Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
106 registered members (barbaram, Beemer, Beakybird, Bambers, Austin B, augustm, 31 invisible), 1,770 guests, and 6 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#1581695 - 12/21/10 09:30 PM Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today  
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,601
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Loren D  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,601
PA
Why not? After all, I use an impact lever on verticals, so on the grands I did today, I tried his "tap" method. On grands I've always gone the traditional "pull over and then push to set" routine. It was pretty quick with no fussing over the pin. When the string was where I wanted it, if I couldn't knock it out with a few nice test blows, I just moved on to the next pin. Played it hard for about 15 minutes after I was done (I was at a church) and was still rock solid. He may just have something there. smile


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
(ad 800)
PTG 2017 Convention
PTG Convention 2017 St Louis
#1581829 - 12/22/10 12:35 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,854
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Bill Bremmer RPT  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,854
Madison, WI USA
Thanks a lot. Loren, it is what I have done for over 30 years. Yet, I can say what I do and that it works and why it works but there are still those who have their own preconceived opinion that it wouldn't work, couldn't work and shouldn't be tried. An opinion based on hypothesis is formed, conclusions drawn and then offered as fact or methodology.

If you, as a technician believe that the only way to tune a string is to twist, pull, bend, overshoot, pound, massage, etc., until the string finally stays put and spend a couple of hours trying to get an ordinary piano into tune, then you are entitled to your opinion and have the right to tune however you want.

If, on the other hand, you think there may be an easier and more efficient way, you have the right to explore those possibilities too.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
#1581856 - 12/22/10 01:53 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 134
meadpiano Offline
Full Member
meadpiano  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 134
East TN
Hello, Were can I find this tap method outlined? Mr. Bremmer, I look at your website and I didn't seem to find it. Nice website though! Very clean! I have been tuning pianos for about three years now and I have always wished I had better hammer technique! I assume it requires an impact lever?


Thanks,

Daniel


Daniel Bussell MPT
Mead Piano Works
East Tennessee

#1581963 - 12/22/10 07:46 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: meadpiano]  
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,601
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Loren D  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,601
PA
You're welcome, Bill. Question: where did you get the short ball-handle lever? I had a Wonderwand (remember those?) way back in the early 90's that I picked up at the state guild convention, but that had a long handle. Besides, it ended up breaking. So, I need a new one and would like one with a short handle. I can't find one listed at either Schaff or Pianotek.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1581967 - 12/22/10 08:01 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,601
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Loren D  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,601
PA
Thanks, Daniel! A video showing Bill's technique can be seen at http://www.ptg.org/media/tuning.mov.

It's not just him, but other techs too. But if you watch, he will be about the third or forth tech. He introduces himself and then tunes, and you can see the technique. No, does not require an impact lever; you can use your traditional lever (which I do on grands). I do use an impact lever (CyberHammer) on verticals, though.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
#1582008 - 12/22/10 09:07 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,731
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,731
Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
Thanks a lot. Loren, it is what I have done for over 30 years. Yet, I can say what I do and that it works and why it works but there are still those who have their own preconceived opinion that it wouldn't work, couldn't work and shouldn't be tried. An opinion based on hypothesis is formed, conclusions drawn and then offered as fact or methodology.

If you, as a technician believe that the only way to tune a string is to twist, pull, bend, overshoot, pound, massage, etc., until the string finally stays put and spend a couple of hours trying to get an ordinary piano into tune, then you are entitled to your opinion and have the right to tune however you want.

If, on the other hand, you think there may be an easier and more efficient way, you have the right to explore those possibilities too.


Here we go again.

Bill, you are being condescending at best and insulting at worst in proselytizing your favorite techniques. You have done this with choosing a temperament, setting the temperament, stretching octaves, re-gluing ivories, splicing broken strings and now hammer technique.

You act as if you are being attacked for having an opinion when you are the one attacking others because of their opinions.

I find it difficult to take what you say at face value. If you said it was raining, I would look out the window before grabbing an umbrella.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1582110 - 12/22/10 12:35 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,685
Gadzar Online content
2000 Post Club Member
Gadzar  Online Content
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,685
Mexico City
I use the nudging technique too, though recently I have tried the smooth pull technique in grands with good results.

What surprises me is that in this video of Bill tuning unisons, he tunes both from below or above pitch, indifferently.

I always go sharp first and then go down to pitch, except with very loose tuning pins where I go from flat directly to pitch.


Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
#1582148 - 12/22/10 01:34 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,685
Gadzar Online content
2000 Post Club Member
Gadzar  Online Content
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,685
Mexico City
UnrightTooner posted this on another thread, I guess he missed the right thread and it was meant to be here.

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Gadzar:

I also noticed that Bill seemed to come from above or below pitch, but I couldn't be quite sure. Anyway, I couldn’t help but wonder if he was sometimes doing what Cy said (in another Topic) is possible with the impact hammer: rendering the string by springing the pin without actually moving the foot of the pin. If that is done by tapping the hammer, there is not much difference in what is being accomplished as when going slightly above pitch and then setting the pin (and string) without moving the foot of the pin. The question still remains, “How far above pitch?”

Do you understand what I mean?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner


I am not questioning Bill's tuning stability. I know Bill is a great tuner and he does wonderful tunings.

What I am saying is that he does tune in a way unknown for me to this day.

I have a video of Jim Coleman Sr. where he says that if we put the tuning hammer lever in the 1 to 3 hours position (in a vertical piano) there is less amount to go over pitch prior to set the pins. So, if you have the right technique, you can fall exactly on spot and no setting the pin would be needed and you can come from sharp or flat indifferently. Of course this means the foot of the pin is exactly where it must be.

I guess that is what Bill does in his video of tuning treble octaves. It is a shame the right hand is not visible in this video and we can not see what and how is he doing, though we can hear it.




Last edited by Gadzar; 12/22/10 02:10 PM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
#1582158 - 12/22/10 01:54 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,731
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,731
Bradford County, PA
Thanks, Gadzar, I did post a reply in the wrong Topic.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1582254 - 12/22/10 04:38 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Grandpianoman  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,726
Portland, Oregon
Hi Loren,

I was so impressed with Bill's tuning hammer, I bought one....and I really like it. I can feel the pin better. You can see it here:

http://www.mothergoosetools.com/tuning_hammers/index.shtml

Even my local tech liked it....said he was able to set the pin faster.


#1582421 - 12/22/10 08:09 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Grandpianoman]  
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,601
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Loren D  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,601
PA
Originally Posted by Grandpianoman
Hi Loren,

I was so impressed with Bill's tuning hammer, I bought one....and I really like it. I can feel the pin better. You can see it here:

http://www.mothergoosetools.com/tuning_hammers/index.shtml

Even my local tech liked it....said he was able to set the pin faster.



Thanks! I went ahead and bought the Schaff one before I saw this, though. Looking forward to using it.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
#1583578 - 12/24/10 08:11 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 263
Jerry Viviano Offline
Full Member
Jerry Viviano  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 263
Cary, NC
Bill,
With your method, are you striving to leave more tension between the agraffe/capo and the pin than the tension of the speaking length of the string? I've heard this preached several times as a way to ensure tuning stability. If you are doing this, what is the technique? I'm not able to discern it from the video.

It might be good to put together a video specifically on your hammer technique and post it on your site, the PTG site, and/or YouTube.
Thank you,


Jerry Viviano
V. I. Piano
PTG Associate Member
#1718386 - 07/21/11 11:22 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 250
Steve W Offline
Full Member
Steve W  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 250
Omaha, NE
I am resurrecting this thread since I am increasingly interested in the "tapping" technique. I looked for the video showing Bill Bremmer, and 3 other technicians, but it is not there anymore.

Bill, is that video available somewhere? I saw it a while ago and it was very helpful to watch.


Steve W
Omaha, NE
#1718394 - 07/21/11 11:40 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Steve W]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,373
DoelKees Offline
2000 Post Club Member
DoelKees  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,373
Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted by Steve W
I am resurrecting this thread since I am increasingly interested in the "tapping" technique. I looked for the video showing Bill Bremmer, and 3 other technicians, but it is not there anymore.

Bill, is that video available somewhere? I saw it a while ago and it was very helpful to watch.


You mean

http://www.ptg.org/media/tuning.mov

which has been moved to God knows where since PTG is rearranging their website in a random way. Maybe you can email them about it.

Kees

PS If you search the new PTG website for "tuning.mov" you get not what you're after but something else which is also useful I think.

Last edited by DoelKees; 07/21/11 11:43 PM.
#1718540 - 07/22/11 08:31 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 250
Steve W Offline
Full Member
Steve W  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 250
Omaha, NE
Good thought about checking with PTG - I emailed them and will report back when I hear from them.

I hope they will make that video accessible again - it was really helpful, and particularly since you get to see 4 different technicians (incl Bill B) in action so you can compare their technique.


Steve W
Omaha, NE
#1718653 - 07/22/11 12:11 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Jerry Viviano]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,854
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Bill Bremmer RPT  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,854
Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted by Jerry Viviano
Bill,
With your method, are you striving to leave more tension between the agraffe/capo and the pin than the tension of the speaking length of the string? I've heard this preached several times as a way to ensure tuning stability. If you are doing this, what is the technique? I'm not able to discern it from the video.

It might be good to put together a video specifically on your hammer technique and post it on your site, the PTG site, and/or YouTube.
Thank you,


Looks like I never saw or responded to this. I have never heard of such a thing but it would seem to me that if one did that, the tension would eventually equalize and the string would go flat.

What I do know is that raising the pitch of a string with a slow pull will naturally put more tension between the pin and the termination point. That is what often causes a string to break.

To avoid breaking strings when raising the pitch, first put a quick but slight counterclockwise movement on the pin, then gently tap or bump the hammer until the string is up to pitch. Although I often do not have to raise the pitch above where I want it for the string to settle, that is certainly not always true. I seem to know by instinct when I have to raise the pitch of a string beyond where I want it. All one has to do is give a firm test blow. If the string goes flat, it needs to be bumped up again.

The videos that PTG put up on you tube show me tuning a Yamaha vertical which is a very easy piano to tune. It cooperates very well, so little or no effort is needed to "set" a pin. Pianos with tight, squeaky and jumpy pins are another matter. So are pianos where a large change in pitch is required.

In those videos, the piano was de-tuned the way pianos are for the tuning exam. In such a de-tuning, the pins are simply moved alternately sharp and flat but with no effort whatsoever to settle the string or "set" the pin. The piano really wants to go back to where it was more than resist. Those are some reasons why it appears in those videos that I could tune the piano so quickly and easily. I certainly cannot tune all pianos with so little effort.

That being said, however, Bernhard Stopper noted to me how relaxed I seemed during my tuning demonstration at the convention. David Andersen also spoke of how people wit the highest degree of skills are relaxed in their work and do it efficiently and without struggle.

When helping one person prepare for the exam, I noticed how he struggled and fought with each tuning pin, causing it to "snap" sharp, then flat over and over again and never getting the string on pitch. I stepped up to the piano and popped the string into tune with one stroke. He threw up his hands in frustration. I said to him that he could do it too, if he would just relax and stop struggling so hard.

I had him put his hand on the tuning hammer, then I tuned some strings as I would normally. Apparently, he got the idea because after having struggled trying to tune only the temperament octave for an entire hour, he started over and got a very good sounding temperament in only 10 minutes.

He went on to pass his tuning exam with some very impressive scores!

I learned the impact style technique very long ago at the 1979 convention from Jim Coleman, Sr. and George Defebaugh. Many other tuning techniques that I learned at that single class I still use today.

I looked back at what was said in this thread late last year. What George Defebaugh taught and what I accepted as being true and what Jim Coleman, Sr. taught again in his class last week was that an impact type technique is the most mechanically correct way to manipulate a piano string. I saw it demonstrated, I believed it then and I believe it now and have used that kind of technique for over 30 years.

Yet, I was accused of promoting my own methods or something like that and ridiculing the slow pull method. I can only say that I know what works and why it works. I have had the same criticism about the temperament sequence based upon initial contiguous thirds. I know it works and why it works. I have helped dozens of people who struggled and failed quite badly using a traditional cycle of 5ths temperament sequence. They ALL showed great improvement and many went on to pass the tuning exam with exceptionally high scores.

I know why the traditional sequence does not work for many people and have explained why it does not work many times. It may well be true that some technicians successfully tune a piano using a traditional sequence and a slow pull hammer technique. Inevitably, however, these are the people who take far longer to tune a piano than those who use a much more efficient and mechanically correct technique. The temperament sequence is analogous. Compounded and cumulative errors are inevitable with that method and they take much more time and skill to sort out and correct than a sequence that leads one far closer to perfection on the first attempt at tuning each string.

These are not "MY" methods! I did not "invent" the impact style technique nor the contiguous thirds. These methods belong to everyone and are practiced widely. One certainly has the choice and the right to use whichever techniques seem to work best.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
#1718664 - 07/22/11 12:28 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Bill.

There is nothing wrong with promoting "your method" whatever method that might be. It works. People use it. You have helped a LOT of people over the years and still do to this day. You have helped people to not only pass the exam, but, you help people learn how to tune period, spending countless hours for FREE doing so. Those of us who know you, have also become friends with you, have learned to understand you and appreciate your genuineness along with your ability to teach, to learn and to show others how to do what it is, they cannot do or what it is that they are doing incorrectly like snapping the pin back and forth instead of in tune. While many others seem to sit around, complain and find fault, you would rather go out and help those who are struggling and those who have questions whatever they might be. And, most importantly? When you do help, most of them get it. Without your help, many people might not pass the exam. As you mentioned before, 4 of them did, with your tutoring this past convention.

I just wanted to say, thanks for doing that.

Jer



Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#1718670 - 07/22/11 12:34 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,731
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,731
Bradford County, PA
Bill:

You never miss an opportunity to bash 4th and 5th tuning and tuners, do you? The Topic is about hammer technique, not temperament sequences.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1718937 - 07/22/11 07:29 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
And you never miss an opportunity to bash Bill either do you?


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
#1718946 - 07/22/11 07:49 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 250
Steve W Offline
Full Member
Steve W  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 250
Omaha, NE


I got a response from the PTG, and here is the new link:

http://www.ptg.org/media/

Looks like Bill's contiguous thirds videos are there as well as the "4 technicians tune unisons" video I was looking for. Enjoy!


Steve W
Omaha, NE
#1718948 - 07/22/11 07:50 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 250
Steve W Offline
Full Member
Steve W  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 250
Omaha, NE
OOOPS - spoke too soon -
there is indeed a link to the "4 techs" video but it's a dead link.

I will let the PTG know...


Steve W
Omaha, NE
#1718956 - 07/22/11 08:01 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,359
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member
accordeur  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,359
Qubec, Canada
Originally Posted by Jerry Groot RPT
And you never miss an opportunity to bash Bill either do you?


LOL


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
#1719119 - 07/23/11 02:07 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: UnrightTooner]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,854
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Bill Bremmer RPT  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,854
Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Bill:

You never miss an opportunity to bash 4th and 5th tuning and tuners, do you? The Topic is about hammer technique, not temperament sequences.


This was your early response to this topic:

Quote
Here we go again.

Bill, you are being condescending at best and insulting at worst in proselytizing your favorite techniques. You have done this with choosing a temperament, setting the temperament, stretching octaves, re-gluing ivories, splicing broken strings and now hammer technique.

You act as if you are being attacked for having an opinion when you are the one attacking others because of their opinions.

I find it difficult to take what you say at face value. If you said it was raining, I would look out the window before grabbing an umbrella.


I still stick with my advice on how to do all of the above that you mentioned. You are welcome to post your own alternatives to each.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
#1719197 - 07/23/11 10:01 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: UnrightTooner]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 515
wayne walker Offline
500 Post Club Member
wayne walker  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 515
Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Bill:

You never miss an opportunity to bash 4th and 5th tuning and tuners, do you? The Topic is about hammer technique, not temperament sequences.


with comments like yours makes me wonder what you have contribute to the industry. I and many other tuners respect what Bill has done over the years, I guess you don't


Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/
#1719222 - 07/23/11 10:41 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: wayne walker]  
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,601
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Loren D  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,601
PA
Originally Posted by wayne walker
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Bill:

You never miss an opportunity to bash 4th and 5th tuning and tuners, do you? The Topic is about hammer technique, not temperament sequences.


with comments like yours makes me wonder what you have contribute to the industry. I and many other tuners respect what Bill has done over the years, I guess you don't


He does tend to follow Bill around here, it seems. Like you, Wayne, I respect and appreciate Bill's decades of contribution to the trade. I don't agree with everything he says, but the good part is, I don't have to! I can still recognize the value of what he does and contributes.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
#1719245 - 07/23/11 11:30 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Silverwood Pianos  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada

Loren, the problem is not the content of what is posted but how the prose is structured; always tearing down another to build oneself up is the classic straw man argument. The trouble begins when one denigrates another’s way of working or thinking. This is the main complaint regarding this member’s postings and is the part that offends some of the other members here.

Doesn’t make much difference to me any longer because I am not around here much; the technical aspect of this forum has really fallen away in the past couple of years. There are no longer many threads of any technical importance.




Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#1719340 - 07/23/11 02:43 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 704
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mark Davis  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 704
I agree with some of what you have said Bill but not all. I myself have tried out the CM3 method of setting the temperament and do use it with success. However, I do like and use the 4ths and 5ths method and with success too.

I hear and agree with the impact style of tuning and do imploy it on some pianos and it can help with speed but then again I might tune just as fast using the slow pull method too.

With regard to your following statement, "What I do know is that raising the pitch of a string with a slow pull will naturally put more tension between the pin and the termination point. That is what often causes a string to break.".

I understand what you are saying Bill but I do not see or experience what you are saying here. I do not agree that the slow pull method causes string breakage.

I have pitch raised and tuned many pianos with the slow pull method and in all the pianos that I have pitch adjusted and tuned in the last 6 years of my tuning career, apart from 3 years of chipping and pitch raising pianos in a workshop enviroment, I have maybe had 1-2% of the strings snap and even then that maybe due to certain other reasons, not the slow pull method.

I also think that speed and relaxation in tuning come in general from understanding what you are doing and from many years of tuning experience. It is not something one should be boasting about.

The impact style of tuning must be seen as one of the tools in our bag of tools and not the only tool to use in tuning pianos.

Regards,

Last edited by Mark Davis; 07/23/11 04:56 PM. Reason: a one word mistake was corrected.

Mark Davis
Piano Tuner/Technician
www.pianotuning.co.za
#1719428 - 07/23/11 05:12 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: UnrightTooner]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member
pppat  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
Thanks a lot. Loren, it is what I have done for over 30 years. Yet, I can say what I do and that it works and why it works but there are still those who have their own preconceived opinion that it wouldn't work, couldn't work and shouldn't be tried. An opinion based on hypothesis is formed, conclusions drawn and then offered as fact or methodology.

If you, as a technician believe that the only way to tune a string is to twist, pull, bend, overshoot, pound, massage, etc., until the string finally stays put and spend a couple of hours trying to get an ordinary piano into tune, then you are entitled to your opinion and have the right to tune however you want.

If, on the other hand, you think there may be an easier and more efficient way, you have the right to explore those possibilities too.


Here we go again.

Bill, you are being condescending at best and insulting at worst in proselytizing your favorite techniques. You have done this with choosing a temperament, setting the temperament, stretching octaves, re-gluing ivories, splicing broken strings and now hammer technique.

You act as if you are being attacked for having an opinion when you are the one attacking others because of their opinions.

I find it difficult to take what you say at face value. If you said it was raining, I would look out the window before grabbing an umbrella.


Jeff,

I see no intended offense in Bill's writing. Maybe I'm still in the other side of a cultural barrier, but still - Bill advocates what he does, and leaves the door open. Why would that be wrong, in any way?

Last edited by pppat; 07/23/11 05:14 PM.

Patrick Wingren, RPT

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
#1719573 - 07/23/11 09:18 PM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,854
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Bill Bremmer RPT  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,854
Madison, WI USA
I certainly have left open the door because I do know that people can and do use a classic 4ths & 5ths temperament sequence along with a slow pull method successfully. All I am saying is that if those techniques have not worked for you, there are others which far more technicians have found to be successful.

I reiterate: What I learned in 1979 to be the "most mechanically correct" method proved to be true for me. Anyone is invited to demonstrate and/or prove that any other methods are superior.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
#1719681 - 07/24/11 12:11 AM Re: Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 134
meadpiano Offline
Full Member
meadpiano  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 134
East TN
I don't think the point should be to prove one method over the other. I do think though that presenting what works for you can help people to learn what works for them. I can't imagine using a smooth pull method for myself. Plus it somewhat blows my mind how many people use it and as far as I can tell with great success. But I can not say what method works the best because it would seem both work. I could say to someone here, take this bolt off, use this wrench. then I could take out a similar bolt with a ratchet. I may be faster but did the wrench not get the job done? Of course the wrench did fine and if it was used by someone who only uses wrenches his time might have not been bad! My point is I have been very frustrated many times when perfectly good threads get mussed up from all this back and forth. 'My methods better than your's' sometimes is whats going on and it reminds me of a saying that is only slightly different. It becomes very tiresome for people on the outset. I don't have any beef with anybody...can't we all just get along? buhuh buhuh buhuh :-)


Daniel Bussell MPT
Mead Piano Works
East Tennessee

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Anyone using Yamaha N1 for classical music?
by Loga. 05/29/17 09:01 AM
What profession to choose?
by Viacheslav. 05/29/17 07:11 AM
Building Pianos in Africa
by Lirika. 05/29/17 05:49 AM
Yamaha N1 - is it still a good buy?
by Loga. 05/29/17 04:40 AM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Report Problems With New Forums
Report Problems with New Forums Here!
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics179,946
Posts2,630,762
Members87,918
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0