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Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: DoelKees] #1722263
07/28/11 06:39 AM
07/28/11 06:39 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,863
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
.. Interval Test Rule (ITR). It can be stated as: When an interval is tuned beatless in ET (even across a substantial jump of inharmonicity) and test intervals for the beatless interval exist that include a note that lies within the beatless interval, then the test intervals will be as progressive as possible. Example: When 6:3 octaves are tuned, the m3s and M6s will be at thier smoothest because the middle note of the m3-M6 test lies within the 6:3 octave.

Below graphs for pure 6:3, 8:4, 3:1, 4:2 tunings. I don't see the ITR validated.

Regarding if CM3's still give ET: I don't know what ET is in the presence of a break in inharmonicity.

Appreciate the rest of your comments but have nothing to add.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Kees


You make a good point about what ET is in the presence of a break in iH. I haven’t figured out a workable definition in the presence of iH even without a jump. smile I wonder if it should be called ET in pianos at all. PT for Progressive Temperament may be better.

Comparing your latest graphs (again, many, many thanks) with the previous ones, I find it interesting that the 6:3 octave showed a better tempering of the M3s than even using CM3s.

As far as validating the ITR, using this one particular scaling may be too much for reasonable validation. No I am not asking you to do further research. Just want to bring up the point. And also if you, as the one that proscribed the ET algorithm, do not know what ET is in the presence of a break in iH, then we cannot say that the graphs invalidate the ITR either. However, the analysis with theoretical jumps did show the ITR to be workable.

Please don’t think I am being down on your analysis. It is much better than I could do. I know how difficult this stuff is. And I agree that the graphs do not validate the rule. But I wouldn’t say that they invalidate it either.

I notice that the graphs for 3:1 and 4:2 do show the smoothest tempering for fifths/octaves and fourths/fifths respectively. Perhaps that is what is missing in the validation on the RBIs. The complimentary intervals of m6s for M3s and m3s for M6s are not shown. If they were, it may validate the ITR after all. The rule is about a pair of intervals, not a single one.

And no, I am not asking you to include these intervals. I am certain, for my own use at least, that the ITR is workable, even if it might not be provable. They sure are Great Graphs, though… wink


Jeff Deutschle
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Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: UnrightTooner] #1722290
07/28/11 08:01 AM
07/28/11 08:01 AM
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Chicagoland
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I suppose for me the short answer is octaves, and extended 4ths and 5ths rule.

The longer answer? I have a sneaking suspicion that (for a generation) tuners may have been asking the wrong question... What aural or ETD methods produce the most evenly progressing RBIs? (3rds, 6ths, 10ths etc)

Instead we might be having a different discussion if the question is something like:

How can we - with the tuning lever - make the most positive effect on the expression and musicality of the piano for the performer?

Hmmm?

Ron Koval

Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: UnrightTooner] #1722304
07/28/11 08:39 AM
07/28/11 08:39 AM
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UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Ron:

If where you are leading to is UT, as you usually do, I will admit that there were times that I didn't know what to do with a difficult break and allowed the temperment to be unequal as the best solution.

But let's say we agree on a temperament, it doesn't really matter which one, and there is a problem implementing the temperament across a break. What can be done to make sure that what we are dealing with is a jump in the scaling rather than tuning or stability errors is the next question.

By looking at the test intervals that are involved for the chosen expansion of the temperament, or perhaps even better by choosing an expansion of the temperament to have the best of a certain set of intervals, informed choices can be made when dealing with a break.

If the temperament relies on 4ths and 5ths for its character a 4:2 octave, at least around the break, is a good option. If the RBIs are more important, then 6:3 is a better choice. And if larger octaves are desired where the iH of the scaling is less but smaller octaves where the iH of the scaling is more, the 3:1 P12s can't be beat. And, if needed, the P12s can be somewhat tempered too.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: UnrightTooner] #1722578
07/28/11 05:17 PM
07/28/11 05:17 PM
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Chicagoland
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Nah, tonal tunings (UT) are another discussion! I'm trying to avoid single partial matches... Seems like "putting all the eggs in one basket" - depending on the progression of partials being predictable and controlling the tuning by just comparing single partials from two notes. Seems like dealing with tougher instruments it's a given that the partials won't behave and that causes the jumps when controlling at only the single partial level.

Try this crazy idea. Assume you have a "perfect" two octave temperament set - the lowest note being at least a half-octave above the break. Now, going down set the note by whatever makes you comfortable. Now "check" the note by playing together:

octave above
octave +4th above
octave +5th above
double octave

"Tuning by clusters" I find that this cluster helps me nudge the note to a "better" placement on tough instruments. Search for purity of the whole mish-mash. Don't even touch the RBIs...

Your mileage may vary!

Ron Koval

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Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: RonTuner] #1722610
07/28/11 06:36 PM
07/28/11 06:36 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,499
Vancouver, Canada
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Ron: In simulation also forcing a compromise between two intervals (say 6:3 and 4:1) generally looks better than relying on a single partial, even though I assume a perfect partial model, i.e., the inharmonicity can be irregular but the individual partials are in place for a given inharmonicity constant.

Jeff: It occurred to me that proportionally beating CM3's are not entirely correct when the IH curve has a slope.

Instead of

bps(F4A4)/bps(C#4F4) =
bps(C#4F4)/bps(A3C#4) =
bps(A3C#4)/bps(F3A3)

these should be <~ (a little less than) instead of = if the IH curves goes up of F3-A4.

Probably the difference is too small to be relevant to practice.

Kees

Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: UnrightTooner] #1722653
07/28/11 08:19 PM
07/28/11 08:19 PM
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Posts: 2,499
Vancouver, Canada
DoelKees Offline

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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
You make a good point about what ET is in the presence of a break in iH. I haven’t figured out a workable definition in the presence of iH even without a jump. smile I wonder if it should be called ET in pianos at all. PT for Progressive Temperament may be better.

Perhaps a good definition would be ET is when we have PI (progressive intervals) and AO (acceptable octaves):

PI) All intervals with partials up to 5 (or 6 if you like) are progressive: bps(on lower note) <= bps(on higher note).

That's not enough, as tuning all strings to A=440 would satisfy this. We need to bring octaves in. After all a central feature of Western music is that octaves are some kind of "equality".

AO) Octaves are "acceptable". (Vague but maybe we can attach a bps number to it.)

Obviously ET (according to this definition) is not possible without some conditions on the inharmonicity. I don't know (yet) if it's possible on the Wurly currently under consideration. Mathematically it boils down to deciding if a system of well over a thousand inequalities on the 87 pitches has a solution or not.

Kees

Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: RonTuner] #1722864
07/29/11 06:32 AM
07/29/11 06:32 AM
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Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Originally Posted by RonTuner
Nah, tonal tunings (UT) are another discussion! I'm trying to avoid single partial matches... Seems like "putting all the eggs in one basket" - depending on the progression of partials being predictable and controlling the tuning by just comparing single partials from two notes. Seems like dealing with tougher instruments it's a given that the partials won't behave and that causes the jumps when controlling at only the single partial level.

Try this crazy idea. Assume you have a "perfect" two octave temperament set - the lowest note being at least a half-octave above the break. Now, going down set the note by whatever makes you comfortable. Now "check" the note by playing together:

octave above
octave +4th above
octave +5th above
double octave

"Tuning by clusters" I find that this cluster helps me nudge the note to a "better" placement on tough instruments. Search for purity of the whole mish-mash. Don't even touch the RBIs...

Your mileage may vary!

Ron Koval


Thanks, Ron:

I regularly do that sort of thing without the octave + 4th, but with 5ths and 10ths. When tuning 4:2 octaves by expanding the temperament downward with 5ths, what will generally happen when reaching the break is a “hitch” in the 10ths, 12ths and 15ths. The only way I know that this is a scaling problem, and not a tuning problem, is because so many notes have already been tuned and agree with each other. So then what is a non-mish-mash person to do?

I have to agree that a single partial, as in ETD tuning, or a single partial match, as in keeping a particular interval progressive, is too rigid. Holding to such schemes can result in unwanted effects.

There is a middle ground of using two specific partial matches, meaning the best tuning for a pair of intervals. This is what can be done with a pair of intervals that are tests for a larger interval when that larger interval is used as the basis for expanding the temperament.

Do you follow what I am saying, Ron? No need to agree, but do you understand? To me this is a coherent way of tuning rather than a mish-mash. Of course if there is an obnoxiously wild partial it needs to be dealt with in some way, but that sort of thing cannot be predicted.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: DoelKees] #1722865
07/29/11 06:36 AM
07/29/11 06:36 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,863
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Ron: In simulation also forcing a compromise between two intervals (say 6:3 and 4:1) generally looks better than relying on a single partial, even though I assume a perfect partial model, i.e., the inharmonicity can be irregular but the individual partials are in place for a given inharmonicity constant.

Jeff: It occurred to me that proportionally beating CM3's are not entirely correct when the IH curve has a slope.

Instead of

bps(F4A4)/bps(C#4F4) =
bps(C#4F4)/bps(A3C#4) =
bps(A3C#4)/bps(F3A3)

these should be <~ (a little less than) instead of = if the IH curves goes up of F3-A4.

Probably the difference is too small to be relevant to practice.

Kees


I think it is VERY relevant in practice. I notice it all the time. Hockey-stick bridges, what I understand Del refers to fore-shortening, cause the M3s to be much, much slower above the break when keeping a steady octave. That is clearly shown in your graphs when 4:2 octaves are tuned.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: DoelKees] #1722869
07/29/11 07:03 AM
07/29/11 07:03 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,863
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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UnrightTooner  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
You make a good point about what ET is in the presence of a break in iH. I haven’t figured out a workable definition in the presence of iH even without a jump. smile I wonder if it should be called ET in pianos at all. PT for Progressive Temperament may be better.

Perhaps a good definition would be ET is when we have PI (progressive intervals) and AO (acceptable octaves):

PI) All intervals with partials up to 5 (or 6 if you like) are progressive: bps(on lower note) <= bps(on higher note).

That's not enough, as tuning all strings to A=440 would satisfy this. We need to bring octaves in. After all a central feature of Western music is that octaves are some kind of "equality".

AO) Octaves are "acceptable". (Vague but maybe we can attach a bps number to it.)

Obviously ET (according to this definition) is not possible without some conditions on the inharmonicity. I don't know (yet) if it's possible on the Wurly currently under consideration. Mathematically it boils down to deciding if a system of well over a thousand inequalities on the 87 pitches has a solution or not.

Kees


It may simplify things if you just consider octaves to be an interval with a progression like any other interval. But then the next question is which partial matches? Across a break, it is only possible to have one octave partial match be progressive. At least I think so. Perhaps a ridiculously wide octave would allow all partial matches to be progressive. The steeper the progression curve, the more wiggle room as when comparing RBIs to SBIs.

Now thinking more about having all notes tuned to 440, no I do not think all intervals would be progressive. All intervals would be essentially unisons, but only at the 1:1 partial match. The 2:2, 3:3 etc partial matches would be all over the place – non-progressive. Or you could actually look at the traditional partial matches of 3:2, 4:3, etc and find non-progressive “intervals”.

But if you made octaves, say 4 times the frequency of the octave below, then that would give more wiggle room. Maybe that is the solution. For any given iH curve, there is an octave ratio that will allow all partial matches (up to 6, 7, 8?) to be progressive.

I keep coming back to 12ths with the P5-P8 test. The 12ths would not have to be pure. They could be progressively tempered, and we are only dealing with up to the 3rd partial. At least something useable would be defined.

It's fun to think about. smile


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: UnrightTooner] #1722882
07/29/11 07:51 AM
07/29/11 07:51 AM
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Mark R. Offline
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Jeff,

I'm a bit slow in the test note department. How would P5-P8 test for a P12?

Also, I'm wondering whether it's really not good enough to listen to a whole partial envelope, e.g. when tuning an octave.


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Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: Mark R.] #1722887
07/29/11 07:59 AM
07/29/11 07:59 AM
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Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Mark R.
Jeff,

I'm a bit slow in the test note department. How would P5-P8 test for a P12?

Also, I'm wondering whether it's really not good enough to listen to a whole partial envelope, e.g. when tuning an octave.


The 3:2 fifth will always beat the same as the 2:1 eighth when the 3:1 twelfth is pure.

For my ear, there is a large fuzzy area that an good sounding octave can sit in. Unless there is an obnoxiously wild partial, I do not tune octave directly very much. I get much better results by creating an octave by tuning a fifth from a previous fourth. I may be in a very small minority on this one. I don't think I can help you. frown


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: UnrightTooner] #1722911
07/29/11 08:42 AM
07/29/11 08:42 AM
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Chicagoland
RonTuner Offline
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner

I have to agree that a single partial, as in ETD tuning, or a single partial match, as in keeping a particular interval progressive, is too rigid. Holding to such schemes can result in unwanted effects.
*******snip****
Do you follow what I am saying, Ron? No need to agree, but do you understand? To me this is a coherent way of tuning rather than a mish-mash. Of course if there is an obnoxiously wild partial it needs to be dealt with in some way, but that sort of thing cannot be predicted.


Oh, yeah! I understand - just was presenting another view. I too notice that the interval of the octave often has some wiggle room. (except on some really nasty little pianos!) In fact, all of the slower beating intervals give a little wiggle room, that's what I'm trying to use by combining them to find the best spot for all.

I tend to live in the unison and slower beating intervals... almost like wine tasting, where tasting the reds spoils the tongue for the delicate whites, listening to RBIs spoils my ear to do the delicate work on the SBIs... (could be just me!) I'm happy to set a really good temperament up a little higher than normal to take advantage of consistent inharmonicity and then let the scale designer influence the temperament of the 3rds through the break as those notes match what is tuned higher up.

Since the Verituner's spinner is driven by multiple partials, based on the volume heard, I've even tried locking the machine on the lower note and playing different combination of notes above. The machine then displays how all of the mish-mash above (depending on the notes played) read compared to the tuning calculation for that lower note. Since the needle display will point to a certain cents sharp or flat, then I can set that lower note to match.

Kindof a direct comparison approach using new technology...

Since so much of aural tuning depends on what fits under the hands, I've been trying to expand the comparisons without using the sostenuto pedal or props to play expanded intervals. Make any sense?

Ron Koval

Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: RonTuner] #1722915
07/29/11 08:53 AM
07/29/11 08:53 AM
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UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Originally Posted by RonTuner
.....

Since so much of aural tuning depends on what fits under the hands, I've been trying to expand the comparisons without using the sostenuto pedal or props to play expanded intervals. Make any sense?

Ron Koval


Only to a point. Pianists do play with their hands a distance from each other on occasions and also play large arpeggios. But smaller intervals can be tuned and then larger intervals checked. Or a third note can be added to achieve a desired blend. I really like my 12ths spanner.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: RonTuner] #1722945
07/29/11 09:46 AM
07/29/11 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by RonTuner

Try this crazy idea. .... Now "check" the note by playing together:

octave above
octave +4th above
octave +5th above

...Don't even touch the RBIs...

Ron Koval


I would not call this a crazy idea. As a reviewer of the OnlyPure tuning software and participant in discussions about the aural OnlyPure method on the pianotech list you are probably aware that this technique is a basic part of the protocols of the aural OnlyPure method. As you mentioned correctly, even no RBI (rapid beating intervals) touch is required, as i have succesfully demonstrated recently at the 2011 KC convention.




Last edited by Bernhard Stopper; 07/29/11 10:40 AM.
Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: UnrightTooner] #1722953
07/29/11 10:01 AM
07/29/11 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
I really like my 12ths spanner.


That wonderful tool you continuously ignore to give credit for:
http://www.piano-stopper.de/html/stopper-stimmung.html



Last edited by Bernhard Stopper; 07/29/11 10:08 AM.
Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: UnrightTooner] #1722976
07/29/11 10:39 AM
07/29/11 10:39 AM
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Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Mr. Stopper:

No offense meant. I have given you credit in the past. It seems unecessary to do so every time I talk about using the tool. People do not give credit to Cristofori everytime they mention a piano. Besides, the tool itself is one thing, how it is used is another.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: UnrightTooner] #1722977
07/29/11 10:42 AM
07/29/11 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Mr. Stopper:

No offense meant. I have given you credit in the past. It seems unecessary to do so every time I talk about using the tool. People do not give credit to Cristofori everytime they mention a piano. Besides, the tool itself is one thing, how it is used is another.


No. You have not given credit in the past, unless i was asking you to do so.
You were even using a ridiculous name for it later to mock about the trademark name i am using for my temperament and the duodecime spanner. If i remember correctly, it was something like "my schwarzen..(someothernonsense)..tuning-tool"







Last edited by Bernhard Stopper; 07/29/11 10:55 AM.
Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: Bernhard Stopper] #1722979
07/29/11 10:47 AM
07/29/11 10:47 AM
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Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper


No. You have not given credit in the past, unless i was asking you to do so.
You were even using a ridiculous name for it later to mock about the trademark name i am using for my temperament and the duodecime spanner. If i remember correctly, it was something like "my schwarzen..(someothernonsense)..tuning-tool"



True. It just did not occur to me that failing to do so without being asked would cause offense. I really do not understand people very well. frown

And I wish you had said something about the fanciful name at the time.

Last edited by UnrightTooner; 07/29/11 11:34 AM.

Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: UnrightTooner] #1722995
07/29/11 11:12 AM
07/29/11 11:12 AM
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UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Folks:

Mr. Stopper inspired me to make a tool that spans a twelfth. Unwittingly I have offended him by not giving him credit for the idea and also having them available to the consumer. I meant no offense and publically apologize. I think it best if I just do not mention this tool when discussing tuning.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: UnrightTooner] #1723001
07/29/11 11:29 AM
07/29/11 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Folks:

I think it best if I just do not mention this tool when discussing tuning.


It is just a question of being polite to give acknowledge to someone for something useful that has been provided and your last sentence indicates that you want to proceed just with this behaviour. What offends me is that you make things about the duodecime temperament going into discussions, that they appear as your own ideas. For example the beat masking effect in three note combinations of octaves fourths and fifths, that you threw into the discusssions, as if they were your own findings. Don´t believe that his appeared to be so? Maybe you remember how Bill Bremmer was giving credit to you for the finding of beat masking in ocatve-fourth-fifth combinations about a year ago, just because you were not giving credit to the correct source. Even after he gave credit to you for this, you did nothing to correct him. That is what offends me, nothing else.





Last edited by Bernhard Stopper; 07/29/11 11:57 AM.
Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: UnrightTooner] #1723012
07/29/11 11:47 AM
07/29/11 11:47 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,499
Vancouver, Canada
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Mr. Stopper inspired me to make a tool that spans a twelfth. Unwittingly I have offended him by not giving him credit for the idea and also having them available to the consumer. I meant no offense and publically apologize. I think it best if I just do not mention this tool when discussing tuning.

I made one from a clothhanger. I would really like to have something you can turn so you can use it for double octaves also.

Kees

Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: UnrightTooner] #1723019
07/29/11 11:56 AM
07/29/11 11:56 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,863
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Mr. Stopper:

I am not Brenke, and will not respond any further.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: UnrightTooner] #1723061
07/29/11 12:56 PM
07/29/11 12:56 PM
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partistic Offline
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A couple of thoughts/questions I have about the interval test rule, might be wrong.

If you tune any type octave and make the intervals progressive in the octave, wouldn't they stay progressive when tuning outside the temperament octave no matter the octave type as long as you are using the same type octave, assuming the IH changes smoothly?

If you would temper the P12ths, would you make them wide or narrow? How do you use the P5-P8 test? Do you use it to check if the P12ths are pure?

Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: partistic] #1723069
07/29/11 01:13 PM
07/29/11 01:13 PM
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Posts: 5,863
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Originally Posted by partistic
A couple of thoughts/questions I have about the interval test rule, might be wrong.

If you tune any type octave and make the intervals progressive in the octave, wouldn't they stay progressive when tuning outside the temperament octave no matter the octave type as long as you are using the same type octave, assuming the IH changes smoothly?

If you would temper the P12ths, would you make them wide or narrow? How do you use the P5-P8 test? Do you use it to check if the P12ths are pure?


If the iH changes smoothly enough, yes, all intervals will remain progressive. But that is not what happens with a scaling break.

I would prefer slightly narrow twelfths to wide twelfths, but that is just a preference.

The better test for twelfths is the M6-M17 test. the P5-P8 test is just as valid, but the beats are very slow and there are other audible partial matches for the P5 and P8 that can confuse things. The important part (for me) is that when pure twelfths are tuned across the break the P5 and the P8 should be at thier smoothest.

Mr. Stopper, you are very welcome to add your thoughts on this. smile


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: UnrightTooner] #1723079
07/29/11 01:37 PM
07/29/11 01:37 PM
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Posts: 284
Germany
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Bernhard Stopper Offline
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner

Mr. Stopper, you are very welcome to add your thoughts on this. smile


Thanks for the invitation, but as Patrick Wingren mentioned wise, we old guys better stay off the internet.. wink


Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: Bernhard Stopper] #1723325
07/29/11 10:39 PM
07/29/11 10:39 PM
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Vancouver, Canada
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Bernhard:

Since you inserted your off-topic comments in this thread, in my opinion you owe us your views on how well OnlyPure (whatever that is precisely; as it is not a published method I do not know) fares in the presence of jumps in scaling on poorly scaled pianos.

Kees

Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: Bob Conrad] #1723696
07/30/11 06:42 PM
07/30/11 06:42 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 6,264
Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
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Originally Posted by Bob Conrad
pppat:

Obviously, I'm an AccuTuner guy. Even though I do sell them, I make my money using one. Believe me, if I thought the software based systems were better, I would be using one.



Bob,

Because your web site is down, all the PMs being sent to you are bouncing and ending up coming to me.
Please either change your email to something that works, or temporarily stop accepting PMs.



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Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: DoelKees] #1724369
08/01/11 06:32 AM
08/01/11 06:32 AM
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Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Bernhard:

Since you inserted your off-topic comments in this thread, in my opinion you owe us your views on how well OnlyPure (whatever that is precisely; as it is not a published method I do not know) fares in the presence of jumps in scaling on poorly scaled pianos.

Kees


I do not think Mr. Stopper owes us anything. And I say all this without any animosity. As I understand it, the OnlyPure aural method does not lend itself to analysis, it has to be learned. I assume that it is in some way similar to how I hear the tempering of fifths directly, without counting beats. And it is a subject, as you know, I do not see much value in discussing.

However, the OnlyPure electronic method has been documented. A while ago Mr. Swafford posted some audio of electronic tuning on a concert grand and also, I think, a spinet.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: UnrightTooner] #1725007
08/02/11 03:51 AM
08/02/11 03:51 AM
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Posts: 2,625
Philadelphia area
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Dave B Offline
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This can drive us nuts if we let it. Every piano has these jumps in beat rates due to scaling and enharmonicity. And, we all know that anything from the quality of the strings used to the person cutting the bridge can affect the evenness of the beat rates. Manufacturer drift is what I think this is called. I find the most stable and musical tunings are develop from a system of checks that references to the middle of the piano. i.e.: the M3rd F4-A4. Check the F3,F2, and F1 to the quality of the M3rd F4-A4. Inversely, into the treble Check the A5,A6,A7 to the quality of the same M3rd F4-A4. This type of checking can be done using as many intervals as time will allow. Ultimately the low bass octaves will play in tune and in rhythm with the high treble octaves.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
Re: Beatrate jumps across a break [Re: RonTuner] #1725242
08/02/11 01:16 PM
08/02/11 01:16 PM
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Bob Conrad Offline
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Hey Ron,
One of the problems with using a number of different partials over the break area, is deciding which intervals, and where, smoothly progressing intervals will be found.

If checking for 3rds, and they are uneven, it's OK because the 4ths are good here. And if the 4th are smooth, but the 3rds are uneven, again, it's OK, because the 4ths are good there. The best that can be hoped for would be equally uneven intervals. Which of course, isn't all bad!

To stick with the 'eggs and baskets' description, jumping around using different partials in this A2/A4 area produces smaller and more numerous 'baskets' of different sizes and colors for the eggs.

Determining the width of the temperament double and single octaves(s) (in my case, A2/A4, A3/A4, and A2/A3) and then 'filling in the blanks' using a single interval priority will at least result in a smooth progression of at least 1 interval over a 2 octave temperament range. But the double and single octaves have to be right!

As long as the overall octave's widths are wide enough for the 5ths, and narrow enough for the 4ths, using a smooth set of numbers will at least result a smooth interval (for me, M3rds). And using the 4th partial (M3rds) will most often result in perfectly acceptable 4ths and 5ths.

On the smaller scales, most of the time A2 is below the 'break'. Having the 'break' contained within the A2/A4 temperament range provides an opportunity for the 'break' to be accounted for when establishing the widths of the A2/A4, A3/A4, A2/A3 double and single octaves, before 'filling in the blanks'.

A final note on adjusting the width of the A2/A3/A4 single and double octaves. . . . The slower beating intervals are really difficult to hear precisely.

[This shows up on the AccuTuner's light rotation too, since the speed of the rotation represents a beat (lights all on, on one diagonal to lights all on, on the next diagonal = 1 beat). So using this light rotation speed to 'describe' the speed of the beating, is very handy when visually 'hearing' the speed of the beat.]

For example, adjusting the width of the A3/A4 2:1 octave by .2 c. or .3 c. is really hard to hear in the 3rd/17th check. Al Sanderson has said the width of a M3rd must be changed by .3 c. before we can hear the difference. And for many .4 or .5 is required to 'definitely' hear the beat rate change. And that is on a M3rd! Of course I use an AccuTuner for all this. Good luck doing this totally aurally.

Because the beat rates are so slow, the slow beating intervals (8vas, 5ths) are even harder to hear. Most of the time when we move them enough to easily 'hear' the beat change, we have moved them more than .3 c.. Hearing 1 beat in 5 seconds is tough. Is it really 1.1 beat in 5.5 seconds? .9 beat in 4.5 seconds? Is that close enough? What is hard to hear in a 5th or 8va, can be heard in a 3rd.

Keep in mind, moving A3 by .3 c. at the 2nd partial, moves the 4th partial of A3 (A5) by .6 cents. These small changes are very useful for getting the most out of the piano and are used to determine the width of the temperament double and single octaves, and are ultimately 'audible' in the tuning.

Bob Conrad, Tucson, AZ

Last edited by Bob Conrad; 08/03/11 03:50 AM.
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