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Hi, I plan to buy a babygrand for my daughters(for learning) and myself(for fun). Now I have two offers and both of them are from private. The first one is KAWAI 350--the owner bought it as new from 1970 and the price is around 3200 usd. The other one is KAWAI KG-1C--the current owner doesn't know how old the piano is but the serial number is 766057, the price is around 4100 usd.

The two pianos are in nearly the same condition in terms of exterior looking, and their sound are very similar too.

Which one should I choose? Is the KG-1C a bit newer than 350? But for piano is it true that the newer the better?---I am completely new to the piano world :-)

Lilia,

The KG is from 75. Its difficult to guage value/condition without playing the pianos. Age's effect on value/condition is not white as wash . . . Age is only important as it affects condition, condition is only important, to me at least, as it affects tone and touch . . . condition is usually dependant on use and upkeep, especially environmental concerns, more so than age . . . offhand, without a closer look, the prices look ok . . .

Mike

Hi, Lilia, and welcome to the Piano World Forums!

I agree with Mike... not a bad price on either piano, if it is in good condition. A dealer would easily ask twice that.

Good luck!

Rick

Thank for replies. We just went out and tried the two pianos once again. The key of KG1C seems to be a little bit heavy compared to the 350. According to the owner of KG1C, they bought the piano about 15 years ago and as no family member really know how to play the piano, it has been used only 1-2 times each year however they do keep piano tuned every second year.

Regarding the 350, as the "real" owner (current owner's parents) have passed away many years ago, the piano hasn't been used during the past 5-6 years and therefore not tuned these years either. The sound is not as accurate as KG1C. Can this piano stil l be tuned to its best condition?

Hi:

You would need to have a tech look at it to know for sure. Considering the age, you should have it done with either piano. Both could be good deals.

Take care,

Steve

You'd be surprised what a good cleaning and lubricating/friction reduction service on the action would do. It won't make the action feel substantially lighter, but it will make it feel substantially smoother (with the preception of being lighter).

It sounds like the KG 1C is barley broken in. Get the one you like the best, of course.

Good luck!

Rick

Well..I hate to be a stick in the mud....but

You really need to retain a knowledgeable tech that is aware of what the REMAINING life expectancy of either piano IS not just it's present condition. You don't even want to purchase said piano come to find out some refurbishment has to be done in the not so distant future. Even partial refurbishment is a costly endeavour,probably more $ than the cost of either piano. On either piano you are talking 35-40 years old which is fairly OLD for an all original Japanese piano. Of course it is always condition contingent based on it's previous environment and it's extent of use. A low milage 40 year old piano even if never played will have dying bass strings and hardened action felts. Now if the piano was kept in a hermetically sealed bag for the past 40 years, maybe not.

I have owned many many preowned 350s with either the Howard stencil or the K.Kawai fallboard name. The majority were candidates for restringing,damper felt and action work or hammer replacement. 40 years of subtle humidity is deadly on any piano.The rebuilding industry obtains these pianos for cheap.They do the refurbishment at wholesale and makes a few dollars upon resale.
Now the KG1C is a bit newer but still. Actually 1975 is old for a KG1C. That is on the border of the transition from the 350,550,600,750 to the first KG series pianos. Most KG?C were of the late 70s to the early 80s before the KG?D series took over.

So....in conclusion I wouldn't invest in a 35-40 year old all ORIGINAL Kawai baby grand for $3500-4500. But if you do keep my # in case you need to refurbish either said piano and it will cost you more $ than the final out the door purchase price of either piano.
Just by opinion!

Pianobroker, what's the expected life of the pinblock and soundboard on these Japanese pianos?

There was this Yamaha from the 40's nearby but I didn't get a chance to go check it out :p

I'd say that was a blessing for you. It is definitely a gray market piano being of the 40s. Probably was in some ancient Buddist temple outside of Hamamatsu.

Well the Japanese both Yamaha and Kawai utilized less than #1 size tuning pins even smaller than the European standard. One doesn't need to address the pinblock first time around unless... it was damaged for some reason. Now the soundboard would probably sustain maybe another 40+ years but to fully restore this piano for 10-15K+ would seem to be kinda Nutz,don't you think ?.

The question is when the time comes "Should I fully restore said piano for ?$ or should I buy a brand new improved one for the same $.

This predictament doesn't apply to Steinway restoration.

With the dollar falling so fast, local rebuild labor might end up cheaper than importing a new piano

Thanks for the insight!

Lilia,

PB a stick in the mud? Not hardly. But there are enough exceptions to hard and fast age rules, especially in a climate like we have, that, well . . .

The 5'1" 350 "artisan" level culminated in the KG-1 C and D (GE1-GE20?) . . . the KG-1 E and A grew to 5'5", little newer, better sound depending on your preference, leading into the current RX-1 . . . did Kawai think the 5 1 was undernourished? Who knows, but the e and a’s are considerably more than 3 to 4k . . .

I played a '67 350 a while back, the dealer wanted 7 grand for, I think. Pretty fair piano in walnut. Not a bad player in that range . . . remember, pianos don’t come with an expiration date . . .

The wonderful world of pianos. Let’s see . . . If you’re new at this and since you will need one, might start looking for a tuner, someone practical, not too glib or given to ardent spirits . . . if one of these checks out and isn’t headed for the sanatorium anytime soon or already mummified or DOA (I’m talking about the piano, not the tuner) prices are attractive enough (a little less never hurts) . . . it all depends on your market and what else is out there . . .

Mike

You always give good advice, Pianobroker, and I’m in no way qualified to disagree or even debate with you on anything regarding pianos; but I must say that we live in two different worlds when it comes to used piano prices. It would be really nice if us meager consumers could buy a decent pre-owned piano for what you dealers are able to buy them for, but that is almost always not the case.

I saw an all original Kawai 350 from the late 1970’s (that needed work) at a piano dealer, and they were asking $8000 for it (in it’s original condition). It is rare to see any Kawai or Yamaha baby grand piano, at any age, for sale for less than $3K or $4K.

I don’t know, maybe I’m out of touch with current, real-world prices for used pianos (not that I'm in the market to buy one).

All the best!

Rick

Rickster, Let me give you an extreme example. If one could purchase a high quality Chinese baby grand for 6K BRAND NEW why would one spend $4000-4500 for a near 40 year old piano that is probably not as good quality wise as these new pianos on the scene today. Don't get me wrong. I've had many many preowned Kawai KG1C and 350 over the past 15 years. I personally like the KG1C but comparing a 35 yr. old original one to a BRAND NEW piano, it's a no brainer and the piano industry knows it.
Even though piano industry professionals are aware of this fact, it actually takes years for the piano consumer to catch on even for PIANO WORLD members.
One could either get a BRAND NEW Kawai GM10 for way way less than 10K and not that much more than 6K for that comparable better Chinese manufacturer.
Well that's my argument in the court of Piano World. Havent litigated a case in a while.

Great advice, Pianobroker! Hey, you'll get no further argument from me... I rest my case!

Maybe that old, worn-out Kawai 350 for $8K at that piano dealer was a reverse psychology strategy to help steer customers toward the new Bergmann and Falcone grands he had in his store.

All the best!

Rick

PB,

Because of the rising yen and slowing availability of used japanese pianos, among a few other reasons, dealers can realize more profit off the new Chinese pianos. . .

Is profit more appealing than offering variety to suit the temper of the annoyingly rare piano buyer?

I would agree with you that likely as not when players compare tone and touch between used Japanese and new Chinese pianos, the new contrivances are sorely unappreciated . . . However, I doubt if the reasons are simply naivete or an unwillingness to transend tradition (isn't that the piano industry's problem?)and more likely the ability to listen to the piano rather than the salesman . . .

So, if a piano offers better perceived value in both sound and touch, despite a profit margin thin as some retailer’s scruples, will the retailer choose serving the hapless piano player’s lofty faculties or watching the gold pile up on the counter?

A high quality Chinese grand for 6k? That’s a joke. Right?


Mike

Chipped in here a bit late,

but I want to come to the defense of the 350. I have a 1968 model, all original, which turned out - by design or sheer luck - to be a quite decent piano after recent decently performed voicing and regulation which cost me $250 for 4 hours' work.

In fairness it has had limited / occasional use until 1987 when I obtained it, and still light use after that. But I have moved it a few times and the locations have not always been one hundred per cent ideal.

Still, the way this piano 'came to life' during the recent service was an eye opener. Sure there are buzzes in a bass string or two. But the overall sound is very, very satisfactory to me, and the touch is as good and even as I can wish for IMHO. Much much nicer than any so-called 'reconditioned' piano of similar age I could sample.

It's amazing what a voicing can do for sustain! And how excellent overall balance can mask shortcomings in individual registers (i.e. bass).

Prior to the service, I was not happy with the piano and looked around plenty at other used pianos - some quite expensive 'big name' ones too, plus new ones in the lower price ranges.

Since the service I have not visited the piano showrooms even once. I have been too busy playing and enjoying my own piano.

So - one might just be very happy after a sealing a deal like the one mentioned by the OP. But the risk remains.

And like I always say, it's not the age it's the mileage, and if I had the option of picking used Yamaha or Kawai or new $6K Chinese whatever, I would feel more comfortable with the major brands....assuming it passes a tech check. I don't necessarily think that "Red Autumn" has the only usable 40 year old Japanese piano. I have seen plenty of older Japanese pianos on Craigslist for this kind of money and in many cases could turn out to be a great deal. Most used pianos do NOT see conservatory use/abuse. Most are furniture!

I'm more wary with the pinblock getting old. A 40-year-old pinblock has been holding against all that pressure for 40 years plus humidity changes with or without use. I had asked before about this and what I gathered is that after 40, don't be surprised if you need to use larger pins, and if you go beyond that significantly, new block.

Pinblocks get old. OK, how many times was the piano tuned during the last 40 years? Moving the pins back and forth tends to loosen them somewhat. Those pinblocks have quite a few laminations generally, lots of glue along with the wood. Even older pinblocks, with only say 7 laminations can hold up over long periods of time providing that this is not a conservatory environment where they are tuned more frequently. I was greatly surprised by a pinblock on my vintage 1909 Weber. When I got it, it had already been restrung once back in the 60's, but, they restrung to the original pins which were size 1's. They were still all tight enough to hold a tuning with no problems, and this WAS an institutional instrument, bought from a university. Evaluate each piano as an entity, on its own merits. If the piano needs re-stringing, provided you didn't overpay on the front end, the cost should be $2K or under and that would include a new pinblock. The cost of materials is roughly $100 for the new pinblock, so it is not worth stringing to an old block if you decide to restring. The cost of restringing to an old block will be cheaper because it is not necessary to remove the plate to do so, which saves tech labor.