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Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: jasperkeys] #1709338
07/07/11 08:23 PM
07/07/11 08:23 PM
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Posts: 256
Toronto, Canada
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MathTeacher Offline OP
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Originally Posted by jasperkeys
Well, count me in! To be upfront about this; I currently only have about three or four pieces I could contribute if you don't mind. This kind of site would certainly be interesting. Thanks.


Cool! You put one up, and I'll put my second one in. Unfortunately we cannot attach music files or even pdfs in this cheap forum (seeing that "free" is the main theme now), so what I did was use a (free) third party service www.sendspace.com as a place to upload and put the link in the forum. Perhaps our creator Stephen can think of a better way.

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Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher] #1709349
07/07/11 08:36 PM
07/07/11 08:36 PM
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Seattle-ish, WA
Stephen Hazel Offline
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mmmm, I bugged the freeforums.org people about being able to attach
teeny midi files, but no word back yet...

So there's that http://sendspace.com or http://box.net/ ...


http://PianoCheetah.app - my weird piano practice program
Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher] #1709434
07/08/11 12:09 AM
07/08/11 12:09 AM
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Posts: 414
Safford, AZ
jasperkeys Offline
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Quote
Cool! You put one up, and I'll put my second one in.


Thank you so much for the kind welcome. Please forgive me but I won't be able to do this until next week when I can get back to my computer with the files. I hope my examples won't be considered too rudimentary but I'm really interested in reviewing the work of some really gifted ears that have been applied to perhaps familiar music.

Along this line: I was just thinking that it would really be nice for users to provide an mp3 file of the music that was transcribed or at least to hear where the music was originally derived from. I like reading along with the sheet music as I'm hearing the audio file even if the music would be too difficult for me to ever play.


"I wish there was a way to know you're in the good old days before you've actually left them." Andy Bernard
Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher] #1709474
07/08/11 03:07 AM
07/08/11 03:07 AM
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London, UK
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kevinb Offline
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Originally Posted by MathTeacher
I don't see what the problem is. If you wrote a song, why would you complain if a group of pianists are liking your song and embellishing it with their own skills without profit, for sheer self-enjoyment? It means that you have succeeded in making people enjoy your music.


It also means that I, as the composer, am potentially denied the opportunity to market a transcription myself, or have someone do it on my behalf, as part of my business.

At least, that's how the law views it.

The ethics of the situation are complicated, and can be argued either way. I'm not going to make moral pronouncements -- if there is such a thing as a moral high ground, I doubt it's anywhere near where I'm sitting.

When I said 'If you can't be good, be careful', perhaps what I should have said is 'Be aware that you're openly discussing an unlawful joint enterprise on a public forum'.


Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: kevinb] #1709576
07/08/11 09:55 AM
07/08/11 09:55 AM
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Toronto, Canada
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MathTeacher Offline OP
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Originally Posted by kevinb
It also means that I, as the composer, am potentially denied the opportunity to market a transcription myself, or have someone do it on my behalf, as part of my business.



What ever miniscule loss in revenue to the composer due to people trading transcriptions, if any at all, is nothing compared to the huge loss of profit the composer already experiences from the mass of people exchanging mp3s and the existence of videos of the songs on youtube. And remember, there are already free music sheets of the songs out there like sheetmusictrade, sheetzbox, etc... There people are gettting the music sheets (though rudimentary level) by the handful.

Anyway, as we are on a new page now, here is the link to the forum again, for people wanting to trade advanced transcriptions of radio hits:

http://poptranscription.freeforums.org/

Thanks to StephenHazel for creating it. My second song will be uploaded soon.

Last edited by MathTeacher; 07/08/11 10:08 AM.
Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher] #1709634
07/08/11 11:49 AM
07/08/11 11:49 AM
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NY
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Lefty Chev Offline
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Originally Posted by MathTeacher
I don't see what the problem is. If you wrote a song, why would you complain if a group of pianists are liking your song and embellishing it with their own skills without profit, for sheer self-enjoyment? It means that you have succeeded in making people enjoy your music.


Because you don't own the right to distribute the score. It's not yours to give away. All the rationalization about what you or someone else would do really doesn't matter. Do you have a legal right to give someone else the sheet music to a song that someone else owns the rights too?

Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: Lefty Chev] #1709727
07/08/11 02:08 PM
07/08/11 02:08 PM
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Toronto, Canada
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MathTeacher Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Lefty Chev
Because you don't own the right to distribute the score. It's not yours to give away. All the rationalization about what you or someone else would do really doesn't matter. Do you have a legal right to give someone else the sheet music to a song that someone else owns the rights too?


If advanced arrangements of songs don't exist, and transcribers cannot sell them or even give them away for free, then how can people get advanced transcriptions of the songs they like? I will be 80 years old before I can transcribe every song I like. And a lot of people cannot transcribe or can't make the time to.

Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher] #1709758
07/08/11 02:42 PM
07/08/11 02:42 PM
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sportsdude2060 Offline
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If the transcribers feel the need to operate legally, they simply obtain licenses before distribution.

At this point, you're only arguing the ethics of an already established regulation. Whether or not you agree with the law in no way changes the fact that ignoring it is illegal.

You'd be just as fine selling your transcriptions as you had originally intended.

Last edited by sportsdude2060; 07/08/11 02:43 PM.
Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher] #1710139
07/09/11 11:12 AM
07/09/11 11:12 AM
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curlyfries Offline
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This topic makes me wonder which I always have about Wedding Singers or Garage Bands that do covers. How about the band or singer at the local Holiday Inn or the local fair or restaurant or nursing home or the busqer(sp?) who earns income from the latest pop and rock and etc songs or playing any music copyrighted over the last 50 or so years?



Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher] #1710148
07/09/11 11:34 AM
07/09/11 11:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
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rocket88 Offline
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In the USA, if a venue such as a restaurant or bar is hosting music, the venue has to buy a yearly license from an outfit like ASCAP, which allows the bands/performers to play any music that might be copyrighted.

Buskers and nursing homes and Wedding performers are not on the radar screen as far as I know.


Piano teacher.
Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher] #1710165
07/09/11 12:06 PM
07/09/11 12:06 PM
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Posts: 758
Seattle-ish, WA
Stephen Hazel Offline
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So there are daily reports of which exact songs were played in every restaurant and bar across the USA so ASCAP can pay the right author?

I wonder how that works...


http://PianoCheetah.app - my weird piano practice program
Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: Stephen Hazel] #1710173
07/09/11 12:14 PM
07/09/11 12:14 PM
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rocket88 Offline
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Originally Posted by Stephen Hazel
So there are daily reports of which exact songs were played in every restaurant and bar across the USA so ASCAP can pay the right author?

I wonder how that works...



Good question . . . this is all I could find, which does not directly answer your question, unfortuntely:

Quote
ASCAP collects licensing fees from users of music created by ASCAP members, then distributes them back to its members as royalties. In effect, the arrangement is the product of a compromise: when a song is played, the user does not have to pay the copyright holder directly, nor does the music creator have to bill a radio station for use of a song.
In 2008, ASCAP collected over US$933 million in licensing fees and distributed $817 million in royalties to its members, with an 11.3 percent operating expense ratio.[1] In the United States, ASCAP competes with two other PROs — Broadcast Music Incorporated (BMI) and the Society of European Stage Authors and Composers (SESAC).


From Wikipedia


Piano teacher.
Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: rocket88] #1710182
07/09/11 12:40 PM
07/09/11 12:40 PM
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Toronto, Canada
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MathTeacher Offline OP
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The school I teach at plays a radio hit every morning over the PA system before class, and it does it without paying the artists. How could I work at such a corrupt place?

Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher] #1710199
07/09/11 01:03 PM
07/09/11 01:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,493
Santa Fe, NM
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jotur Offline
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Santa Fe, NM
Radio stations, I believe, do turn in their playlists.

A nonprofit that rents its space to folk dancers here in NM was "caught" by, I believe, BMI and they now pay fees. The folkdancers use cds they personally own, but since the dances are open to the public legally the fees are owed. The playlists aren't turned in. I don't know how the fee company splits those royalties, since they're pretty obscure. Perhaps there's a category of obscure music that gets distributed by pro-rating of some kind.

I have no idea whether the various kinds of senior venues I play at should have a license - is the locked Alzheimer's unit a private residence or a public place? I don't know how the law is written. I don't know whether they, or the national corporation that owns them in some cases, have a license. But I can certainly envision a couple of them legally needing one. And again, it hasn't got to do with whether the performer is paid or not.

And I'd guess that your school, or school district, legally should have one. But I don't know all the ins and outs of the law. C'est la vie smile

Is it a nuisance? Why, yes it is. Does it cover fairly innocent uses of music? Why, yes it does. But many laws do the same. It's simply not possible to legislate for every individual situation, so in some ways laws will be overly broad. C'est la vie.

Didn't the Girl Scouts win? I'll have to look that up.

Cathy


Cathy
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Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher] #1710201
07/09/11 01:03 PM
07/09/11 01:03 PM
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Seattle-ish, WA
Stephen Hazel Offline
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That explains ASCAP in general.
But not the mechanism for paying each original artist.
Just wondering if the songs are actually tracked.
Or if it's a "oh we've done some statistical business calculations and we KNOW we got it right - here Mr. Springsteen" sort of thing.

Well, anyways, this is copyright of performance.
Which is different than copyright of sheet music, i think?

So although ASCAP is taking care of performance rights,
it's not keeping track of the musicians that may have stolen
their sheets.

What bugs me is when a song has no sheet music available
and =I= don't have decent transcribing skills.
So I guess transcribing is something to DEFINItely look into.
Well, time to hit google.
If any of ya have good tips on transcribing, this would be
a great thread to list em in smile


http://PianoCheetah.app - my weird piano practice program
Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher] #1710205
07/09/11 01:19 PM
07/09/11 01:19 PM
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Santa Fe, NM
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jotur Offline
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Ah. From what I can tell, the Girl Scouts pay a nominal fee of $1/year. So ASCAP has served notice they are legally due fees, but saved public face laugh

There are several forms of rights - copyright, performance, and mechanical for three. The mechanical is for making cds of your own performance, etc. I think there's a "you have to let me make a cd of my performance" clause once any one at all has been allowed to do so.

Again, some venues do turn in playlists. And some are probably statistical.

Cathy


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Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: Stephen Hazel] #1710208
07/09/11 01:21 PM
07/09/11 01:21 PM
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Toronto, Canada
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MathTeacher Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Stephen Hazel
What bugs me is when a song has no sheet music available
and =I= don't have decent transcribing skills.
So I guess transcribing is something to DEFINItely look into.
Well, time to hit google.
If any of ya have good tips on transcribing, this would be
a great thread to list em in smile


There is no transcribing forum. I personally had to get ear training to learn how to transcribe. EarMaster allowed me to recognize chords, and most of the radio hits out there consist almost entirely of major, minor, and 7th chords (but you still have to learn the other chords, because they do pop up every now and then). Don't always trust the guitar tabs out there, sometimes they are inaccurate and you will often see different "chord experts" giving slightly different answers.

Once you get the melody and its rhthym correct (I use an mp3 slowing device for fast songs), then the chords pretty much complete the transcription. Any bass melody is often just broken chords. Chords attached to the melody are usually just echoes of the current chord until the next chord change. Many songs we like share the same chord progressions. A good thing is that our voice tends to be good at transcribing melodies. Sing the melody and then play chords as you sing. You can get the correct chords that way too because if the chords match your singing, it is often correct. With practise you will be able to play the correct chords on your first guess as you sing.

The main challenge for me is instrumental melodies in the bass that is not a broken chord. They are sometimes really hard to hear because of higher, different melodies going on at the same time. I'm searching for a good program that makes the bass stand out, but so far the ones I've tried are not doing as well a job as I want. So sometimes I just make up the bass melody that seems to fit the upper melody. Some composing skills are required in transcribing as well. When you look at some advanced transcriptions, you will often find instrumental melodies that actually don't exist in the real song, but they do make it sound better for piano solo.

Last edited by MathTeacher; 07/09/11 01:39 PM.
Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher] #1710210
07/09/11 01:26 PM
07/09/11 01:26 PM
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curlyfries Offline
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Math Teacher this transcribing and arrangements for piano solo is a good idea because of course just the variety of music that isn't in piano solo arrangements because they only make a few piano solo books. Sounds like its not difficult to stay in legal copyright lane.

I guess I'm a little off topic.

Rocket and all thanks. Nursing homes, restaurants, weddings, funerals, churches and just all the places you see live modern music I have wondered about.

Busker...busque is to look.


Last edited by LindaR; 07/09/11 03:12 PM. Reason: legal issue


Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: MathTeacher] #1711961
07/12/11 01:05 PM
07/12/11 01:05 PM
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Safford, AZ
jasperkeys Offline
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Question: Would you think a transcription would be a copyright violation if there is no sheet music available for the recording? I really like the idea of a transcriber's website for music we've heard and love but knew there was no sheet music available anywhere? Check out the website. You might like it.

http://poptranscription.freeforums.org/

There are my transcriptions or adaptations for:

"Brooks Was Here" from the movie "Shawshank Redemption"

"MacArthur Park" instrumental allegro interlude from a totally ridiculous song by Richard Harris about leaving a cake out in the rain.

Love theme from the movie "Spartacus" which I changed the time signature from 3/4 to mostly 4/4.


"I wish there was a way to know you're in the good old days before you've actually left them." Andy Bernard
Re: Is it legal to sell advanced transcriptions of songs? [Re: jasperkeys] #1711974
07/12/11 01:20 PM
07/12/11 01:20 PM
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david_a Offline
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Originally Posted by jasperkeys
Question: Would you think a transcription would be a copyright violation if there is no sheet music available for the recording
Think about it this way:

There are no plans published for how to build a Ferrari. Does that mean (since those plans are missing) that Ferrari is not allowed to come after you for publishing them yourself?

Anything the publisher could have done (like publishing an advanced arrangement) but chose not to do, it's still their right to stop you from doing it. They want two things: money, AND full control. (Myself, I believe they deserve the money and the control, but not for nearly as many years as they have it now.)

Now, seriously, ARE they going to come after you? I have no idea.


(I'm a piano teacher.)
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