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This might be going against the spirit of this thread a little bit... but since when would there be 5 World Class pianists competing an amateur competition!?
I'm sorry, but that just irks me. Did I read it wrong?
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I think her terminology was a little overboard. I'd guess she meant more like "very high level for the amateur competitions." Remember, we're not necessarily obsessive about all the phraseology we use in internet posts....
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Well yes, What I meant was the likes of Michael C., Gordon C., Molina, etc. When they start out you know within 5 seconds that they are not the run of the mill amateur. They immediately establish their prowess, and also go to competitions that are of quality and offer a good purse or engagement. I do consider them pretty close to World Class. They do qualify as Amateurs but they are Wow! the minute they begin. They are very close to professional sounding, fabulous technique, etc.
Musica 71
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I had much the same feeling of surprise that you are indicating -- surprise that someone who won all those 'categories' and who apparently was very close to #1 would have 'only' tied for 2nd. I should make more explicit note of my correction. There still isn't an official posting, but I believe Michael, not Gorden, was in the tie with Esfir for the Best Romantic award.
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....very close to professional sounding.... Yes, and we might even leave out the "very close" and it would still be true. I should make more explicit note of my correction. There still isn't an official posting, but I believe Michael, not Gorden, was in the tie with Esfir for the Best Romantic award. OK -- I hadn't noticed that. It makes a difference. I would have still wondered along the lines of what I posted but might not have gone quite so far in my 'theory' of how it all happened.
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I must also say that when Michael Cheung played last in the Finals he was absolutely mesmerizing. I was in tears as were many in the audience. That man has a very incredible ability to connect with the listener. I cannot remember when I was so moved. Were any others here present for those moments? He seemed to touch my soul! Sounds corny I know but his music was SO intense. Another highlight was Gordon's Andante Spianata....SO elegant.
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Middle class means not great pianists but also not bad pianists. You (Mark C), for example, belong to middle class (not really finalist material). These pianists have a chance to get into semifinal, but very unlikely to get into final in a high level amateur competition such as Van Cliburn. Usually middle class have degree in piano performance from lower to mid tier conservatories. High class pianists are those who got into final. They usually graduated from big conservatories or went to big conservatories. Many of them were originally planned to be a concert pianist, but for various reasons, they did not pursue the career. I disagree with this classification. While there is some correlation between prior education and current ability, it's not that strong. I believe none of the six Colorado finalists went to a "big" conservatory; possibly only Esfir went to a conservatory at all. (Anyone with more accurate knowledge, please feel free to chime in.) I am less certain about the WIPAC finalists, as I think Daniel and Ali had a year of conservatory, and I have no specific information about the other competitions this year. You may classify Colorado and WIPAC as less than high level amateur competitions, but Gorden has placed in Paris... For what it's worth, I have no conservatory- or even college-level training, and have not studied under any remotely famous teachers. I didn't advance in either competition I entered this summer, but I don't think I would have been out of place in the semis either time. (This is not to say that I *should* have advanced out of the preliminaries.) I'm clearly not on the same ability level as the finalists in these competitions. However, I don't think that gap is primarily due to my lack of a degree from a big conservatory.
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....plus I have been in finals....
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....plus I have been in finals.... Not in a big competition though.....
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I wasn't denying your basic point about that. But anyway, I'm wondering how you're such an expert on the history of the amateur competitions....
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Agreed, Robert. I never had any formal music training. I only studied privately with teachers (only 1 of them was famous: Vitaly Margulis).
See the great thing about music is that no matter what your training is or your background. You can easily demonstrate your skills/knowledge by playing.
All it takes is a lot of hard work and dedication.
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Middle class means not great pianists but also not bad pianists. You (Mark C), for example, belong to middle class (not really finalist material). These pianists have a chance to get into semifinal, but very unlikely to get into final in a high level amateur competition such as Van Cliburn. Usually middle class have degree in piano performance from lower to mid tier conservatories. High class pianists are those who got into final. They usually graduated from big conservatories or went to big conservatories. Many of them were originally planned to be a concert pianist, but for various reasons, they did not pursue the career. I disagree with this classification. While there is some correlation between prior education and current ability, it's not that strong. I believe none of the six Colorado finalists went to a "big" conservatory; possibly only Esfir went to a conservatory at all. (Anyone with more accurate knowledge, please feel free to chime in.) I am less certain about the WIPAC finalists, as I think Daniel and Ali had a year of conservatory, and I have no specific information about the other competitions this year. You may classify Colorado and WIPAC as less than high level amateur competitions, but Gorden has placed in Paris... For what it's worth, I have no conservatory- or even college-level training, and have not studied under any remotely famous teachers. I didn't advance in either competition I entered this summer, but I don't think I would have been out of place in the semis either time. (This is not to say that I *should* have advanced out of the preliminaries.) I'm clearly not on the same ability level as the finalists in these competitions. However, I don't think that gap is primarily due to my lack of a degree from a big conservatory. First of all, Colorado is not considered a big competition, it is the same level as WIPAC. Colorado does not have the same caliber as the one in Chicago, Boston, Van Cliburn. That is why many finalists do not have music degree in Colorado. You have to be careful with the Gorden and Michael, they are just talented regardless whether they have degree or not, the same as Christopher Shih. However, in general, in big amateur competitions if you disregard all these non degree geniuses (people who do not have degree but great pianists), the rest are just a congregation of ex-piano major. If you were a solid pianist, you would have, at least, advanced to the semifinal. Looking at the list of the semifinalists of the Colorado competition, some of them are kind of weak pianists. If they joined the big competitions, in no way would they advance to the semifinal. Daniel Bertram has master and doctorate in piano performance. Ali got into Oberlin, he just did not want to continue. This does not mean that he is not capable. I am very surprised that you said that it is a weak correlation between education and performance ability. Have you paid attention to those who got into final or semifinal in many amateur competitions?
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Ronald: I think you're coming on way too strong about your points, and for sure your classification of the Colorado and Washington competitions in relation to Boston and Chicago is questionable at best.
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Agreed, Robert. I never had any formal music training. I only studied privately with teachers (only 1 of them was famous: Vitaly Margulis).
See the great thing about music is that no matter what your training is or your background. You can easily demonstrate your skills/knowledge by playing.
All it takes is a lot of hard work and dedication. How many people without piano degree/without formal piano study who can play like you. You are an exception. In these competitions, you can count with both hands of people who do not have piano degree and can play like you. Chris Shih Ricker Choi You Ken Isaka Who else?????? I can easily can come up with those with piano degree or ex conservatories....
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Ronald: I think you're coming on way too strong about your points, and for sure your classification of the Colorado and Washington competitions in relation to Boston and Chicago is questionable at best. I was basing my opinion on my observation of the people who could advance to semifinal or final in those competitions. So far, I think Van Cliburn is definitely in different class. VC is higher than Boston or Chicago. WIPAC and Colorado are the bottom among these competitions, and if you add Houston, it is even lower. But it is understandable, because Houston is a pure amateur competition, they do not allow degree people to compete at all. At the final level, they are closer, but prior final, VC is definitely way higher.... VC received about 140 applicants, only half got accepted. As a result, the prelim in VC was very strong compared to Chicago or Boston. Several who got rejected from VC competed in Boston. But as we moved to the semifinal, the quality was getting closer.
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Ronald, we can take a look at it the other way. How many ex-professional pianists did not make it to the semis or finals that have a degree from a conservatory (or even a top conservatory)? I bet you can count a handful as well. There are exceptions in all cases.
What I'm trying to say is that regardless of your educational background, it's the amount of hours of practice and preparation that you put in that will get you into the final and ultimately the prize, not your piano degree.
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Ronald, we can take a look at it the other way. How many ex-professional pianists did not make it to the semis or finals that have a degree from a conservatory (or even a top conservatory)? I bet you can count a handful as well. There are exceptions in all cases.
What I'm trying to say is that regardless of your educational background, it's the amount of hours of practice and preparation that you put in that will get you into the final and ultimately the prize, not your piano degree. Ok...name any people who came from big conservatories who did not make to the semifinal. I can only come up with that Raphael guy who threw his hands high in the air when he was playing. You are perfectly correct about the amount of work. That is why people who had spent a lot of work in playing piano since they were small (those who went to conservatories) have the advantage over non degree people who do not have enough training. The levels of degree translate to the numbers of hours that a person spend and the amount of dedication as well as the amount of talents that these people have. That is why we saw ex-big name conservatory graduates can advance to semifinal, because they have better training, more hours of hard working etc. And you are a person who will make these people go crazy..you did not go to music school but you can play well. That is why you cannot use you as a sample. You need to be thrown away from the sample....
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I'm not too terribly interested in arguing these points further, but I would like to point out some clarifications.
I think we're confusing some vague notion of performance ability with having advanced in competitions. I muddled the two earlier in the thread myself. While people who play better are more likely than people who play worse to advance, juries are subjective, and there aren't any comprehensive ways to judge performance ability objectively. Though I don't want to put words in musica71's mouth, I suspect that this idea relates to what she originally said; at least early on, the people advancing are not necessarily better than the people not advancing. (There is also the separate question of whether a competition format is a good way of displaying someone's performance ability, but I don't want to open too many cans of worms...)
I also may not have been clear when mentioning a "weak correlation" between education and performance ability. I was using the statistical notion of correlation. While it is true that there are a lot of piano majors in final rounds, my guess is that there are also a lot of piano majors who wouldn't make it out of the preliminaries. One hopes that big-name education makes a pianist better, but a great pianist does not necessarily have a big-name education, nor does a big-name education always produce a great pianist.
At the end of the day, unless you're worrying about who qualifies as an amateur for purposes of a given competition, how someone got to a particular level of ability doesn't matter very much. I enjoy listening to good music. The backstory is interesting, but ultimately secondary, unless you have a cat who plays like Rachmaninoff. ("Rachmaninoff have big hands!")
(As a side note, I know I'm not a solid pianist. Sometimes expressive and able to hit a decent number of notes, but over-ambitious and not nearly as polished as I'd like.)
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Fair enough Ronald. Anyway just to lighten the mood, here are some pictures: Semi-finalists: Finalists: Me about to fall off of Pike's Peak before the final: Working out at the summit: So tired, yawn:
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Nice job posting the pix! I think you deserved another special award for holding up the cloud! As did your cinematographer.
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