffer hinge joint (good) with significantly lower friction (also good) and dramatically reduced susceptibility to humidity fluctuations over time resulting in reduced service needs (also good). Even with correctly adjusted felt bushings, extended playing creates heat which increases the friction of the bushing -- turning it into a brake lining, as it were.

3) The mass difference in the wippen isn't so much in the absolute weight of the thing as it is in the placement of the weight -- which is closer to the centerpin with a reduced inertial impact. How significant this is, I don't know as I haven't used the wippens yet. I would expect with static action "balancing" techniques it wouldn't show up as much as all. Dynamically, it might. But, certainly, the more significant factors would be the first two above.

Interesting. What is the before / after temperature differential of the felt bushings in this type of situation?

Please tell us more about this ....

Misleading.

I would argue that both have proper friction. Side to side may be better in the WNG.

Performance depends on the proper friction. Putting friction down too low favors a more specific style of playing.

In response to 1) the new Kawai Ninja M3 Action uses Phenolic Stablizers positioned on both sides of the hammer shanks in the new Blak pianos. I got a response from Kawai Don on this matter, he wrote:


The phenolic stabilizers are simply an improvement in the action which helps it perform better, adding a more positive motion to the hammer shank during forte playing. The M-III action was quite well tested prior to being released, and there were no real kinks to work out once it went into production in 2004. The GE-30 grand piano still uses that same action. The Phenolic Stabilizers could be used in an all-wood grand action as well - but then it wouldn't be all wood, would it?

The Phenolic Resin stabilizers do not apply to upright pianos - there is no place to use them in an upright action. They are not applied to the GE series grand pianos for cost reasons.

I hope this helps to clarify things.
_________________________
Don Mannino RPT
Kawai America

End quote.

So it seems Kawai figured this weak spot out if you want to call it one. From what you compared from the WNG it seems like adding the phenolic stabilizers definitely improves the performance compared to the original M3 or does it?

Both the Kawai and the WNG are extremely well thought out.

It is my opinion that the actual regulation of these parts is the most important "feature" and has the greatest impact on the pianist. Therefore, in premium wood vs synthetic materials, and in the context of the rest of the build of the piano, the pianist will differentiate action parts mostly on overall keyboard design and regulation first.

As the premium woods become more scarce and costly, synthetic materials will become more attractive and practical.

One thing I like about the WNG repetition is the ability to modify the design to meet an existing challenge. An example on my bench at the moment is a 1980's Baldwin L that the client has asked for a change in the feel of the action. The WNG accommodates the new key ratio by offering the modifiable repetition. This lets the overall action ratio be lowered, reducing lead in the keys and lowering inertia.

This is a very cost effective solution.

Larry,

You said it better than I did. Thank you.

But then... what is exposition without development?

I’m not sure heat is actually an issue. It might be, I suppose, but I doubt anyone has actually been able to measure this. More likely the situation you are referring to is related to the practice of some—notably Renner—to brush a small amount of graphite on the bushing felt before it is installed in the flange. After some amount of playing—which can be either continuous or broken up into brief intervals—these action centers show a tendency to freeze up and become sluggish; in the worst cases rendering the actions unplayable until the offending action centers are disassembled, the graphite crust broken up and removed and new pins installed.

Usually this effect has been attributed to graphite’s hygroscopic characteristic and its tendency to “glaze” when polished and not to an excess of heat. The parts remain sluggish even after the piano has not been played for some time.

To my knowledge this has not been an issue with any iteration of Kawai’s composite actions.

ddf

I have not actually worked with WNG parts or the most recent Kawai parts. However, I've played enough pianos with both, and read enough about both to feel confident enough to give my impression.


Either set of parts can produce a well-functioning action. However, I think WNG is probably superior. It's just a very well thought out, cohesive approach to action excellence: very dimensionally stable composite material, low friction capstans and keypins that don't need polishing, low-friction hard bushings; action parts designed to be low inertia, etc. However, I have heard some complaints about clicking parts. This has not been an issue with any of the WNG actions I've played.

Now, I think it's great that Kawai pioneered the use of ABS material/ composites in actions, especially since they stuck to it when everyone else laughed at them. However, I think Kawai's are usually very dissatisfying to play because they're sluggish. Because the Shigeru Kawais I've encountered don't seem to have this problem, even though they use the same parts (yes?), I blame the standards to which the action is assembled, not the parts. While some people do like the feel of a heavy touch, I'm not one of them, so I see this as a real disadvantage.

Although I have encountered some sluggish, heavy actions in some of the older Kawai grand pianos, I believe that the newer instruments, and certainly those from 2004 with the Kawai Millenium III action have an excellent touch and response.
Recently, at Parson's Piano shop in Shanghai, I had the pleasure of trying the full range of Shigeru Kawai models and K Kawai grands.
In an adjoining showroom there was a selection of prestigious European concert grands, but not including Steinway and Sons nor Bösendorfer. My impression was that the action response of both the Shigeru and K Kawai grands was more sensitive and smoother.

Regards,

Robert.

You could very well be right, though I've played a fair share of newer Kawais during the past few years that were much too heavy.

I definitely have a bias towards light actions with slightly shallower key dip, which most people probably wouldn't like.

Disclaimer: I am not an expert on this subject.

Renner recently pointed out to me that wooden hammershanks have quite a different ['bending'] flex on impact by hammer than composite materials allow. It's something that apparently transfers stress quite differently into centre pins, felt material and composite surfaces.

I am no expert on this but found their research data compelling. It was no "company hype" the way I understood things - Germany could no doubt build the finest engineered actions in the world - whatever material is used.

It was Renner's belief this made or "could make" a difference in long run - showing this on time lapse film taken over time.

Personally I believe that these innovations need some time to show what and if any improvements are actually being accomplished.

It is quite possible they "do" but I never quite understood what the problem was in the first place....

At same time one also needs to respect a company's efforts for innovation. The ones making it right now are certainly of great esteem. They have my personal respect for doing it "their way"

We certainly shouldn't wage one against the other and let consumers make their own choice - by learning along the way.

Fact is that there seems to have been no problems to date.

Personally I'm a bit reserved but basically neutral on the issue. If things work better than traditional methods,- at least mecanically speaking - it's better for others here to show how and why.

To be frank, we never had problems with the current actions of the pianos we represent. Nor am I aware of any others I am familiar with.

I'm sure world's big companies are closely watching things.

It's tough competition out there and everybody is looking for the edge. Newly designed actions could be one - or "not"


What's certifiably better today, will surely be adopted by others tomorrow.

Or simply "bought" - whole piano companies are...

Let's stay positive - all here to learn!

Norbert

An expression of superiority in pianos, even the actions, pretty much always involves a certain amount of opinion and personal taste. So whenever someone makes a simple statement that one thing is "superior" to another, I always look for an explanation of what lead to this statement.

Kawai tested Carbon fiber hammer shanks, and rejected them for tone and touch reasons. The engineering department even drew up a patent application for the precise design WN&G have adopted, but decided not to apply for the patent because we would not use the design. This doesn't mean that one can categorically say one is better than the other, but for Kawai, the wood shanks provided the feel and tone qualities that we want in our pianos. So from Kawai's point of view the wood hammer shanks are definitely "superior" to carbon fiber ones.

There is a lot of merit in hard bushings to replace felt. However, there are also a lot of benefits to the cloth. Serviceability, longevity, and predictability are all very good with well made cloth bushed action centers. Variation in friction from humidity changes, and softness of the cloth are the principle drawbacks. However, there are real drawbacks to using hard bushings, including difficult service procedures and inability to replace the bushings themselves without changing the whole part.

No matter what part of a piano you look at, there are tradeoffs being made between one benefit and another, and that is part of what gives each company their own identity and gives their instruments unique character. How does the French saying go? "Vive la différence."

As for a heavy feeling touch in a M-III action, this means that it needs regulation. Since Shigeru Kawai pianos tend to be maintained in very good regulation they rarely will feel heavy like this. But the RX actions should not feel heavy when they are in good regulation.

Yeah. This is one I'm still trying to decide for myself. All but one of the WNG actions I've played were in Steingraeber-Phoenix pianos, where there were too many variables to just evaluate the shanks by themselves. The other piano was a brand new M&H B. While there was perhaps some difference, it was mostly insignificant, and certainly not bad. I think for these to be most successful, a very resilient hammer is needed.



I've heard similar concerns before. What I'm curious about is what the friction tolerances in the pinning are because some rebuilders re-pin even brand new parts to precisely control friction.




I respectfully disagree. While it's true that a poorly regulated piano will not perform well, there is a difference between that sensation and a high inertia/ friction sensation. Most of the non-Shigeru Kawais I've played have had a heavy touch.

Even the ones in my care at university, after undergoing a thorough regulation (let-off, drop, springs, checking, hammer blow, etc.) and a thorough friction treatment (Flitz and McLube 444 on key pins and capstans, and Teflon powder on the knuckles), were still too heavy. I recommended touchweight analysis and correction for these pianos.

Beethoven,

In a prior post you state that you have no actual experience working with the new Kawai composite actions, and your signature says that you are a "piano technician in training" - yet you are denigrating an excellent design of a company that has achieved incredible results through their dedication to non-traditional parts and technology. You are also implying, perhaps unwittingly, that the M-III action suffers from "high inertia/friction".

I have tuned and tweaked many dozens of brand new Kawai instruments, including a fair number of new Shigeru pianos, and I find your statements to be completely inaccurate and somewhat outrageous. The action feel on the RX series grands is superb, and in no way does it feel heavy at all. Not once have I found any reason to consider doing any type of touchweight correction on any new Kawai. Every client I have worked with on their Kawai (including some seriously gifted pro players) has been thrilled with the feel of the M-III action.

Yes, as with any instrument, further refinements are almost always needed as cloth and felt compress. This also includes the most expensive European and American pianos.

One of the great joys of working as a pro player and pro technician is the chance to experience different instruments day in/day out. This is a gift! If you are more open to celebrating the differences in personality between pianos - and can learn to appreciate the value and distinguishing features of instruments manufactured at different price points - you will be a much more effective technician. And you will also be more likely to provide better service to your future clients.

I also feel that if you weren't posting anonymously you probably would not have made these statements. After all, this is a very small industry, and people will remember what you say and do, especially if it involves unfounded negativity.