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#1724191 - 07/31/11 09:12 PM Argerich has lost her touch?  
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I've made a topic out of fun, comparing Yuja and Argerich in what seems to become a copied pose.

Since starting piano, Argerich quickly became my favorite pianist. She seemed almost godlike in the sense that her speed and precision were amazing, while still retaining musicality. She didn't flourish over the top (think LL) nor was her playing grossly superfluous.

But some believe that Argerich has lost it with age, that she's beat up with life, that newer pianists like Y. Wang and Lisista have surpassed her.

I don't know... Although she's old, she's still playing virtuosically at Verbier, and still alive.

But to argue who the greatest female pianist of the 20th-21st century is.. I have to vote for Argerich hands-down. At her prime, you could argue she was better than Horowitz.

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#1724194 - 07/31/11 09:16 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]  
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Originally Posted by slerk
But some believe that Argerich has lost it with age, that she's beat up with life, that newer pianists like Y. Wang and Lisista have surpassed her.

Who thinks that? Who is "some"?

No one said anything of the kind on your other thread, if that's where you're getting this reading of the masses from.

I don't think this is a commonly held opinion at all.

-J


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
#1724197 - 07/31/11 09:24 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]  
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70 is not really that old. wink

Last edited by carey; 07/31/11 09:25 PM.

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#1724198 - 07/31/11 09:25 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: beet31425]  
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Originally Posted by beet31425
Originally Posted by slerk
But some believe that Argerich has lost it with age, that she's beat up with life, that newer pianists like Y. Wang and Lisista have surpassed her.

Who thinks that? Who is "some"?

No one said anything of the kind on your other thread, if that's where you're getting this reading of the masses from.

I don't think this is a commonly held opinion at all.

-J


It's not necessary to name names. They are just opinions that you can assert or refute here.

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#1724200 - 07/31/11 09:28 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]  
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People said they've surpassed her technically. Technical ability doesn't make one artist better than another..



#1724203 - 07/31/11 09:36 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]  
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Please do not compare other pianists to Horowitz.................



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
#1724208 - 07/31/11 09:50 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: beet31425]  
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Originally Posted by beet31425

I don't think this is a commonly held opinion at all.

(I'm listening to Mahler 6- scherzo follows 1st movement, as it SHOULD, and not diluted by the premature appearance of the slow movement, IMO.)

Where was I...

Argerich has always been fair game, and when one scales the heights of accomplishment, of course there are going to be people who question her mastery, and that is fair enough.

It doesn't really mean anything to me anymore. I put her on the level of a Horowitz, Rachmaninov and Richter, and that is all that really matters. I have heard the recordings of those guys -WOW factor to the highest degree!- but Argerich is there too.


Jason
#1724209 - 07/31/11 09:53 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]  
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Hmm. I still prefer Argerich to Yuja Wang and Lisitsa. But in general, I prefer older (and passed on) pianists to younger pianists, such as Marc-Andre Hamelin, Andre Laplante, Stephen Hough, Alicia de Larrocha, Mitsuko Uchida, Emanuel Ax, Radu Lupu, Sokolov, etc.

#1724214 - 07/31/11 10:04 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]  
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Here, as opposed to there
I'm guessing that slerk is referring to the comments I made about Argerich/Yuja's technical skill. Slerk, I am not saying that Argerich has lost her "touch". I'm simply saying that Yuja has surpassed her from a standpoint of technique. Technique, however, does not a complete musician make. Argerich, make no mistake, is a phenomenal pianist by any standard. Her technique in her prime was absolutely second to none. Yuja, however, possesses technique like none I've yet witnessed. I've heard thousands of pianists and for me to say that her technique blows me away, well, it's saying something. She has a great deal yet to learn as a musician, however, and I'm hoping that with age and experience her playing will mature as well.

Additionally, I'd like to say that I, for the life of me, don't understand the fascination with Lisitsa.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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#1724221 - 07/31/11 10:12 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]  
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Originally Posted by beet31425
Who thinks that? Who is "some"?
Seriously, you can say and think whatever you'd like, but claiming "some say" naturally begs the question, "like who?" At the age of 70, I think she still has time to get even better smile

Originally Posted by slerk
It's not necessary to name names.
The natural response to "Yeah, I kinda made that up..." wink

-Daniel


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#1724222 - 07/31/11 10:15 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: stores]  
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Originally Posted by stores
Additionally, I'd like to say that I, for the life of me, don't understand the fascination with Lisitsa.
Her accessibility adds to her appeal I think. What I find fascinating is all the bashing she receives. Greatest pianist ever? Nah... Great pianist anyways? Absolutely!


Currently working on:
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#1724223 - 07/31/11 10:15 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]  
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Some respect, guys!!

And what Jason (her fan) said.

#1724226 - 07/31/11 10:22 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: stores]  
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Originally Posted by stores
I'm guessing that slerk is referring to the comments I made about Argerich/Yuja's technical skill. Slerk, I am not saying that Argerich has lost her "touch". I'm simply saying that Yuja has surpassed her from a standpoint of technique. Technique, however, does not a complete musician make. Argerich, make no mistake, is a phenomenal pianist by any standard. Her technique in her prime was absolutely second to none. Yuja, however, possesses technique like none I've yet witnessed. I've heard thousands of pianists and for me to say that her technique blows me away, well, it's saying something. She has a great deal yet to learn as a musician, however, and I'm hoping that with age and experience her playing will take mature as well.

Additionally, I'd like to say that I, for the life of me, don't understand the fascination with Lisitsa.


I agree with everything you said. smile I'm intrigued to hear Yuja's playing in 10 or 20 years.

#1724230 - 07/31/11 10:26 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: Orange Soda King]  
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Hmm. I still prefer Argerich to Yuja Wang and Lisitsa.


Lisitsa? Really?

#1724231 - 07/31/11 10:26 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: Orange Soda King]  
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Originally Posted by stores
I'm guessing that slerk is referring to the comments I made about Argerich/Yuja's technical skill. Slerk, I am not saying that Argerich has lost her "touch". I'm simply saying that Yuja has surpassed her from a standpoint of technique. Technique, however, does not a complete musician make. Argerich, make no mistake, is a phenomenal pianist by any standard. Her technique in her prime was absolutely second to none. Yuja, however, possesses technique like none I've yet witnessed. I've heard thousands of pianists and for me to say that her technique blows me away, well, it's saying something. She has a great deal yet to learn as a musician, however, and I'm hoping that with age and experience her playing will take mature as well.

Additionally, I'd like to say that I, for the life of me, don't understand the fascination with Lisitsa.


I agree with everything you said. smile I'm intrigued to hear Yuja's playing in 10 or 20 years.


Wang is really, really popular among the Asian community, I can tell you that. More so than Li Yundi or Lang Lang (obviously). She has a very charming nature and I do enjoy her playing.

Valentina is also really down to earth. I was reading earlier here that she stayed with a forum member for practicing, and things like that..

But I think to be a great pianist who sells well to the public, you need another touch of personality. Argerich had that; almost as if she played "hard to get" with fans. You could also be popular by being extremely down to earth and friendly.

And why must we not compare to Horowitz? Well, with him, people either love him or hate him.

#1724232 - 07/31/11 10:28 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: Damon]  
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Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Hmm. I still prefer Argerich to Yuja Wang and Lisitsa.


Lisitsa? Really?


Yeah. I don't like Lisitsa too much... I heard that she has a MEAN Liszt concerto 1 though, I should hear it. And I do like how she "lets it rip" in the Rachmaninoff 1st sonata, but there are other things in her playing of it I don't like too much...

#1724233 - 07/31/11 10:30 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: stores]  
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Originally Posted by stores
Yuja, however, possesses technique like none I've yet witnessed. I've heard thousands of pianists and for me to say that her technique blows me away, well, it's saying something.

stores, is there a particular YouTube you could recommend? I only say this because I value your input.

As for technique, well this is hard to beat:


Jason
#1724235 - 07/31/11 10:33 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: Orange Soda King]  
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Hmm. I still prefer Argerich to Yuja Wang and Lisitsa.


Lisitsa? Really?


Yeah. I don't like Lisitsa too much... I heard that she has a MEAN Liszt concerto 1 though, I should hear it. And I do like how she "lets it rip" in the Rachmaninoff 1st sonata, but there are other things in her playing of it I don't like too much...


I was just surprised that you would mention her at all. Don't get me wrong, I think she is quite good, but not anywhere near Argerich-good. (and I'd rather listen to Wang than either)

#1724249 - 07/31/11 11:16 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: Orange Soda King]  
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Hmm. I still prefer Argerich to Yuja Wang and Lisitsa.


Lisitsa? Really?


Yeah. I don't like Lisitsa too much... I heard that she has a MEAN Liszt concerto 1 though, I should hear it. And I do like how she "lets it rip" in the Rachmaninoff 1st sonata, but there are other things in her playing of it I don't like too much...


OSK, what do you think of her Chopin etudes? Can you give me a few examples of the things you don't like?


Current:
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Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)
#1724256 - 07/31/11 11:31 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: liszt85]  
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Personally, I think her Chopin Etudes are fine. But I mean, I would rather listen to larger-scale pieces than Chopin Etudes... Such as the Sonatas, Scherzi, Ballades, Polonaise-Fantasie, etc. etc. etc. And I feel that her playing of larger-scale pieces is rather shallow. It's hard to explain in text, but compare her Rachmaninoff Sonata No. 1 to the great (and sadly underrated) John Ogdon's performance.

But in the end, it may just be personal taste. So if we need to agree to disagree, that's perfectly fine with me. smile

#1724261 - 07/31/11 11:36 PM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: Orange Soda King]  
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Personally, I think her Chopin Etudes are fine. But I mean, I would rather listen to larger-scale pieces than Chopin Etudes... Such as the Sonatas, Scherzi, Ballades, Polonaise-Fantasie, etc. etc. etc. And I feel that her playing of larger-scale pieces is rather shallow. It's hard to explain in text, but compare her Rachmaninoff Sonata No. 1 to the great (and sadly underrated) John Ogdon's performance.

But in the end, it may just be personal taste. So if we need to agree to disagree, that's perfectly fine with me. smile


We don't necessarily disagree completely. wink I enjoy her performances of the shorter works. I do go back to watch her etude videos and also go back for some nocturnes and waltzes but never for a concerto or a sonata really. It wasn't a conscious decision that I made and I can certainly see your point.


Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)
#1724272 - 08/01/11 12:10 AM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: Orange Soda King]  
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
But I mean, I would rather listen to larger-scale pieces than Chopin Etudes...

That's the only statement that I disagree with. smile I think Chopin's small-scale works, especially his etudes, are on par with his large-scale works (if not indeed sometimes greater), and I have no preference for the longer pieces. Of course, there is always the issue of overplaying, but that affects small- and large-scale alike.

-J



Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
#1724293 - 08/01/11 01:18 AM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]  
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Neither Wang nor Lisitsa can carry Argerich's music bag as far as I'm concerned, either technically or especially musically.

#1724352 - 08/01/11 05:48 AM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]  
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Lisitsa and Yuja compared to Martha? Let s hear their Bach partitas and judge!

Gavrilyuk, in my opinion, blows both VL and YW out of the water. And recently i was listening to somepieces by Lang lang and Gavrilyuk, same repertoire. And the winner was Alexander again. More and more, fame means nothing. I think Yuja is becoming the female version of lang lang. Hopefully she ll stay away from that. As for technique, i think Hamelin and Volods are out of this world. Yuja s version of Volodos ' Turkis march i heard recently was pretty sloppy in some sections. Anyway it not that what bothers me of her playing. Anyway , she s still what , in her early 20s?

Pogo, i d compare Richter to Horowitz any day of the week!! In Beethoven and Bach , i don t think Volodya would last two rounds!

#1724354 - 08/01/11 06:08 AM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: bplary1300]  
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Originally Posted by bplary1300
People said they've surpassed her technically. Technical ability doesn't make one artist better than another..


It makes them better in the area of technical ability. Technical ability allows an artist to demonstrate their musicality.

#1724360 - 08/01/11 06:54 AM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]  
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Originally Posted by slerk
Yang is really, really popular among the Asian community, I can tell you that. More so than Li Yundi or Lang Lang (obviously).
What do you base this statement on or is just idle speculation?

Originally Posted by slerk
Valentina is also really down to earth. I was reading earlier here that she stayed with a forum member for practicing, and things like that..
How is this relevant to discussing how great a pianist is? Stayed with a forum member....who cares?

Originally Posted by slerk
But I think to be a great pianist who sells well to the public, you need another touch of personality. Argerich had that; almost as if she played "hard to get" with fans. You could also be popular by being extremely down to earth and friendly.
Lisitsa and Wang are IMO nowhere near that category of being a world class pianist who will be remembered as one of the greats. You place far too much emphasis on personality.

If Argerich lives another 20 years and keeps on playing it's probably true that some pianist will surpass her technical skill(or maybe some already have) at one point. I don't see the slightest relevance in discussing something like this. Does anyone expect her to be able to play as well technically when she's 90 as she did when she was younger?

At such a high level of technical skill, I think it's irrelevant to compare technical prowess. Argerich, Hamelin, Kissin, Katsaris, etc. all have supreme technical ability.


Last edited by pianoloverus; 08/01/11 06:59 AM.
#1724377 - 08/01/11 08:03 AM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]  
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Well said PL.

#1724453 - 08/01/11 10:41 AM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]  
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Every performer, particularly instrumentalists and singers, must eventually cope with the limitations brought on by age. (The only exceptions I can think of are those who died tragically young, like Lipatti and Kapell, and Nathan Milstein whose technique at his last concert at 82 was undiminished.)

Pianists are luckier than singers. Piano technique is basically in the brain, so as long as their fingers retain their strength and ccordination, they can continue well into old age. Vocal chords are not as durable and break down at a younger age. Argerich is 70 - that's not old as pianists go. If she's lost anything technically, and from what I can tell she hasn't, she's gained in musical perception.


Hank Drake

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#1724457 - 08/01/11 10:47 AM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: pianoloverus]  
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by slerk
Yang is really, really popular among the Asian community, I can tell you that. More so than Li Yundi or Lang Lang (obviously).
What do you base this statement on or is just idle speculation?

Exactly my thought. What basis?

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by slerk
Valentina is also really down to earth. I was reading earlier here that she stayed with a forum member for practicing, and things like that..
How is this relevant to discussing how great a pianist is? Stayed with a forum member....who cares?

Exactly! We listen to performances NOT because the pianist has done some good deeds!

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by slerk
But I think to be a great pianist who sells well to the public, you need another touch of personality. Argerich had that; almost as if she played "hard to get" with fans. You could also be popular by being extremely down to earth and friendly.
Lisitsa and Wang are IMO nowhere near that category of being a world class pianist who will be remembered as one of the greats. You place far too much emphasis on personality.

If Argerich lives another 20 years and keeps on playing it's probably true that some pianist will surpass her technical skill(or maybe some already have) at one point. I don't see the slightest relevance in discussing something like this. Does anyone expect her to be able to play as well technically when she's 90 as she did when she was younger?

No one can be in tip-top shape all through life. Aging is part of life. One cannot expect Argerich (or any one else for that matter) to be at her best technical prowess when compared to her younger days. Lisitsa and Wang are newcomers who are trying their best to make their niche in this competitive piano world. Though they possess great technical skills, only time can tell if they will be able sustain their popularity. Personally, I believe they both still have room to grow to be top performers. Though their playing can be dazzling and showy, it is still very much playing that focuses on the "veneer". Nevertheless, the bottom line is that such comparison is pointless.


JN
#1724468 - 08/01/11 11:09 AM Re: Argerich has lost her touch? [Re: slerk]  
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Argerich is a fantastic artist and really communicates something deep and profound in the music she plays. I think that as she grows older, her interpretations grow even better. Wang and Lisitisa are musical, but I feel they just don't reach as deep as Argerich and all those other old masters.

Also, is this just me, or does it seem like recently there's a lot of emphasis on looks? Like Wang with her skimpy silk dresses and Lisitsa with her blonde hair blowing all over the place?? IMHO there seems to be a lot of "looks show" going on (who can make the best faces or wear the best designer clothes) and less about the actual music.

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