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Re: Kronos is out! [Re: Hideki Matsui] #1708328
07/06/11 10:02 AM
07/06/11 10:02 AM
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Posts: 1,722
Hancock Park LA (not again)
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Dr Popper Offline
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I predict this board will score rather highly on the Dewsters little tests ...

The keybed feels pretty awful though. Its not one of the great actions that's for sure.


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
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Re: Kronos is out! [Re: Dr Popper] #1708344
07/06/11 10:31 AM
07/06/11 10:31 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I predict this board will score rather highly on the Dewsters little tests ...

Maybe. I guess we're all anticipating no looping, probably no stretching. But PC samplers are rather notorious for poor pedal / key interaction so I'm anticipating some trouble there, though I would be very happy to be betting wrong.

Designers who take the pure sampling approach get by default a very rich, natural sounding pedal sympathetic resonance, but they never seem to take the time to make the mechanics of it work in a believable manner. Those who make modelers (e.g. Pianoteq) or hybrids (e.g. Roland SN) often do.

Re: Kronos is out! [Re: dewster] #1708345
07/06/11 10:33 AM
07/06/11 10:33 AM
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Hideki Matsui Offline OP
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I will get to it by tomorrow. A little busy today.


Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80
Re: Kronos is out! [Re: dewster] #1708416
07/06/11 12:10 PM
07/06/11 12:10 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 432
United States
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kippesc Offline
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Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
I predict this board will score rather highly on the Dewsters little tests ...

PC samplers are rather notorious for poor pedal / key interaction so I'm anticipating some trouble there, though I would be very happy to be betting wrong.

Designers who take the pure sampling approach get by default a very rich, natural sounding pedal sympathetic resonance, but they never seem to take the time to make the mechanics of it work in a believable manner. Those who make modelers (e.g. Pianoteq) or hybrids (e.g. Roland SN) often do.


A trenchant observation that cannot be emphasized enough. Software pianos often sound beautiful, but it is dismaying to me how unrealistic the behavior of most sampled software pianos is. For people who need a digital piano to practice in the woodshed on for what ultimately will be a performance on an acoustic piano, the Roland Supernatural (RD-700NX, in my case) and Pianoteq offerings seem to replicate playing an acoustic piano more accurately than any of the other digital options out there that I have tried. (And here's what I've tried: Yamaha N2 (great action, by the way), Garritan Steinway, Steinberg Grand 3, Ivory II, Galaxy Vintage D (beautiful sound -- if only I could play a real piano that beautifully).) I am making this comment here simply because I've grown tired of dumping money into these offerings in order figure out what works well. There is, unfortunately, no software piano showroom where one can go to play these things and compare them against one another, against dps, hybrids and fine acoustics.

Last edited by kippesc; 07/24/11 01:07 AM.

Steinway B
Yamaha AvantGrand N2
Roland RD-700NX
Re: Kronos is out! [Re: kippesc] #1708844
07/07/11 02:09 AM
07/07/11 02:09 AM
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Hideki Matsui Offline OP
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One Q. The pianos and EPs on the Kronos have true note off velocity. Audibly, I'm not sure exactly what effect it produces, but if you don't include that info in your midi file, the resulting wav playback will not be taking advantage of that subtle effect. I'm not sure that it matters for your test but I'm wondering if there is a way to write your file so that the Kronos is not being limited in that way?


Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80
Re: Kronos is out! [Re: Hideki Matsui] #1708991
07/07/11 10:53 AM
07/07/11 10:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
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Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
One Q. The pianos and EPs on the Kronos have true note off velocity. Audibly, I'm not sure exactly what effect it produces, but if you don't include that info in your midi file, the resulting wav playback will not be taking advantage of that subtle effect. I'm not sure that it matters for your test but I'm wondering if there is a way to write your file so that the Kronos is not being limited in that way?

Good question.

I actually just received a couple of DPBSD files for the Kronos and I can hear the key-up sound very clearly, it's fairly loud. I should add a test for key-up velocity support in the DPBSD, it currently uses note-on vel=0 for note-off (Sonar default).

Re: Kronos is out! [Re: dewster] #1709008
07/07/11 11:24 AM
07/07/11 11:24 AM
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Hideki Matsui Offline OP
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Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
One Q. The pianos and EPs on the Kronos have true note off velocity. Audibly, I'm not sure exactly what effect it produces, but if you don't include that info in your midi file, the resulting wav playback will not be taking advantage of that subtle effect. I'm not sure that it matters for your test but I'm wondering if there is a way to write your file so that the Kronos is not being limited in that way?

Good question.

I actually just received a couple of DPBSD files for the Kronos and I can hear the key-up sound very clearly, it's fairly loud. I should add a test for key-up velocity support in the DPBSD, it currently uses note-on vel=0 for note-off (Sonar default).


Are you set on the Kronos files or do you still need them from me?


Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80
Re: Kronos is out! [Re: Hideki Matsui] #1709107
07/07/11 02:05 PM
07/07/11 02:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
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Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
Are you set on the Kronos files or do you still need them from me?

I've got v1.9 files of the German and Japanese grands. I'm working on v2.1 of the DPBSD MIDI file to test key-up velocity noises and pedal noises.

Preliminary results on the German:

- I don't see any looping or stretching, I can see and hear at least 6 semi-blended layers (advertised as 8?) with the highest velocity layer having a strange thin sound and looking kind of tacked-on.

- Nice long decays, though C1 stops before key-up.

- 46.5 dB dynamic range

- Nice pedal sympathetic resonance, no key sympathetic resonance, fails silent replay, passes quick damping.

- Half pedal support is there, but barely.

- I can really hear the key-up "knock" - it's too loud (though you can probably adjust that and note-off velocity may modulate it).

Re: Kronos is out! [Re: dewster] #1709149
07/07/11 03:18 PM
07/07/11 03:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
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Providence Offline
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Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
Are you set on the Kronos files or do you still need them from me?

I've got v1.9 files of the German and Japanese grands. I'm working on v2.1 of the DPBSD MIDI file to test key-up velocity noises and pedal noises.

Preliminary results on the German:

- I don't see any looping or stretching, I can see and hear at least 6 semi-blended layers (advertised as 8?) with the highest velocity layer having a strange thin sound and looking kind of tacked-on.

- Nice long decays, though C1 stops before key-up.

- 46.5 dB dynamic range

- Nice pedal sympathetic resonance, no key sympathetic resonance, fails silent replay, passes quick damping.

- Half pedal support is there, but barely.

- I can really hear the key-up "knock" - it's too loud (though you can probably adjust that and note-off velocity may modulate it).


Thanks a million Dewster for the analysis. What are your feelings say about the Kronos (German) vs say the RD700NX pianos on first impressions?

Re: Kronos is out! [Re: Providence] #1709243
07/07/11 05:41 PM
07/07/11 05:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 151
7even Offline
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Originally Posted by Providence
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
Are you set on the Kronos files or do you still need them from me?

I've got v1.9 files of the German and Japanese grands. I'm working on v2.1 of the DPBSD MIDI file to test key-up velocity noises and pedal noises.

Preliminary results on the German:

- I don't see any looping or stretching, I can see and hear at least 6 semi-blended layers (advertised as 8?) with the highest velocity layer having a strange thin sound and looking kind of tacked-on.

- Nice long decays, though C1 stops before key-up.

- 46.5 dB dynamic range

- Nice pedal sympathetic resonance, no key sympathetic resonance, fails silent replay, passes quick damping.

- Half pedal support is there, but barely.

- I can really hear the key-up "knock" - it's too loud (though you can probably adjust that and note-off velocity may modulate it).


Thanks a million Dewster for the analysis. What are your feelings say about the Kronos (German) vs say the RD700NX pianos on first impressions?


Would love to hear this too.. the Kronos is tempting me right now mad


Now: RD-700NX
Someday: Steinway concert grand :|
Re: Kronos is out! [Re: Providence] #1709256
07/07/11 06:02 PM
07/07/11 06:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
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Originally Posted by Providence
What are your feelings say about the Kronos (German) vs say the RD700NX pianos on first impressions?

I'm not sure I'm the best one to ask. The DPBSD is more of a test for specific bad things, not sound quality per se. Others here that have hands-on experience with both should be able to help you soon. I'll try to get the review up in the next day or so.

Today FedEX brought me a bunch of stuff to finish my combo amp / speakers project so I've been spending some time on that.

Re: Kronos is out! [Re: dewster] #1709604
07/08/11 11:09 AM
07/08/11 11:09 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 761
Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
TADutchman Offline
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Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted by dewster
...I think 90% of the remaining experience is amps & speakers that are up to the task.
Nevertheless, so far only a limited number of people are willing to spend a considerable percentage of their DP budget on amps & speakers, which is a shame i.m.h.o. (at least when you're not mainly using headphones).


K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
Re: Kronos is out! [Re: TADutchman] #1709660
07/08/11 12:31 PM
07/08/11 12:31 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 787
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Hideki Matsui Offline OP
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Originally Posted by TADutchman
Originally Posted by dewster
...I think 90% of the remaining experience is amps & speakers that are up to the task.
Nevertheless, so far only a limited number of people are willing to spend a considerable percentage of their DP budget on amps & speakers, which is a shame i.m.h.o. (at least when you're not mainly using headphones).


If the goal is recreating acoustic experience, it isn't just about having great speakers and amps. I have run my DPs through everything from my Mackie HR824 MK2s to my Eggleston Andra IIs coupled with a full TACT room corrected system. I can get beautiful tone and nice projection, but the way sound is produced and resonates from my Shigeru would, at the very least, require a multichannel system that is playing back a source that has multiple discrete channels.

The Avant and V-grand both take steps in this direction, however, I think they have a long way to go to be successful in the goal of recreating the acoustic experience of a grand piano. Loudspeaker technology is limiting them as well as the fact that projecting sound in a natural way is going to require more than just making sure something sounds realistic in a stereo recording. They definitely have to use different recording/modeling techniques to get optimal playback on a 2 channel v multichannel playback system.

If the goal is to get a nice, fairly realistic piano sound in stereo, I think quite a few DPs can be the foundation for creating that experience. If the goal is to recreate the acoustic experience of a grand piano, I just don't think the tools currently exist to make that happen. That being said, I don't think that should necessarily be the priority, as the acoustic experience isn't required for a musical experience.

Last edited by Hideki Matsui; 07/08/11 12:52 PM.

Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80
Re: Kronos is out! [Re: Hideki Matsui] #1709843
07/08/11 04:51 PM
07/08/11 04:51 PM
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Hideki Matsui Offline OP
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Having spent a little more time with the Kronos, I have to say that it isn't as difficult to navigate as I would have expected. When it comes to playing with the piano and EP parameters it is pretty straightforward and accessible. The synth engines are really deep and require more knowledge.

The pianos and EPs are really enjoyable to play. The action is a non issue to me at this point. It is responsive and precise, even if clicks. I would prefer the CP1 action but am happy with Kronos action.

I'm going to start looking at the sequencer functions after the weekend, but I'm really impressed with the sound engines. This is a demo song made by Jordan Rudess with the piano engine of the Kronos. I think he has tweaked the German grand for the sound:

http://www.korg.co.uk/downloads/kronos/media/Interstices.mp3


Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80
Re: Kronos is out! [Re: Hideki Matsui] #1709863
07/08/11 05:15 PM
07/08/11 05:15 PM
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The Netherlands
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JFP Offline
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mmmmm, I'm always getting a little nervous by these JR demo's; tingle-tangle-tang-tingle-tingle-tingle-tang rush rush rush....look how many notes I can play in a microsecond. The fact is that simply because you CAN, doesn't mean you HAVE TO...

Some more balanced classical playing of a "moderate" piece would provide for a better impression on some subtleties of a grand-piano sounds than these nervous blocks of improvisations IMHO. Nevertheless great technique ...as always, but boring.

On topic; Kronos piano technology will of course trickle down on other Korg products like DP's and SV's and such some day. Probably not too long before that happens, because the DP range is already quite old. Hope they upgrade the keybeds then too.

Re: Kronos is out! [Re: Hideki Matsui] #1709886
07/08/11 06:07 PM
07/08/11 06:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
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Northern NJ
dewster Offline
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Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
The Avant and V-grand both take steps in this direction, however, I think they have a long way to go to be successful in the goal of recreating the acoustic experience of a grand piano. Loudspeaker technology is limiting them as well as the fact that projecting sound in a natural way is going to require more than just making sure something sounds realistic in a stereo recording.

It could also be that the reinforcement they are doing isn't entirely up to snuff. We've all seen what's inside of the average $1000 - $2000 DPs: small amps coupled to very inexpensive drivers with poor acoustic treatment. I don't know the first thing about what's in the AG, but it wouldn't shock me if we found its speakers retailing for $5 a pop.

Re: Kronos is out! [Re: JFP] #1709894
07/08/11 06:41 PM
07/08/11 06:41 PM
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Hideki Matsui Offline OP
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I'm not a fan of DT or JR, but I think you can piano quite a bit in the demo. As soon as I get to the sequencer I'll post some stuff that displays far less technical proficiency.

Originally Posted by JFP
mmmmm, I'm always getting a little nervous by these JR demo's; tingle-tangle-tang-tingle-tingle-tingle-tang rush rush rush....look how many notes I can play in a microsecond. The fact is that simply because you CAN, doesn't mean you HAVE TO...

Some more balanced classical playing of a "moderate" piece would provide for a better impression on some subtleties of a grand-piano sounds than these nervous blocks of improvisations IMHO. Nevertheless great technique ...as always, but boring.

On topic; Kronos piano technology will of course trickle down on other Korg products like DP's and SV's and such some day. Probably not too long before that happens, because the DP range is already quite old. Hope they upgrade the keybeds then too.


Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80
Re: Kronos is out! [Re: dewster] #1709902
07/08/11 07:03 PM
07/08/11 07:03 PM
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Hideki Matsui Offline OP
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Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
The Avant and V-grand both take steps in this direction, however, I think they have a long way to go to be successful in the goal of recreating the acoustic experience of a grand piano. Loudspeaker technology is limiting them as well as the fact that projecting sound in a natural way is going to require more than just making sure something sounds realistic in a stereo recording.

It could also be that the reinforcement they are doing isn't entirely up to snuff. We've all seen what's inside of the average $1000 - $2000 DPs: small amps coupled to very inexpensive drivers with poor acoustic treatment. I don't know the first thing about what's in the AG, but it wouldn't shock me if we found its speakers retailing for $5 a pop.


Speaker quality and amp quality are easy to address. The thing that distinguishes the AG (and V- grand) is that they are trying to recreate some of the dimensional aspects of a acoustic grand by providing multiple discrete channels that are being processed and output through discrete channels. You just aren't going to be able to reproduce the way an acoustic grand projects sound with a two channel source and speaker setup. It isn't really very different from trying to get surround sound from something that was recorded in 2 channels and is being played back through a stereo speaker setup.


Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80
Re: Kronos is out! [Re: Hideki Matsui] #1709920
07/08/11 08:38 PM
07/08/11 08:38 PM
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Glendale, Ca.
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Dave Ferris Offline
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Finally got to play the Kronos at Sam Ash in Hollyweird, but just the 61. I'll probably feel more excited about it after I play the 73/88. It was a pretty underwhelming experience AP wise. I was mostly focused on the 3 Roland DPs like I mentioned in that other thread and then noticed the kronos 61 over in corner. So playing the German Grand from a synth action was almost laughable. I'm sure it will be more positive playing the 73/88.


https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D
# 571692
Re: Kronos is out! [Re: Dave Ferris] #1709990
07/09/11 12:10 AM
07/09/11 12:10 AM
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Hideki Matsui Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Dave Ferris
Finally got to play the Kronos at Sam Ash in Hollyweird, but just the 61. I'll probably feel more excited about it after I play the 73/88. It was a pretty underwhelming experience AP wise. I was mostly focused on the 3 Roland DPs like I mentioned in that other thread and then noticed the kronos 61 over in corner. So playing the German Grand from a synth action was almost laughable. That and the Herbie EP sounded good for sure but all the "other stuff"---sorry but I've come to a point in my life where all that is just sleep sleep

I'm sure it will be more positive playing the 73/88.


Yeah, when I first played the 61 it was really strange trying to play piano with a synth action. It felt like the sound was disconnected from the action. The RH3 obviously gives you a totally different experience. I really never got into the SV1 because of the action, but the sounds on the Kronos really overcome any shortcomings of the RH3 for me.

I'm not sure that the Kronos is right for you. Even though the pianos and EPs are great, you would end paying for a ton of technology you don't need. I will say that anyone looking for a workstation should get some time in with the Kronos because it is the legendary OASYS with new sound engines and more power.

Personally, I find the pianos on the Kronos to have the most organic sound of any DP I have played. I'm not sure it is enough to justify buying a workstation if you are looking for a DP, but it is certainly a pretty amazing creative tool.


Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80
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