Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Tried Bill Bremmer's hammer technique today

Why not? After all, I use an impact lever on verticals, so on the grands I did today, I tried his "tap" method. On grands I've always gone the traditional "pull over and then push to set" routine. It was pretty quick with no fussing over the pin. When the string was where I wanted it, if I couldn't knock it out with a few nice test blows, I just moved on to the next pin. Played it hard for about 15 minutes after I was done (I was at a church) and was still rock solid. He may just have something there.

Thanks a lot. Loren, it is what I have done for over 30 years. Yet, I can say what I do and that it works and why it works but there are still those who have their own preconceived opinion that it wouldn't work, couldn't work and shouldn't be tried. An opinion based on hypothesis is formed, conclusions drawn and then offered as fact or methodology.

If you, as a technician believe that the only way to tune a string is to twist, pull, bend, overshoot, pound, massage, etc., until the string finally stays put and spend a couple of hours trying to get an ordinary piano into tune, then you are entitled to your opinion and have the right to tune however you want.

If, on the other hand, you think there may be an easier and more efficient way, you have the right to explore those possibilities too.

Hello, Were can I find this tap method outlined? Mr. Bremmer, I look at your website and I didn't seem to find it. Nice website though! Very clean! I have been tuning pianos for about three years now and I have always wished I had better hammer technique! I assume it requires an impact lever?


Thanks,

Daniel

You're welcome, Bill. Question: where did you get the short ball-handle lever? I had a Wonderwand (remember those?) way back in the early 90's that I picked up at the state guild convention, but that had a long handle. Besides, it ended up breaking. So, I need a new one and would like one with a short handle. I can't find one listed at either Schaff or Pianotek.

Thanks, Daniel! A video showing Bill's technique can be seen at http://www.ptg.org/media/tuning.mov.

It's not just him, but other techs too. But if you watch, he will be about the third or forth tech. He introduces himself and then tunes, and you can see the technique. No, does not require an impact lever; you can use your traditional lever (which I do on grands). I do use an impact lever (CyberHammer) on verticals, though.

Here we go again.

Bill, you are being condescending at best and insulting at worst in proselytizing your favorite techniques. You have done this with choosing a temperament, setting the temperament, stretching octaves, re-gluing ivories, splicing broken strings and now hammer technique.

You act as if you are being attacked for having an opinion when you are the one attacking others because of their opinions.

I find it difficult to take what you say at face value. If you said it was raining, I would look out the window before grabbing an umbrella.

I use the nudging technique too, though recently I have tried the smooth pull technique in grands with good results.

What surprises me is that in this video of Bill tuning unisons, he tunes both from below or above pitch, indifferently.

I always go sharp first and then go down to pitch, except with very loose tuning pins where I go from flat directly to pitch.

UnrightTooner posted this on another thread, I guess he missed the right thread and it was meant to be here.



I am not questioning Bill's tuning stability. I know Bill is a great tuner and he does wonderful tunings.

What I am saying is that he does tune in a way unknown for me to this day.

I have a video of Jim Coleman Sr. where he says that if we put the tuning hammer lever in the 1 to 3 hours position (in a vertical piano) there is less amount to go over pitch prior to set the pins. So, if you have the right technique, you can fall exactly on spot and no setting the pin would be needed and you can come from sharp or flat indifferently. Of course this means the foot of the pin is exactly where it must be.

I guess that is what Bill does in his video of tuning treble octaves. It is a shame the right hand is not visible in this video and we can not see what and how is he doing, though we can hear it.

Thanks, Gadzar, I did post a reply in the wrong Topic.

Hi Loren,

I was so impressed with Bill's tuning hammer, I bought one....and I really like it. I can feel the pin better. You can see it here:

http://www.mothergoosetools.com/tuning_hammers/index.shtml

Even my local tech liked it....said he was able to set the pin faster.

Thanks! I went ahead and bought the Schaff one before I saw this, though. Looking forward to using it.

Bill,
With your method, are you striving to leave more tension between the agraffe/capo and the pin than the tension of the speaking length of the string? I've heard this preached several times as a way to ensure tuning stability. If you are doing this, what is the technique? I'm not able to discern it from the video.

It might be good to put together a video specifically on your hammer technique and post it on your site, the PTG site, and/or YouTube.
Thank you,

I am resurrecting this thread since I am increasingly interested in the "tapping" technique. I looked for the video showing Bill Bremmer, and 3 other technicians, but it is not there anymore.

Bill, is that video available somewhere? I saw it a while ago and it was very helpful to watch.

You mean

http://www.ptg.org/media/tuning.mov

which has been moved to God knows where since PTG is rearranging their website in a random way. Maybe you can email them about it.

Kees

PS If you search the new PTG website for "tuning.mov" you get not what you're after but something else which is also useful I think.

Good thought about checking with PTG - I emailed them and will report back when I hear from them.

I hope they will make that video accessible again - it was really helpful, and particularly since you get to see 4 different technicians (incl Bill B) in action so you can compare their technique.

Looks like I never saw or responded to this. I have never heard of such a thing but it would seem to me that if one did that, the tension would eventually equalize and the string would go flat.

What I do know is that raising the pitch of a string with a slow pull will naturally put more tension between the pin and the termination point. That is what often causes a string to break.

To avoid breaking strings when raising the pitch, first put a quick but slight counterclockwise movement on the pin, then gently tap or bump the hammer until the string is up to pitch. Although I often do not have to raise the pitch above where I want it for the string to settle, that is certainly not always true. I seem to know by instinct when I have to raise the pitch of a string beyond where I want it. All one has to do is give a firm test blow. If the string goes flat, it needs to be bumped up again.

The videos that PTG put up on you tube show me tuning a Yamaha vertical which is a very easy piano to tune. It cooperates very well, so little or no effort is needed to "set" a pin. Pianos with tight, squeaky and jumpy pins are another matter. So are pianos where a large change in pitch is required.

In those videos, the piano was de-tuned the way pianos are for the tuning exam. In such a de-tuning, the pins are simply moved alternately sharp and flat but with no effort whatsoever to settle the string or "set" the pin. The piano really wants to go back to where it was more than resist. Those are some reasons why it appears in those videos that I could tune the piano so quickly and easily. I certainly cannot tune all pianos with so little effort.

That being said, however, Bernhard Stopper noted to me how relaxed I seemed during my tuning demonstration at the convention. David Andersen also spoke of how people wit the highest degree of skills are relaxed in their work and do it efficiently and without struggle.

When helping one person prepare for the exam, I noticed how he struggled and fought with each tuning pin, causing it to "snap" sharp, then flat over and over again and never getting the string on pitch. I stepped up to the piano and popped the string into tune with one stroke. He threw up his hands in frustration. I said to him that he could do it too, if he would just relax and stop struggling so hard.

I had him put his hand on the tuning hammer, then I tuned some strings as I would normally. Apparently, he got the idea because after having struggled trying to tune only the temperament octave for an entire hour, he started over and got a very good sounding temperament in only 10 minutes.

He went on to pass his tuning exam with some very impressive scores!

I learned the impact style technique very long ago at the 1979 convention from Jim Coleman, Sr. and George Defebaugh. Many other tuning techniques that I learned at that single class I still use today.

I looked back at what was said in this thread late last year. What George Defebaugh taught and what I accepted as being true and what Jim Coleman, Sr. taught again in his class last week was that an impact type technique is the most mechanically correct way to manipulate a piano string. I saw it demonstrated, I believed it then and I believe it now and have used that kind of technique for over 30 years.

Yet, I was accused of promoting my own methods or something like that and ridiculing the slow pull method. I can only say that I know what works and why it works. I have had the same criticism about the temperament sequence based upon initial contiguous thirds. I know it works and why it works. I have helped dozens of people who struggled and failed quite badly using a traditional cycle of 5ths temperament sequence. They ALL showed great improvement and many went on to pass the tuning exam with exceptionally high scores.

I know why the traditional sequence does not work for many people and have explained why it does not work many times. It may well be true that some technicians successfully tune a piano using a traditional sequence and a slow pull hammer technique. Inevitably, however, these are the people who take far longer to tune a piano than those who use a much more efficient and mechanically correct technique. The temperament sequence is analogous. Compounded and cumulative errors are inevitable with that method and they take much more time and skill to sort out and correct than a sequence that leads one far closer to perfection on the first attempt at tuning each string.

These are not "MY" methods! I did not "invent" the impact style technique nor the contiguous thirds. These methods belong to everyone and are practiced widely. One certainly has the choice and the right to use whichever techniques seem to work best.

Bill.

There is nothing wrong with promoting "your method" whatever method that might be. It works. People use it. You have helped a LOT of people over the years and still do to this day. You have helped people to not only pass the exam, but, you help people learn how to tune period, spending countless hours for FREE doing so. Those of us who know you, have also become friends with you, have learned to understand you and appreciate your genuineness along with your ability to teach, to learn and to show others how to do what it is, they cannot do or what it is that they are doing incorrectly like snapping the pin back and forth instead of in tune. While many others seem to sit around, complain and find fault, you would rather go out and help those who are struggling and those who have questions whatever they might be. And, most importantly? When you do help, most of them get it. Without your help, many people might not pass the exam. As you mentioned before, 4 of them did, with your tutoring this past convention.

I just wanted to say, thanks for doing that.

Jer

Bill:

You never miss an opportunity to bash 4th and 5th tuning and tuners, do you? The Topic is about hammer technique, not temperament sequences.

And you never miss an opportunity to bash Bill either do you?

I got a response from the PTG, and here is the new link:

http://www.ptg.org/media/

Looks like Bill's contiguous thirds videos are there as well as the "4 technicians tune unisons" video I was looking for. Enjoy!