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Thanks JW! I think that's the first thing you've liked that I've posted here.

Just a few comments: the deficiencies I'm referring to are basically when the timing is off for some of the fast runs because what I'm hearing (or thinking that I'm hearing) isn't being exactly translated into the fingers. Or sometimes a finger lands on a note I wasn't expecting and then it throws my brain off for a split second and I have to recalibrate the rest of the run in relation to the 'wrong' note and the rhythm gets shaky. It's something I'm trying to work on more and more. I guess this is to say that I do believe there is such a thing as a wrong note, and that when I play one it affects me.

As for it being free form, I'm also not sure it is best to think of it as being without form. I suppose when one sits down to do this type of improv one needs to have some ideas that are generated on the spot, and then use those (expand/contrast/stretch/modulate/etc) to make an instant tune. Sometimes it's more successful than others, depending on my ability to stick with the ideas (or try to remember them half way through the improv as is more my case).

On a side note, I'm still working on Very Early these days. I think I'm finally beginning to understand it.

Also, Beeboss, I asked a long time ago for some interesting tunes that you were playing, and I've been playing with 'A Flower is a Lovesome Thing' since you suggested it. I'd love to hear your solo piano version of it, or anyone else that would care to learn it. Quite a cool tune.

I know exactly what you mean. It is hard to really believe that the listener can't really hear this stuff but I think it is true. How could they know what you 'think you are hearing'?
So, with that in mind, probably best not to worry about that stuff. Maybe don't think of them as 'wrong' notes but rather as 'unintended' notes. Sometimes for the listener these are the best bits.
Now I think about it I am not sure they can even be 'unintended' notes, I mean some part of your brain or muscles have made those notes happen despite your conscious mind feeling they are 'wrong'. They are only 'wrong' in the sense that they throw off your timing or focus, I am still working on a way to make that not happen.



I kind of forgot about that tune, so many other things to work on ;-)
I haven't got a chart for it so its in the 'to be transcribed' pile. But now you have reminded me I shall try to have a look at it. It is a great tune.
Lets hear your version.

I like to call them surprise notes and they do sound good, they add unexpected spice (tension) to the story. Sceptical, maybe you are being to critical of yourself?

Surprise notes or not, they seem to generate a reflex action in my brain and my fingers will still have to compensate for the unexpected turn of events. So I'm not sure I'm being too critical, but just discerning.

Also, Beeboss, and Jazz+, I think for me it is becoming increasingly important for me to stay true to my ear rather than my technique (or lack thereof) when trying to play, and this is something that I've been coming to terms with over the last few years. Some things are VERY easy for me to play while many others are not, and in the past I stuck to those easy things at the expense of musicality. I also didn't force myself to consider other musical possibilities since it would have made me feel bad about all the things I couldn't do. So, being too caught up in wanting to satisfy my ego, I only did things that I could do, and was ignorantly happy in the process.

It's only been in the last few years that I've had the ability to really look at what I'm doing, and try to critically evaluate it, and then to work on the deficiencies. I think I'm much happier now in this process, rather than the former, simply because I feel that I'm improving and am much more open to further growth. Ignorance may be bliss, but it's not great to listen to.

Yes, true enough. Mistakes are often (wrongly) confused with genius, freshness or innovation. I'm still not convinced Miles Davis, for example intended some of the stuff he's recorded. For example, there's a few stray notes in Blue in Green that I'm certain he's just hit the wrong fingering or partial, and people take that as hip or outside. It seems that the more modern recordings one listens to less and less of these types of notes are tolerated. I'm not sure what I prefer.

Well, as I wrote in the above post, the problem for me stems from the reconciliation of what my ear is seeking as opposed to the hands. I'm sure I could record hours of music with no shaky bits if I was deaf, and was encouraged to play what I thought was good music. I'm also sure that I'd have lots of alternate scale notes, funky chords and 'challenging' voicings. But I don't think you're really talking about that extreme though. It's the confidence to move forward when faced with an unexpected challenge that is what is often necessary, and yes, I still have to hone that skill.

How about this: If you were to write music, and if you had the magical ability to write as fast as you could play would everything you played be what you intended to write? Would this even be possible? I think choices made in an instant should be as wise as those made with more time, especially if the intention is to produce decent music. I guess this is why improvising attracts me so much because of the search for the 'right' notes at an accelerated pace.

Yes I know what you mean, but the time to evaluate whether a note was a good one or not is not whilst playing. Otherwise you are focusing all your attention on the slightly weird note you just played and what is coming next is not getting the preparation required. Thats when the time or focus slips. I know only too well though that it is not easy to not think about it.



We all do. I am always amazed when I listen to Jarrett because although he may make the odd slip or something comes out that obviously wasn't really intended it doesn't impede the flow one little bit.
When I make a mistake I can be pretty sure that another one is coming right up.




That is definitely the way to move forward.




It's a different thing in a way. When composing out of time there is plenty of scope to make the note choice what you really really want but the flip side is that it is very hard to imagine how it will sound when played in real time to an ear that has never heard it before. So often when I compose stuff and then listen to it back it is so obvious where should be a change and isn't (or vice versa) but I can't get that by thinking about the bits in isolation. When improvising the ear compels you to do something when it is getting dull or to slow down if its going too fast.

I was having a go at 'flower is a lovesome thing' - thanks for reminding of it's existence. I love it, a wonderful tune. I recorded a quick version, more of a play through than a performance, but you can hear the ideas I am thinking of despite the hesitancy.

http://www.divshare.com/download/15316221-bd0

Scep, I like everything you post! Not true comment at all. But in the past we were supposed to critique and maybe for you that overpowered everything else. So please correct that notion. I just had fun debating with you particularly on subs. Frankly I miss those debates because that's when I really learn.

As you know, I don't particularly care if people think I play something badly. I already know it anyway and if I keep posting then the next one is naturally better. I'm more excited about learning and that comes to me via critique.

BTW - I do think that in this free format, you sound really in control of the rhythm. Maybe that's interesting in itself. Perhaps thinking about the form causes the rhythmic flow to be impeded. Particularly for you when you are doing a lot of 16ths. You really sounded good though and swinging.

I myself am not at the point of thinking 16ths ala Keith Jarrett. I'm finding a lot of musicality by going the opposite and slowing down. I notice that a lot of players start off with eighths and quarters and only pound on the sixteenths when they peak out.

When I'm playing sixteenths, it tends to be influenced a lot by muscle memory and pre-practiced runs. So I am avoiding that by making 16ths very short. That way, a pattern cannot develop.

I'm not at the point that I can play with such confidence on the free stuff as what you did so I find it particularly impressive.

BTW - I'm losing internet connection soon (I'm on vacation) so I'll check back in on Monday.

I guess the problem for me is that I'm reacting to the note rather than evaluating, kind of like when one tastes something sour--it's not an evaluative process as much as a puckering. If I was trying to smile at the time I'm still not sure I could keep smiling during the sourness episode.

Of course there are degrees of 'wrong' notes, and it appears that if something is only slightly off the reaction may be one of surprise rather than distain, and may lead to other more interesting things.



So I guess this is what people mean that say there are no wrong notes. At the level of mastery perhaps a vision of the whole work, or perhaps even a night of playing, is looked at in its entirety, and the one misplaced note takes on some sort of greater significance as you talked about earlier. I just know that I'm not there yet, and have a long way to go before I can look at the broad picture again. But like I said, I'm enjoying the journey, so the destination isn't really as important to me right now.




That's interesting. I was actually referring to composing with a piano, or some other tool, rather than just by ear. I've yet to do that with more than just melodies and simple harmonies.


And what a great play through. I like the groove thing that you go into on many of your pieces, but am always disappointed when you also fade out right when it gets going. The block chords you use (or whatever you call them) are really very cool too. I've been trying to copy you in this regard from some of the last things you've posted. It's a great sound, but sometimes pretty hard to execute, especially when the chords are so dense.

Also, I've yet to hear the tune anywhere except for your performance, so I was quite surprised by some of your chords and definitely surprised by the tempo. Is it this slow?
This is one of the few tunes that I've learned recently from the Real Book, and so I have no idea as to the authenticity or the tempo. The Youtube examples didn't really inspire me to listen to more than a few minutes, and I couldn't find anything that might've been more 'accurate.' So, given my lack of exposure to others' versions my own is actually quite fast compared to yours. I've also taken liberties with the B7lydian chord for the first four bars. I'll try to post something tonight or tomorrow if I have the chance.

Thanks. The groovy solo wasn't really happening so I cut it out. I need to play on those chords for a while before it will be relaxed.



Normally it is the speed of a regular ballad but I tried it more spacey and out of time. I had more time to find the chords that way ;-)
Next time it may be faster.



I hadn't really checked out any other versions of it either but there are plenty up on youtube. I just had a quick listen and it seems that the chords in real book 2 are not quite the ones that are usually used. I need to try a few of the possibilities and think a little about which I like best, should have done that before recording it really. I like to find the oldest version I can to try to know what the 'authentic' chords are and then listen to a few more recent versions to see what it common practice for modern players and then take the bits I like.



Too right, you have to take liberties.

I meant with the piano, just regular composing with a pencil. The ear I meant is the ear of the listener.
Let me put it like this - when I deliberate over each note for 10 minutes before committing it to paper what gets lost is the connectedness to a real time experience, because composing is not a real time experience in the way that improvisation always is. It is really important to somehow imagine the composition as a real time experience because ultimately when performed that is what it will be, but it is hard to do for me.

Something is gained when composing - the chance to really ponder each note - but something is also lost - the flow.

Got it. However, I've got to say that I'm always impressed with those people that can write without an instrument. I remember seeing Amadeus years and years ago and thinking that if it was a true portrayal of the composing scene (from his bed transcribed to Salieri) that I really wasn't capable then (or now for that matter) of ever hearing music like this.

Yes, I see what you mean.

I dig it!
Nice playing.

Well, it's mostly practice . . ., one has to work on one's inner ear and get what's inside to the pen and paper. It takes time. One mustn't forget that that's what 'they' did in those days - all the time.
There's a really good book about how to learn this particular skill: "Hearing and Writing Music" by Ron Gorow.

Thanks!


Ya, I guess the key is that if it takes practice, and it is something low on my priority list, that I'll probably never master that skill since the alternative is much easier.

That is, unless you, or someone else can point out some benefits to being able to write sans instrument besides the ability to write something anywhere (ie plane, park). Do you think this ability crosses over into your other playing abilities (I assume you write this way)?

No. But being able to read music does. Being an improvising musician I believe that developing ones inner ear visavi the ability to play what one hears is really important.

I think that Jazz would be different if pre-written. There's something about the unexpectedness of what will happen that impacts even the performer.

I again recall the concert with Wayne Shorter and Herbie I saw some months ago. It clearly was all unplanned and based more on interaction among the players. I think it was delightful that even Herbie and Wayne didn't really know where it was going to go either.

One thing my teacher always tells me to do is to end phrases unexpectedly. The change in pattern seems to affect what I play after. Suddenly all the practiced shapes fall apart and force me to rethink. I just wish I can concentrate on the moment more and more of this will happen naturally.

Definitely. We all have the ability to imagine intervals and melodies and chords in our heads, and so composing away from the piano only involves writing down these imaginary sounds. I am sure we can all do it to some degree if we try. It is probably a really good thing work on as it is impossible to do too much of anything that improve the ear.
It is the ear that really determines the quality of the music we make. It determines even how we perceive music and so shapes all our understanding of music.

I think the idea of ending phrases unexpectedly is probably an intermediary step, wouldn't you say? I suppose if one is aiming to sound be-bopish this might help in that goal. I also think that making phrases sound complete, or groups of phrases sound complete together, is probably a much more musical approach. Maybe that will come later when you/one absorbs the unexpected phrase idea and then can incorporate these ideas into broader musical statements.

Well the point of it was to break patterns. There are plenty of top level players who thrived on patterns -- e.g. Oscar...

So when you play a pattern, doesn't the finger (muscle memory) dominate instead of the ear? At least when I do this, it's not necessary for every phrase. It's when I hit a rut.

It's like passing the buck back to the ear...