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I'm working on Reblitz's exercise #4 - Judging the speed of beats.

Now I set the metronome to 105 for 7 bps. The metronome is going
ONE-two-three-four at 105. Am I counting to 7 against the One-two-three-four? Say one/two--three/four--five/six--seven?
That way scans over 2 seconds.

I could sure use some help.
Thanks,
Rock

If the metronome is set at 105 and I play the F-A or F#-A# intervals which beat at 7 how do I time the 7 beats to 105?

Thanks again,
Rock

FORGET about counting beats! That will lead you astray. The only right way is to COMPARE them instead!

I wondered if Bill would chime in on this one. He has an excellent video presentation of using contiguous 3rds to get the beats working right without counting them. http://www.billbremmer.com/videos/contiguous_thirds/
It works quite well. I use it in combination with a Both Ways From The Middle Temperament sequence and it's slick!

Although Bill is correct, there is some value to getting an idea of how fast certain beats are. 7 beats per second would be 7 beats per metronome clicks when the metronome is set to 60.

Bill,
When you say forget counting, I feel lost. Isn't tuning about counting beats to set a baseline or reference point?
I watched your video but at the point I am right now it's a little over my head. I'll have to come back to it in a few days.
But for someone really at square one shouldn't I at this point count beats?

Thank you,
Robert

The 105 setting on the metronome gives 4 beats per metronome click, if I'm understanding the question correctly.

7 beats per second, times 60 seconds per minute, equals 420 beats per minute; 420 divided by 4 equals 105; so 7 beats per second equals 4 beats per click.

No idea about whether this is the best way to do anything; just trying to clarify what the number 105 is supposed to be about.

Baloney! There is nothing wrong about learning to count beats. Thats the way thousands of tuners have learned, including myself. Not only is it recommended in several top books on tuning but it is still done in many schools and colleges.

Sometimes its easier for some people to use CM3rds but many people have a huge problem discerning the difference between "souring" and actual beats as you get over 10-12 b/s.

If you want to count 7 beats/sec, set the metronome to 60. Every time it tics, quickly say "from chicago to new york". 7 beats per second follows the syllables. Once you do it for a while, tap out the syllables with your hand while you say it. Eventually it will imprint quite accurately in your brain and you will be on your way to tune F3-A3 and get it very close to where it should be (if not right on).

Some people are not good at counting beats, give up, and choose to set temperaments by an alternative method. That, in itself, is not valid reason to thumb their nose at what they stumbled on.

I did a similar metronome trick to help me get in the ballpark. Set the metronome to 105 and say "ONE ee and uh TWO ee and uh THREE ee and uh FOUR ee and uh", etc. The numbers that you say line up with each tick of the metronome at 105. And each syllable that you are saying corresponds to one of the F-A beats (7 beats a second)as you play it and let it ring. Pretty soon you won't need a metronome any more and you will still be in the right neighborhood when you say the "ONE ee and uh" stuff.

Although Bill is right; This can lead you astray if you overdo it and disregard the size of piano that you are working on.

I've always wondered this (maybe Bill or others could chime in) - what is the discrepancy between the speed of F-A on a Fazioli 10-foot concert grand versus the speed of F-A on an Acrosonic spinet? Is 7 beats totally out the window in these extreme cases? I've never tuned the former, so I am just curious. Most texts instruct you to put F-A around 7 beats to get your temperament going. Other than the purpose of teaching beginners, is this really sound advice practically speaking?

-Erich

I remember the struggle of trying to count beats, and realizing that in reality my 7BPS one day might be faster or slower than the day before. It's possible that we learn things, then progress to the point that they aren't perceived anymore.

Rather than take a hard argumentative position, I'd be inclined to suggest that you work out what 7BPS sounds like, then learn to arrive there by at least one other method as you gain experience.

The beatrate of F3-A3 will be different enough between a decent sized piano and a spinet to throw you off. BUT SO WILL THE NOMINAL 4:5 RATIO OF CM3s!

It is a valuable tool to learn the approximate beatrates, but F3-A3 in particular can vary a great deal. Higher intervals not so much due to being farther from bad breaks in scaling. Some tuners can recognise absolute beat speeds better than others. Everyone has to find out what works for themselves by trying different things.

One thing for sure that every tuner must learn is stability. If the notes don't stay were they are put, it is like having rolling logs on a moving truck when trying to set the temperament. I will stick my neck out and say that there is no use learning to tune the temperament until solid unisons can be tuned.

I will post more on this subject as soon as I can. I just got back from the convention and have a full schedule today. I fully realize that my answer, as worded, would only produce more questions and not a solution. However, please do take a look at this video because it may help you see how the piano itself will tell you how to "find" that approximately 7 beats per second on any piano as it relates to the piano's own and unique inharmonicity: http://www.billbremmer.com/videos/contiguous_thirds/

Also, Jack Stebbins RPT (the North Bennett Street School chief instructor) has a similar but perhaps better approach for those who have difficulty hearing the C#4-F4 and F4-A4 M3's. I have his handout and will scan and post it.

If you have an iphone, you can get the Tempo Advance app for $2 and create a whole set of different beats per second. Then you can listen to any bps that you want and switch between them easily to hear the difference.

NCH Tone Generator is a great free program to dial in whatever beats you want and actually hear them at the proper tone. You can get it here.

http://www.world-voices.com/software/nchtone.html

To create a second (or more) tone just right clik the "Sine 1 frequency" and select off the menu. Once you creat an interval like a M3 you can cycle up and down by semi tones or other intervals to hear the relationship changes. Its a pretty simple intuitive program that works well.

I really hate to jump in here, but can you clarify what your tuning goals are?

It's just that there are a lot of easier ways to end up with a beautifully tuned piano than the path you chose...

Ron Koval

To everyone...thanks for responding!


Today I've been smoothing out my unisons which are coming along fine. I've spent pretty much the past week or so just on that. The center octaves that is. This afternoon I'll hit the high treble and two-string basses.

Yesterday I wanted to move a little onto Reblitz' other exercises. Specifically, the counting exercises. I began with setting the metronome at 105. I used this one ---

http://www.webmetronome.com/#

since my old Franz and little Yamaha doesn't have 105. It's either 104 (Yamaha)or 106 (Franz). Anyway...

Now, at 105: Click-2-3-4, my problem was...how do I "overlay" the 7BPS into the rhythm of 105? I tried to listen to an F-A and F#-A# 3rd (muting off the outside strings)as it counted (the metronome)to try and catch/time the 7 bps of the interval. I had a heck of a time. I thought well, maybe I'm just getting ahead of myself and should first get the 7bps in my head with the 105 rhythm.

The thing is, how do I count the 7bps? At 105 it's much faster than 60. Sure, at 60 you have time to get a quick 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 per beat. At 105 it's almost 2 beats per second so that's where I got frustrated.

How do you time a count of 7 to a 105bps counting metronome?

If you have musical training, imagine playing sixteenth notes at 105 beats per minute. What might be confusing you is trying to stop at seven. F3-A3 does not stop at seven, and neither should you!

Jeff,

Do you mean do a quick 4-count for every metronome tick?

Yes when the metronome is at 105 ticks per minute, you have to count four beats per tick if you want a beatrate of 7 bps.

That is because there are 105 ticks in a minute, and if you count four beats per tick, you have 420 beats in a minute. And if you have a beat of 7 bps, it makes 7 beats in every second, making 7*60=420 beats per minute. So that if you count 7 beats per second, or 4 ticks per ticks that go at a rate of 105/minute, in both cases you have a rate of 420 per minute, meaning that the speed is the same in both cases.

In this case, you don't want to do that. You have a choice: Time a count of 7 to the metronome running at 60, or time a count of 4 to the metronome running at 105. Both methods done right will give the same answer in the end. The only reason to use 105 for this example is that it was calculated to allow you to count to the small, even number 4 instead of the odd, larger number 7.