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Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
bennevis #1707866 07/05/11 03:47 PM
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Mobile phones are great and very useful except that many people will think that you are some sort of antisocial weirdo for having the audacity to actually turn the damned thing off when you do not wish to be disturbed. Own a mobile phone and some people behave as if it is THEIR right to contact you whenever THEY choose and therefore turning off your phone is somehow taking liberties. It really is quite peculiar.

On topic, I am going to the V-Piano Grand Concert next week. I received an email last week to say that the tickets are on the way but also that very few tickets are left so if anyone is thinking about going, they had better register for tickets asap.

Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
DazedAndConfused #1708286 07/06/11 07:06 AM
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I'll be going to the premiere as well, its just down the road from me so will pop over after dinner smile

Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
bennevis #1713057 07/14/11 05:21 AM
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The event was well attended (maybe the champagne reception preceding the concert had something to do with it? cool), and I chatted to some music students as well as classical music enthusiasts who don't actually play, but just came for the concert (- always a good sign, in my book).

My first impression of the V-Piano Grand's sound was somewhat disappointing: from where I was sitting (20ft from the stage), it seemed to be lacking in brilliance and resonance, though the bass was good. The V-P G is the size of a baby grand and sounded somewhat like one, with muted treble and a generally tubby sound, though its bass was far superior to any acoustic grand of this size.

Midway through the first half, the Roland representative gave an excellent illustrated short talk on the V-Piano & Grand, and showed how they differ from sampled DPs. The slide showing how sampling is done is intriguing - about a hundred mikes poking into the innards of a grand. He connected a computer to the Grand to demonstrate how changing the parameters changes the sound, and played it himself - very well too.

After the interval, Daniel Tong was joined by two colleagues to play trios by Haydn and Dvorák. The fortepiano setting he used for the Haydn didn't sound very convincing, I must say (I've heard Walter fortepianos on recordings though never played one). That was the only time in the whole concert that he used a different setting. I suspected that he hadn't tweaked the parameters, and simply used Vintage Piano 1 in its factory preset. (BTW, the performances themselves were excellent).

When the concert had finished, I went up to the stage to have a closer look. It looked like a user-setting which had all the parameters set at zero, though not one of the original factory presets. But surprisingly, when close up, the sound had the brilliance and resonance and overtones which had seemed lacking when heard from the stalls. Still, when I got the chance (after the other interested people had had their go at playing it), I increased the decay time and put the tone color up a notch. The sound was transformed - I dared to pull out all the stops and inflicted some fffff on it (though the music score of the Schumann/Liszt Widmung that I was playing only indicated fff grin). I immediately felt like I was playing on a rich-sounding 9ft concert grand, and the uncanny sensation of that continued onto gentler music. It's been a while since I enjoyed playing a piano this much - actually since the last time I was at a piano showroom (Fazioli/Kawai). I could have played for hours....

Unfortunately, the removal men had already started to dismantle the furnishings around the stage and two blokes were waiting in the wings to pounce on the V-Piano Grand.... cry


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
bennevis #1713085 07/14/11 07:19 AM
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Thanks for the review bennevis - it sounds like a terrific event.

A colleague recently attended a similar showcase in Sydney - I'll forward your review to him for comparison.

Cheers,
James
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Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
bennevis #1713086 07/14/11 07:25 AM
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The brochure handed out at the event showed that London and Milan have their V-P Grand premieres this month, to be followed by Beijing in August, then Budapest in October. Osaka and Tokyo had it in February and again in June, LA and NY in March, followed by several European and Australasian cities.

It looks like you missed your opportunity in Japan..... grin


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
bennevis #1713097 07/14/11 07:42 AM
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I'm sure I'll have a chance to see/try the V-Piano Grand in the not too distant future.

By the way, do you recall if the piano was amplified in any way?

Cheers,
James
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"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
bennevis #1713174 07/14/11 11:10 AM
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No, it was a traditional classical concert setting (apart from the electric cable connected to the V-P Grand). The piano's lid was fully up, and the pianist had the keyboard lid on its lower position to hide the console display so as not to be distracted by LED display and buttons (not possible on the original V-Piano).


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
bennevis #1713379 07/14/11 04:51 PM
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It was a very enjoyable and interesting experience, listening to the V-Piano Grand in the very capable hands of Daniel Tong at the Britten Theatre last night.

I went to the concert with my friend, a piano teacher who also gives recitals.

I haven't got a lot of time so I will go into more detail later but my overall impression is that the V-Piano Grand is an incredible achievement by Roland, an amazing music instrument in its own right and is in a totally different league to every DP that I have ever heard.

In terms of tone generation, it is absolutely incredible. The range of tones it is capable of from the keyboard alone (in the capable hands of a virtuoso concert pianist) is jaw dropping and has to be heard to be believed. As my friend said (after John Maul played around with the tuning), on single notes and simple passages he would defy anyone to state with any confidence that they were listening to electronics.

Unfortunately, the amplification and speakers are not up to the same standard. In the Britten Theatre, on occasion the V-Piano Grand sounded relatively underpowered, especially during complex passages.

For example the first and third sections of Chopin's Nocturne in F were absolutely delightful and thoroughly convincing but it was plainly obvious during the dramatic second section that the amplification and/or speakers couldn't cope with the dynamics at the volume necessary to project to the back of the hall, like a supercar nearing its top speed and running out of acceleration. The bass was muddled and the overall sound was compressed.

This is its Achilles heel and the main area, for me, where the acoustic concert grand is still quite some way ahead of its DP cousin in a concert setting. Obviously I cannot talk about touch sensitivity, keyboard action etc as I haven't played it but Daniel Tong seemed very comfortable and I only heard one mistake near the start of the first piece.

Is it a great leap forward? I haven't had the opportunity to play it yet but I would have to say yes. My friend was also very impressed and cannot wait to play it. We both felt that last night we might have been at a very special event akin to the first time we ever heard a CD.

For sure my next digital piano will not be the V-Piano Grand (too expensive) but it will be modelled and it will definitely contain no samples. It will be one of the V-Piano Granddaddy's cheaper descendants.


Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
bennevis #1713396 07/14/11 05:11 PM
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Are classical concerts not miced/amplified, though?

James
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"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
DazedAndConfused #1713410 07/14/11 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by DazedAndConfused


We both felt that last night we might have been at a very special event akin to the first time we ever heard a CD.



Oh dear, that bad was it?


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Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
DazedAndConfused #1713429 07/14/11 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Are classical concerts not miced/amplified, though?

James
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No I don't believe so. That's why they use 9' grands because the sheer projection power of such a beast easily fills concert halls. James have you seen the Fazioli F308? It's 10'2"...what a beast!

http://www.fazioli.com/en/


Originally Posted by DazedAndConfused


In terms of tone generation, it is absolutely incredible. The range of tones it is capable of from the keyboard alone (in the capable hands of a virtuoso concert pianist) is jaw dropping and has to be heard to be believed. As my friend said (after John Maul played around with the tuning), on single notes and simple passages he would defy anyone to state with any confidence that they were listening to electronics.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0-dC7eT_Oo
I admit, this does sound quite convincing in some areas, though the mid-less soul of the V-Piano/Grand rears is lifeless head as well.

Last edited by ZacharyForbes; 07/14/11 06:09 PM.

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Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
bennevis #1713477 07/14/11 07:16 PM
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Thank you Zachary.

Perhaps I am thinking of the other instruments in an orchestra?
Ah, maybe they are miced (mic'd?) for recording/broadcasting purposes?

Kind regards,
James
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"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
bennevis #1713670 07/15/11 04:58 AM
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No, classical concerts are never amplified/miked (except for broadcasting purposes), except when in artificial settings like the Opening Ceremony in the Bird's Nest of the Beijing Olympics, or the Atlanta Olympics. Not even in the BBC Proms in the vast spaces of the Royal Albert Hall which is directly opposite the RCM (which starts this evening, by the way - check out the BBC website (www.bbc.co.uk/proms) for possible live streaming. In the UK, it's live on BBC TV and Radio 3 of course).

That's why opera singers have such huge projection of their voices, and why classical pianists have to be able to whisper at pppp and roar at ffffff, yet be able to project to the back of the concert hall at all dynamic & tonal ranges. But I digress (sorry, I'm really hooked on classical music and wish more people would listen to it, and play it... grin).


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
DazedAndConfused #1713675 07/15/11 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by DazedAndConfused


In terms of tone generation, it is absolutely incredible. The range of tones it is capable of from the keyboard alone (in the capable hands of a virtuoso concert pianist) is jaw dropping and has to be heard to be believed. As my friend said (after John Maul played around with the tuning), on single notes and simple passages he would defy anyone to state with any confidence that they were listening to electronics.

Unfortunately, the amplification and speakers are not up to the same standard. In the Britten Theatre, on occasion the V-Piano Grand sounded relatively underpowered, especially during complex passages.

For example the first and third sections of Chopin's Nocturne in F were absolutely delightful and thoroughly convincing but it was plainly obvious during the dramatic second section that the amplification and/or speakers couldn't cope with the dynamics at the volume necessary to project to the back of the hall, like a supercar nearing its top speed and running out of acceleration. The bass was muddled and the overall sound was compressed.

This is its Achilles heel and the main area, for me, where the acoustic concert grand is still quite some way ahead of its DP cousin in a concert setting. Obviously I cannot talk about touch sensitivity, keyboard action etc as I haven't played it but Daniel Tong seemed very comfortable and I only heard one mistake near the start of the first piece.

Is it a great leap forward? I haven't had the opportunity to play it yet but I would have to say yes. My friend was also very impressed and cannot wait to play it. We both felt that last night we might have been at a very special event akin to the first time we ever heard a CD.

For sure my next digital piano will not be the V-Piano Grand (too expensive) but it will be modelled and it will definitely contain no samples. It will be one of the V-Piano Granddaddy's cheaper descendants.



Hi, it's a pity you and your teacher friend didn't stay on to have a go at playing the V-P Grand yourselves. I too thought at some points that the instrument's amplification & speakers left something to be desired (at a few moments in the climax of the Janacek Sonata, I thought I heard distortion, but the DP expert sitting beside me told me it was sympathetic buzzing from something - likely one of the props - on the stage). But when I tweaked it a little and then played it, it had absolutely no trouble with fffff, as I mentioned earlier. The power was truly awesome - and I'm comparing it now to the Fazioli F278 that I played in their showroom not long ago. Like acoustic concert grands, there seemed no limit to how much tone (and range of tone) you can get out of the V-P Grand - once it's been tweaked appropriately.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
bennevis #1713767 07/15/11 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
I'm really hooked on classical music and wish more people would listen to it, and play it... grin).


+100! I love Classical music, and more deep I go, the more I realize that I'm merely scratching the surface. The depth of the composers is mind blowing. I've been on a Rachmaninov kick lately, specifically Piano Concertos No. 2/No. 3. The second movement, Adagio, of the Concerto No. 2 is quite possibly one of the most moving pieces of music ever written to me. Rach's music stirs the soul. Before I pass on to the next phase of eternity, I will learn to play those 2 concertos. smile


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Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
PianoZac #1713777 07/15/11 10:42 AM
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With all due respect Bennevis, I think the reason it sounded better to you when you were up there playing it yourself is because you lose some perspective on how the sound is being projected when you sit that close to the sound source. The quality of the sound engine (in this case the V engine) and the volume that can be achieved are two parts of the puzzle, but there are a few more, including how the source is being processed and the design of the loudspeaker system.

Even without having ever played the V-grand, I know that 4 discrete channels of processing coupled with any loudspeaker setup is not going to get you a projection of sound that can replicate a natural acoustic instrument. It doesn't have to do with the quality of the V-piano sound, but what kind of processes are being used to break that sound in multiple channels and how that sound is being projected into a given space. I have said many times before that I believe both the N3 and V-grand are taking a step in the right direction by going with multichannel processing. Nevertheless, I think they are at the infancy of understanding how to fully utilize that approach.

Most reports of the V-grand I have read indicate that from a distance, it simply doesn't have the presence or projection of a real grand. That is exactly what I would expect given my understating of the limitations of loudspeaker technology and because at most, Roland is utilizing 4 discrete channels. When you sit at the player's position, much like an acoustic grand, you aren't going to be able to get a clear perspective on how your piano is really projecting it's sound. That is why I'm not surprised things sounded much better to you when you were playing the V-grand yourself.

IMO, companies are getting closer to replicating the sound of a recorded piano, but when it comes to replicating an acoustic instrument in it's entirety, they have quite a way to go.

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Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
bennevis #1713810 07/15/11 11:48 AM
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You may be right, and another factor is of course the hall acoustic itself - with the audience gone, the acoustic becomes warmer (it was somewhat dry during the concert itself with all the absorbent flesh around... grin), and when I played, the sound projected to the back of the hall and bounced back to me, making me sound more powerful than my puny frame would suggest grin.

The Roland representative showed us how the speakers in the V-P Grand were optimized to give as realistic a sound picture to the pianist as possible (bass notes on the left, treble on the right, 'string resonance', soundboard resonances etc all emanating from the proper parts of the instrument) without mentioning whether it was designed to bounce off the raised lid and then to the audience sitting to the right of the pianist. Though of course if the lid is raised to 45 deg, it should bounce in the right direction, just like in a real grand.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
bennevis #1713941 07/15/11 02:28 PM
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Zachary, I'd love to know what you could do with Liszt's Consolation No.3 - which has been described as the saddest piece of music ever written in a major key. It really gets to me for some reason. There is some challenging rhythmic stuff going on in the structure (challenging to a dunce like me that is).

Played a tad fast here perhaps but otherwise, perfection:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS5LRRsNYZk

Steve


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Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
bennevis #1713952 07/15/11 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Hi, it's a pity you and your teacher friend didn't stay on to have a go at playing the V-P Grand yourselves.


Sadly we were not as enterprising as you and also we were seated upstairs in the Dress Circle as my friend insited on sitting somewhere where he could watch the pianist's hands. frown



Quote
I too thought at some points that the instrument's amplification & speakers left something to be desired (at a few moments in the climax of the Janacek Sonata, I thought I heard distortion, but the DP expert sitting beside me told me it was sympathetic buzzing from something - likely one of the props - on the stage). But when I tweaked it a little and then played it, it had absolutely no trouble with fffff, as I mentioned earlier. The power was truly awesome - and I'm comparing it now to the Fazioli F278 that I played in their showroom not long ago. Like acoustic concert grands, there seemed no limit to how much tone (and range of tone) you can get out of the V-P Grand - once it's been tweaked appropriately.


Even without playing it, I have no doubt that the V-Piano Grand was giving Daniel Tong all the feedback he needed. The exquisite sensitivity of his performance would not have been possible otherwise but I must agree with Hideki Matsui when he wrote:

Quote
..... it simply doesn't have the presence or projection of a real grand. That is exactly what I would expect given my understating of the limitations of loudspeaker technology and because at most, Roland is utilizing 4 discrete channels.


Take into account that audiophiles can and do spend as much as the V-Piano Grand costs on sound sources, amplification and speakers for the home that can go from ppp to fffff and back in a flash while sounding natural and uncompressed and it isn't really all that surprising that the Roland amplification isn't as good. It would be interesting to see what could happen if Roland make a no expense spared V-Grand Piano in conjunction with a really high end audiophile company that have a better understanding of multichannel audio. The Roland / Meridian V-Piano Grand anybody?

But I cannot wait to play and listen to it as it is in a smaller room. My guess is that it will be much more convincing and visceral experience.

Re: Roland V-Grand premiere in London 13th July
bennevis #1714490 07/16/11 02:08 PM
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I must admit that I'm so used to my V-Piano (having had it now for over a year) that if Daniel Tong didn't get all the nuances out of the V-Grand that he did (even with the less than optimal tweaking of the parameters in terms of tone and resonances, IMO), I'd have assumed that he wasn't up to the job grin. I can get all the tone colours out of my V-Piano that I can from any concert grand, and the only limitation is my technique and keyboard control, but I'm still working on getting them up to Krystian Zimerman's standard.... grin.

Do play on the V-P Grand soon and let me know what you think.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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