2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Who's Online Now
80 members (36251, AZNpiano, achoo42, AaronSF, anotherscott, Beowulf, 23 invisible), 574 guests, and 294 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Question on counting beats
#1715274 07/17/11 08:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 70
R
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 70
I'm working on Reblitz's exercise #4 - Judging the speed of beats.

Now I set the metronome to 105 for 7 bps. The metronome is going
ONE-two-three-four at 105. Am I counting to 7 against the One-two-three-four? Say one/two--three/four--five/six--seven?
That way scans over 2 seconds.

I could sure use some help.
Thanks,
Rock

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Question on counting beats
Rockin'88 #1715297 07/17/11 09:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 70
R
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 70
If the metronome is set at 105 and I play the F-A or F#-A# intervals which beat at 7 how do I time the 7 beats to 105?

Thanks again,
Rock

Re: Question on counting beats
Rockin'88 #1715298 07/17/11 09:17 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,018
B
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,018
FORGET about counting beats! That will lead you astray. The only right way is to COMPARE them instead!


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Question on counting beats
Rockin'88 #1715304 07/17/11 09:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,653
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,653
I wondered if Bill would chime in on this one. He has an excellent video presentation of using contiguous 3rds to get the beats working right without counting them. http://www.billbremmer.com/videos/contiguous_thirds/
It works quite well. I use it in combination with a Both Ways From The Middle Temperament sequence and it's slick!


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
Re: Question on counting beats
Rockin'88 #1715305 07/17/11 09:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 28,576
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 28,576
Although Bill is correct, there is some value to getting an idea of how fast certain beats are. 7 beats per second would be 7 beats per metronome clicks when the metronome is set to 60.


Semipro Tech
Re: Question on counting beats
Bill Bremmer RPT #1715320 07/17/11 09:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 70
R
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 70
Bill,
When you say forget counting, I feel lost. Isn't tuning about counting beats to set a baseline or reference point?
I watched your video but at the point I am right now it's a little over my head. I'll have to come back to it in a few days.
But for someone really at square one shouldn't I at this point count beats?

Thank you,
Robert

Re: Question on counting beats
Rockin'88 #1715330 07/17/11 10:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,913
D
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,913
The 105 setting on the metronome gives 4 beats per metronome click, if I'm understanding the question correctly.

7 beats per second, times 60 seconds per minute, equals 420 beats per minute; 420 divided by 4 equals 105; so 7 beats per second equals 4 beats per click.

No idea about whether this is the best way to do anything; just trying to clarify what the number 105 is supposed to be about.


(I'm a piano teacher.)
Re: Question on counting beats
Bill Bremmer RPT #1715361 07/17/11 11:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
FORGET about counting beats! That will lead you astray. The only right way is to COMPARE them instead!


Baloney! There is nothing wrong about learning to count beats. Thats the way thousands of tuners have learned, including myself. Not only is it recommended in several top books on tuning but it is still done in many schools and colleges.

Sometimes its easier for some people to use CM3rds but many people have a huge problem discerning the difference between "souring" and actual beats as you get over 10-12 b/s.

If you want to count 7 beats/sec, set the metronome to 60. Every time it tics, quickly say "from chicago to new york". 7 beats per second follows the syllables. Once you do it for a while, tap out the syllables with your hand while you say it. Eventually it will imprint quite accurately in your brain and you will be on your way to tune F3-A3 and get it very close to where it should be (if not right on).

Some people are not good at counting beats, give up, and choose to set temperaments by an alternative method. That, in itself, is not valid reason to thumb their nose at what they stumbled on.


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
Re: Question on counting beats
Rockin'88 #1715429 07/18/11 01:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 447
E
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
E
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 447
I did a similar metronome trick to help me get in the ballpark. Set the metronome to 105 and say "ONE ee and uh TWO ee and uh THREE ee and uh FOUR ee and uh", etc. The numbers that you say line up with each tick of the metronome at 105. And each syllable that you are saying corresponds to one of the F-A beats (7 beats a second)as you play it and let it ring. Pretty soon you won't need a metronome any more and you will still be in the right neighborhood when you say the "ONE ee and uh" stuff.

Although Bill is right; This can lead you astray if you overdo it and disregard the size of piano that you are working on.

I've always wondered this (maybe Bill or others could chime in) - what is the discrepancy between the speed of F-A on a Fazioli 10-foot concert grand versus the speed of F-A on an Acrosonic spinet? Is 7 beats totally out the window in these extreme cases? I've never tuned the former, so I am just curious. Most texts instruct you to put F-A around 7 beats to get your temperament going. Other than the purpose of teaching beginners, is this really sound advice practically speaking?

-Erich

Last edited by erichlof; 07/18/11 01:25 AM.
Re: Question on counting beats
Rockin'88 #1715491 07/18/11 06:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,653
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,653
I remember the struggle of trying to count beats, and realizing that in reality my 7BPS one day might be faster or slower than the day before. It's possible that we learn things, then progress to the point that they aren't perceived anymore.

Rather than take a hard argumentative position, I'd be inclined to suggest that you work out what 7BPS sounds like, then learn to arrive there by at least one other method as you gain experience.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
Re: Question on counting beats
erichlof #1715505 07/18/11 07:05 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,119
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,119
Originally Posted by erichlof
.....

I've always wondered this (maybe Bill or others could chime in) - what is the discrepancy between the speed of F-A on a Fazioli 10-foot concert grand versus the speed of F-A on an Acrosonic spinet? Is 7 beats totally out the window in these extreme cases? I've never tuned the former, so I am just curious. Most texts instruct you to put F-A around 7 beats to get your temperament going. Other than the purpose of teaching beginners, is this really sound advice practically speaking?

-Erich


The beatrate of F3-A3 will be different enough between a decent sized piano and a spinet to throw you off. BUT SO WILL THE NOMINAL 4:5 RATIO OF CM3s!

It is a valuable tool to learn the approximate beatrates, but F3-A3 in particular can vary a great deal. Higher intervals not so much due to being farther from bad breaks in scaling. Some tuners can recognise absolute beat speeds better than others. Everyone has to find out what works for themselves by trying different things.

One thing for sure that every tuner must learn is stability. If the notes don't stay were they are put, it is like having rolling logs on a moving truck when trying to set the temperament. I will stick my neck out and say that there is no use learning to tune the temperament until solid unisons can be tuned.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Question on counting beats
Rockin'88 #1715510 07/18/11 07:19 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,018
B
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,018
Originally Posted by Rockin'88
Bill,
When you say forget counting, I feel lost. Isn't tuning about counting beats to set a baseline or reference point?
I watched your video but at the point I am right now it's a little over my head. I'll have to come back to it in a few days.
But for someone really at square one shouldn't I at this point count beats?

Thank you,
Robert


I will post more on this subject as soon as I can. I just got back from the convention and have a full schedule today. I fully realize that my answer, as worded, would only produce more questions and not a solution. However, please do take a look at this video because it may help you see how the piano itself will tell you how to "find" that approximately 7 beats per second on any piano as it relates to the piano's own and unique inharmonicity: http://www.billbremmer.com/videos/contiguous_thirds/

Also, Jack Stebbins RPT (the North Bennett Street School chief instructor) has a similar but perhaps better approach for those who have difficulty hearing the C#4-F4 and F4-A4 M3's. I have his handout and will scan and post it.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Question on counting beats
Rockin'88 #1715533 07/18/11 08:16 AM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 36
K
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
K
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 36
If you have an iphone, you can get the Tempo Advance app for $2 and create a whole set of different beats per second. Then you can listen to any bps that you want and switch between them easily to hear the difference.

Re: Question on counting beats
Rockin'88 #1715589 07/18/11 09:54 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
NCH Tone Generator is a great free program to dial in whatever beats you want and actually hear them at the proper tone. You can get it here.

http://www.world-voices.com/software/nchtone.html

To create a second (or more) tone just right clik the "Sine 1 frequency" and select off the menu. Once you creat an interval like a M3 you can cycle up and down by semi tones or other intervals to hear the relationship changes. Its a pretty simple intuitive program that works well.


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
Re: Question on counting beats
Rockin'88 #1715704 07/18/11 01:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,114
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,114
Originally Posted by Rockin'88
If the metronome is set at 105 and I play the F-A or F#-A# intervals which beat at 7 how do I time the 7 beats to 105?

Thanks again,
Rock


I really hate to jump in here, but can you clarify what your tuning goals are?

It's just that there are a lot of easier ways to end up with a beautifully tuned piano than the path you chose...

Ron Koval

Re: Question on counting beats
RonTuner #1715734 07/18/11 02:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 70
R
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 70
To everyone...thanks for responding!


Today I've been smoothing out my unisons which are coming along fine. I've spent pretty much the past week or so just on that. The center octaves that is. This afternoon I'll hit the high treble and two-string basses.

Yesterday I wanted to move a little onto Reblitz' other exercises. Specifically, the counting exercises. I began with setting the metronome at 105. I used this one ---

http://www.webmetronome.com/#

since my old Franz and little Yamaha doesn't have 105. It's either 104 (Yamaha)or 106 (Franz). Anyway...

Now, at 105: Click-2-3-4, my problem was...how do I "overlay" the 7BPS into the rhythm of 105? I tried to listen to an F-A and F#-A# 3rd (muting off the outside strings)as it counted (the metronome)to try and catch/time the 7 bps of the interval. I had a heck of a time. I thought well, maybe I'm just getting ahead of myself and should first get the 7bps in my head with the 105 rhythm.

The thing is, how do I count the 7bps? At 105 it's much faster than 60. Sure, at 60 you have time to get a quick 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 per beat. At 105 it's almost 2 beats per second so that's where I got frustrated.

How do you time a count of 7 to a 105bps counting metronome?

Re: Question on counting beats
Rockin'88 #1715737 07/18/11 02:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,119
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,119
If you have musical training, imagine playing sixteenth notes at 105 beats per minute. What might be confusing you is trying to stop at seven. F3-A3 does not stop at seven, and neither should you! smile


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Question on counting beats
UnrightTooner #1715743 07/18/11 02:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 70
R
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 70
Jeff,

Do you mean do a quick 4-count for every metronome tick?

Re: Question on counting beats
Rockin'88 #1715772 07/18/11 03:32 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 90
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 90
Yes when the metronome is at 105 ticks per minute, you have to count four beats per tick if you want a beatrate of 7 bps.

That is because there are 105 ticks in a minute, and if you count four beats per tick, you have 420 beats in a minute. And if you have a beat of 7 bps, it makes 7 beats in every second, making 7*60=420 beats per minute. So that if you count 7 beats per second, or 4 ticks per ticks that go at a rate of 105/minute, in both cases you have a rate of 420 per minute, meaning that the speed is the same in both cases.

Re: Question on counting beats
Rockin'88 #1715792 07/18/11 04:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,913
D
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,913
Originally Posted by Rockin'88
The thing is, how do I count the 7bps? At 105 it's much faster than 60. Sure, at 60 you have time to get a quick 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 per beat. At 105 it's almost 2 beats per second so that's where I got frustrated.

How do you time a count of 7 to a 105bps counting metronome?
In this case, you don't want to do that. You have a choice: Time a count of 7 to the metronome running at 60, or time a count of 4 to the metronome running at 105. Both methods done right will give the same answer in the end. The only reason to use 105 for this example is that it was calculated to allow you to count to the small, even number 4 instead of the odd, larger number 7.


(I'm a piano teacher.)
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Where Did The Buttons Go?!
----------------------
Our April 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
The Piano World During the Pandemic!
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Eleanor Sokoloff RIP
by pianoloverus - 07/13/20 04:15 PM
Winter NAMM 2021 - Proceed or Cancel?
by PianoManChuck - 07/13/20 03:55 PM
Roland A-88mk2 - clunky black keys?
by Karnevil - 07/13/20 01:53 PM
PianoLink International Amateur Competition
by SiFi - 07/13/20 01:17 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics200,235
Posts2,980,269
Members97,760
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4