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Hi there, I'm about to purchase a Digital Piano, but i tought i'd ask for some information from you guys first  I cant decide between the Kawai CA93, CS6 or 9 and the Yamaha Avantgrand N1. The thing is, i'm from a small city in Holland and it is almost impossible to find a Kawai dealer, the one closest by is a 1 hour drive away and they dont have the CS9 (yet) for display, however you can purchase/reserve one online. And ofcourse, when you purchase one online, you cant send it back after a month if your dissapointed about the DP, cause your officialy the owner then. I have read good things about the Kawai DP's here on the boards, especialy about the touch, so my question is, is there a big difference between the N1 avantgrand and the Kawai CA93/CS9 touch wise. The Kawai CA93 is about 3000 euro's, the N1 6000 euro's. I belive the CS models are somewhere in the middle. The N1 does have a build in acoustic grand keyboard action, and i mainly play classical music, like Beethoven and Chopin, so musical expressions like fortissimo, sforzando's and ppp are important to me. However, i dont wanna end up paying 3000 euro's extra if both brands are able to deliver the same action, skill wise. I do like the piano sound of the Kawai, at least what i heard from online video reviews, i self have played on a acoustic Yamaha U3 almost my entire life, so sound differences between the two is not realy a big deal for me. Stuff like extra sounds and bells i am not interested in cause it mainly distracts a person anyways. So, what do you folks think, has any of you been able to try out both the N1 and the Kawai CA/CS models side by side?
Yamaha AvantGrand N1, KORG Pa4X Oriental
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Hi there, I'm about to purchase a Digital Piano, but i tought i'd ask for some information from you guys first I cant decide between the Kawai CA93, CS6 or 9 and the Yamaha Avantgrand N1. The thing is, i'm from a small city in Holland and it is almost impossible to find a Kawai dealer, the one closest by is a 1 hour drive away and they dont have the CS9 (yet) for display, however you can purchase/reserve one online. And ofcourse, when you purchase one online, you cant send it back after a month if your dissapointed about the DP, cause your officialy the owner then. I have read good things about the Kawai DP's here on the boards, especialy about the touch, so my question is, is there a big difference between the N1 avantgrand and the Kawai CA93/CS9 touch wise. The Kawai CA93 is about 3000 euro's, the N1 6000 euro's. I belive the CS models are somewhere in the middle. The N1 does have a build in acoustic grand keyboard action, and i mainly play classical music, like Beethoven and Chopin, so musical expressions like fortissimo, sforzando's and ppp are important to me. However, i dont wanna end up paying 3000 euro's extra if both brands are able to deliver the same action, skill wise. I do like the piano sound of the Kawai, at least what i heard from online video reviews, i self have played on a acoustic Yamaha U3 almost my entire life, so sound differences between the two is not realy a big deal for me. Stuff like extra sounds and bells i am not interested in cause it mainly distracts a person anyways. So, what do you folks think, has any of you been able to try out both the N1 and the Kawai CA/CS models side by side? If you're mainly focused on the classical side, than N1 is a no brainer. At 6000 euro it caugh my eye too for the future. The main differnce is that N1 has authentic grand action and Ca93 does not. If 3000 euro are not that big deal to you, get the N1.
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CA93 can't give you the same action as N1 dose. However, it is really up to you. If that extra 3000 euro isn't a big deal I will highly recommend N1.
At the same time I'd suggest you go to the store and lay your figures onto these piano. As for piano, touching and hearing will say everything.
Last edited by James Q; 07/03/11 02:49 PM.
Let's enjoy playing the piano.
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I don't think I would ever make a "blind" decision on a piano.
If I were unable to try the Kawai (or any piano) before purchase, I would not buy it.
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I've played the AvantGrand N1 and CA93/MP10. Between the two, the N1 has superior action. It felt just like the CFIIIS sitting next to it that I played while in the Yamaha store. The CA93/MP10 both have outstanding actions, and outside of the AvantGrand series, Kawai's RM3 Wooden action is the best out there IMHO. I think short of fully authentic grand piano action like that found in the AvantGrands, the RM3 action inside Kawai's top of the line DPs is as good as it gets for digitals. I was about to buy the MP10, and just before I headed down to purchase it, my wife and I had a long talk...  She felt that after the purchase of my NP88 and NE3 61, she didn't want to spend more money on another digital. After visiting the Yamaha dealer this past weekend is fine spending 3 times of an MP10 on an N1! Go figure . If all goes as planned, I should have an N1 soon as my acoustic substitute (am going back to school for piano performance/composition) for several years, and when space/money permits, will trade/sell up to a Kawai RX-6/RX-7/Steinway B/Bosendorfer 214C/etc.
Last edited by ZacharyForbes; 07/03/11 04:39 PM.
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Ozan, welcome to the forum.
If money is no object, I would opt for the N1 as I believe it offers the most realistic keyboard action in a digital instrument (it utilises a real GP keyboard action, after all). However, if money is no object, perhaps the more visually appealing N2 (or N3?) would be a more suitable choice?
The CA93 offers an impressive piano playing experience, with an excellent action, very dynamic keyboard sound, and the benefits of a wooden soundboard speaker.
The CS9 is essentially the same instrument as the CA93 (albeit with additional 'Virtual Technician' controls), but housed within a K-2-like compact upright. In my opinion, it is one of the most visually appealing digital pianos available, and once formally announced by Kawai Europe, will undoubtedly be marketed as such.
As others have stated however, I would strongly recommend play-testing the instruments (or nearest equivalents) before making any purchasing decisions. In my opinion, a one hour drive isn't too far to travel when you could potentially be spending 6000 euros.
I hope this helps.
Kind regards,
James
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Zachary, congrats on the N1...zannen about the MP10!
Cheers,
James
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Ozan, welcome to the forum! Are we neighbors?
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Hi, Dave, thanks I live on Texel, Den Burg, i belive Vught lies in the middle of Holland, so if i would visit you for a cop of coffey, i would have to take a boat and a train trip, heh heh. Btw, thanks for the info/feedback guys I guess i should consider trying out the Kawai models if i can find a store wich has one on display, but my heart says Avantgrand N1. Its too bad realy, Kawai has a realy good piano sound, i like the darkish/mellow sound of it, Yamaha leans more to brightish. Maybe they should also consider a Grand Piano Action in there models? That would be great. I noticed, almost every dealer i phoned, they ended the conversation with "Kawai, hmmm, you should consider Yamaha it is more populair" etc .. So it looks like Kawai is always a step behind, here in Holland at least, commercial wise. Do you guys btw know if the N1 comes pre assembled? There is no information on it, it does say it weighs about 120 kg's, i dont know if it is possible to push/carry the thing upstairs to a second floor with a couple of strong guys, i think the companies that deliver the piano charge extra money for second floors.
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Ozan, I've not been to Texel but have biked Terschelling. If you're ever down in Noord Brabant you're welcome to visit with us.
Do you guys btw know if the N1 comes pre assembled?
If you order an N1 from a Yamaha dealer I would expect him to set it up for you as part of his service. I would also expect the price to be the same whether he delivers it or not though I would expect him to deliver it. (I've been wrong before though.) I'd make a few phone calls to see if anyone even has an N1 on the floor.
I bought my N3 from Clavis in Nieuwegein (not too far from Utrecht), they have another location in Amsterdam.
You can easily find the dealers for Yamaha that sell the AvantGrand from Yamaha's site.
As I recall when I looked for a dealer I learned there were five in the entire country that carried the AvantGrand and the closest for me was Nieuwegein which really wasn't that close at all.
Last edited by Dave Horne; 07/04/11 08:33 AM.
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Does anyone have any idea whether the N1 action will need to be regulated over time? When looking to buy a DP, I assumed that when if a DP had an authentic GP action, then that implied some of the maintenance that goes along with it.
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@Dave Yes, they have one in stock at Clavis in Amsterdam, its the closest by Piano dealer, i gave them a call, gonna try it out one of these days. They even have a rent to buy option I think i should also consider extra waranty on the top of the standard 2 year waranty, you never know i guess, better be safe then sorry. They also have the N2 but if there isnt a big difference, then i ll keep the extra 4000 euros in my pocket, i mean come on, 10000 euros for a DP, its kind of diefstal, dont you think How long did you had your N3? And do the keys feel good under your fingers till today? Coker made a good point btw, do the N series need maintenance? @Kawai James Thanks for the info, i guess i totaly missed that the CS6/9 have a Grand Piano Action, i tought they also had the normal RM3 action like the other models. So this is kind of strange then, if the CS6/9 models also have a GP Action, then why is almost everybody still opting for the N1/2/3 GP Action? Is the Yamaha Grand action better then the CS6/9 Grand action? Or maybe nobody compared them yet, did you get the chance to try out the CS6/9?
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Thanks for the info, i guess i totaly missed that the CS6/9 have a Grand Piano Action, i tought they also had the normal RM3 action like the other models. The CS6/CS9 use the same keyboard action as the CA93 - 'RM3 Grand' with let-off. May I ask why you thought otherwise? Kind regards, James x
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How long did you had your N3? And do the keys feel good under your fingers till today?
I bought my N3 in April or May 2010. The keys still feel just fine though in four or five years I'll have the action worked on (just as I would any acoustic action). I'm expecting Yamaha to introduce a newer version of this technology in five years or so and if that's the case I'll just trade up and not have the action worked on.
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I personally think the N1 is somewhat quite different than the typical digital piano. I have a CA63 and am really happy. What you get for the price is great. Very nice keyboard action (I think the best out there) and for my needs just perfect Comparing it to the N1 which has a real Grand piano action, I would of course go for this piece of equipment. If you have the money and are looking for something closer to the real thing, this is the closest you can get (not taking the N2 and N3 into consideration).
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I personally think the N1 is somewhat quite different than the typical digital piano. I personally think the CS9 is somewhat quite different than the typical digital piano. 
K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
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Only the looks. The action is the same on the CS9.
The N1 has the far superior action. I think even better than the N3 I played this week.
But I have to say that Yamaha does not have the best build quality. I was really upset about the cabinet on the N1.
Hard to believe if you have a price tag of 6.500,- Euro...
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Belger, the action on the N1 is the same as the N3. What was the issue with the cabinet on the N1?
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Only the looks. The action is the same on the CS9. Don't forget the impact of the soundboard and 6-speaker system which is integrated in the CS9 and CA93 cabinet (i.e. in general not underestimating the importance of amps & speakers, as was also mentioned in another recent thread).
K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
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Belger, the action on the N1 is the same as the N3. What was the issue with the cabinet on the N1? The N1 cabinetry sucks. It's basically big (deep). I guess they made it big to keep people buy the N2.
Last edited by Pawelekg; 07/11/11 06:53 AM.
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Between the CS9 and CA93, is the difference only in cabinetry or is the sound engine of the CS9 going to be a newer version? From the specifications there are some nuances in the Virtual Technician between them, it seems.
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KJ: Thanks for that link. I've never before seen the CS-series pianos.
Kawai did a nice job on these. Finally, a digital that truly looks like a piano!
Maybe I'll take a trip to try one out soon.
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Pawelekg, you are correct. The CA93 and CS9 both share the same piano sampling technology, however the CS9 offers additional Virtual Technician parameters.
MacMacMac, the US is a few months behind Europe in terms of new product releases. The CS3 should already be in dealer's stores, with the CS6 to follow shortly. The CS9 is still under consideration by Kawai America.
Kind regards,
James
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Belger, the action on the N1 is the same as the N3. What was the issue with the cabinet on the N1? The N1 cabinetry sucks. It's basically big (deep). I guess they made it big to keep people buy the N2. Huh?? The cabinet sucks because it's big? It has to be as big and deep as it is to support the full size grand piano action and speaker system. I'm not following your logic here. I'm about to buy the N1 because I'll get it for $4000 less than the dealer would sell the N2. I played the N1 in a very large showroom and it filled the room with ease, and sounded quite good.
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Belger, the action on the N1 is the same as the N3. What was the issue with the cabinet on the N1? Yes, that was the funny thing. The keys were a little bit harder to press on the N1 and also the depth (when you press the key from top to bottom) was larger/deeper (and better). I could also feel the key-off effect much better than on the N3. I did´nt like the feel of the N3. The issues on the cabinet where not the size rather than the build quality. The left console with the buttons was completely loose. For that price I do expect something better, even for a preseries model oder an exibition piano. Hope the other ones are better. By the way....why did´nt they make everything in a glossy black? The back legs are just plain (cheap) wood.
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Yes, that was the funny thing.
The keys were a little bit harder to press on the N1 and also the depth (when you press the key from top to bottom) was larger/deeper (and better). I could also feel the key-off effect much better than on the N3. I did´nt like the feel of the N3.
I played the N1 and N3 and didn't notice a discernible difference in feel, in fact with headphones on, and TRS off (N3), they feel identical, because, well they are. I was considering splurging for the N2 but since it's half again the price of the N1 for slightly better speakers, ivorite keys, and TRS, it's worth going with the N1. The N1 will be my practice instrument while finishing school. That's unfortunate about the cabinet. The N1 I played was in perfectly good shape.
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Yes, that was the funny thing.
The keys were a little bit harder to press on the N1 and also the depth (when you press the key from top to bottom) was larger/deeper (and better). I could also feel the key-off effect much better than on the N3. I did´nt like the feel of the N3.
That's unfortunate about the cabinet. The N1 I played was in perfectly good shape. I´m still hoping the best since I really like the N1.
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Though I have not played the N1, I have watched the Yamaha videos about the product... the only thing I don't like about it is that it sounds like a Yamaha ;P
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Though I have not played the N1, I have watched the Yamaha videos about the product... the only thing I don't like about it is that it sounds like a Yamaha ;P Well, yet another perk of the AvantGrands is the ability to use them to connect to a computer and run software. I'm already planning on hooking the N1 up to my NP88 and using the pianos. the N1's outstanding action combined with the Nord Piano Library's samples ought to be one killer combo.
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Zachary, when do you accept delivery?
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Zachary, that is indeed a great combination!
Best of luck with your new DP!
Cheers,
James
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Belger, the action on the N1 is the same as the N3. What was the issue with the cabinet on the N1? The N1 cabinetry sucks. It's basically big (deep). I guess they made it big to keep people buy the N2. Huh?? The cabinet sucks because it's big? It has to be as big and deep as it is to support the full size grand piano action and speaker system. I'm not following your logic here. The N1 is deeper then the N2: N1 is 618mm, N2 is 531mm while typical Clavinova is 513mm. I can see no reason for the N1 being deeper then N2. If you have to fit in a flat, every couple of milimeters make a difference.
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Kawai CS9 demonstration video (in German): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G94EwilocW4No comments about the ring please. Kind regards, James x
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The ring goes nicely with the shirt! I just had to James...
Good review. I understood about an eighth of what he was saying and the piano sounds nice!
Nord Grand, Kawai MP11 (v1), iMac 2017, Yamaha HS8's, Sennheiser 650, Focusrite 2i4, Pianoteq 6.4.0, Steinway Model A, Mason and Hamlin Model AA, Piano Marvel: 3C
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Well, yet another perk of the AvantGrands is the ability to use them to connect to a computer and run software. I'm already planning on hooking the N1 up to my NP88 and using the pianos. the N1's outstanding action combined with the Nord Piano Library's samples ought to be one killer combo. Well, that is pretty much any DP (I'm saying pretty much because I just KNOW someone will find an obscure DP with no MIDI out). But I agree.... N1 with Nord samples sounds like a stellar combo! Kawai America needs to bring this to the US 
Last edited by azandj; 07/13/11 12:36 AM.
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I prefer spending 2000 more to get the N1 and the grand piano action which is really worth it, rather then going for the CS9. But the CS9 is a nice instrument
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Belger1900, the CS9 is listed on the Thomann.de site at 3699 Euros. Assuming the N1 quotation of 6000 Euros in Ozan's initial post is accurate, that's still quote a jump in price (2300 Euros).
While they are undoubtedly both excellent instruments, I believe the CS9 and N1 will occupy rather different sections of the premium DP market.
Kind regards,
James
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Zachary, when do you accept delivery? Two weeks. I'm selling my 27" iMac since I never use for recording, and using that to put money down on it. I could go buy it today (well fincance it entirely), but since we aren't outright buying it, we'd rather be patient and finance several thousand less. I've spent about 5 hours playing the N1 through 2 separate trips and have become well acquainted with the lady who is selling the N1 to me. She has it on hold for me. Very excited! I played the N3 as well Dave, and for all intents and purposes, that is a grand piano. It plays and sound better than most pianos below a C2. I wasn't a believer of the AvantGrands until I played them. They're perfect for someone in my shoes-need the grand piano action for technique, don't have the space or money to buy what I'd like, and ability to practice silently. Zachary, that is indeed a great combination!
Best of luck with your new DP!
Cheers,
James
x Thanks James! I have to say though, the samples inside the AvantGrands sound amazing themselves. BTW, that CS9 is gorgeous and really nice sounding DP. Belger, the action on the N1 is the same as the N3. What was the issue with the cabinet on the N1? The N1 cabinetry sucks. It's basically big (deep). I guess they made it big to keep people buy the N2. Huh?? The cabinet sucks because it's big? It has to be as big and deep as it is to support the full size grand piano action and speaker system. I'm not following your logic here. The N1 is deeper then the N2: N1 is 618mm, N2 is 531mm while typical Clavinova is 513mm. I can see no reason for the N1 being deeper then N2. If you have to fit in a flat, every couple of milimeters make a difference. I didn't know about the cabinet differences, and I agree, when living in small apartments/flats, every inch matters...I know since my wife and I live in a relatively small apartment. Although, the cabinet itself is a very nice looking cabinet if you ask me. I like the whole coffin look!
Last edited by ZacharyForbes; 07/13/11 10:18 AM.
Studiologic Numa X Piano GT with Native Instruments Noire
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Hi Zachary, congrats on getting the AG ! I think that's a smart move until you can get a grand. Like I think I mentioned before, I wasn't able to afford my first grand piano till I was 32 in '85. These things have gone up so much, I paid for a new C7 what you'll probably pay for that AG.. I would have preferred practicing on the AG to what I used to put 4-5 hours a day on six days a week, for 6 years, before I was able to swing the C7 http://www.kohlerandcampbell.com/km247.html
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Hi Zachary, congrats on getting the AG ! I think that's a smart move until you can get a grand. Like I think I mentioned before, I wasn't able to afford my first grand piano till I was 32 in '85. These things have gone up so much, I paid for a new C7 what you'll probably pay for that AG.. I would have preferred practicing on the AG to what I used to put 4-5 hours a day on six days a week, for 6 years, before I was able to swing the C7 http://www.kohlerandcampbell.com/km247.htmlHey Dave, Yeah, you know I've gone back and forth with things I thought I'd be getting, things I thought would work, I've played uprights, baby grands, mid sized grands, and for my criteria which includes the following: - Grand Piano Action - Silent Practice Ability - Limited Space Constraints ...the AvantGrand N1/N2 are the only pianos that fit the bill. I recently finished up my Associates Degree and had been entirely undecided about what to finish up a 4 year degree in, then possibly Master's Degree from there, and I decided that Piano Performance/Composition would be my direction. I knew immediately I need something for my technique, and the N1 is perfect. Lately I've been putting in 5 hours a day of practice-3 hours of classical 2 hours of jazz. It's amazing how quickly things start happening when you're spending just that much time of concentrated practice. The N1 is going to be my 'piano' for several years to get me through school and then some. Yet another perk of the AvantGrand is that if i get tired of the internal sounds, I can hook it right up to my laptop or Nord Piano/Electro and run other sounds more to my liking. The N1 is a win win for me. Btw Dave, the C7 is probably overall, my favorite piano I've played on, perhaps very closely followed by the RX-7 Blak. I absolutely love the sound of the C7.
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I wonder if the CS9 will be made available to the US market. I traded in CP179 when I moved up to a Lowery Sterling (also made by Kawai) but I would really like to get an acousitc like piano such as the CS9 and not the CA93 due to the finish of course. The CP179 had great sound and key action but the rythmns were for the most part not what I needed. I really liked playing a K3 but just don't want the tuning bother, and the lack of being able to play silently at times is also a big issue.
Kawai CA93, Lowrey Marquis
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Rich, I do not believe Kawai America has any plans to introduce the CS9 into the North American market, despite the CS6 proving popular with consumers.
However, this may change if enough people register their interest by contacting the company directly.
Kind regards,
James
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Thanks James for the insight. I deal with one of the largest Kawai / Lowrey dealers in the states, Lacefield Music. I will make sure they bring this up at the NAMM. This will be a hot topic for Kawai reps if I'm right in my observations of how long the CS6 stays on the sales floor. Most often they have a very short stay, more like a short rest from the delivery truck to a customers home.
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James, do you know if the CS6 has that panel cover that hides the computer-y parts on next to the keyboard?
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BrokenChord, no, I'm afraid not. As explained in this brochure, the fold-down control panel cover is a CS9-only feature:
Concealed Control Panel
The control panel for each Classic Series instrument is discreetly embedded within the piano’s left cheek block, with the flagship CS9 model also featuring a folding cover. This helps to preserve the instruments’ acoustic piano-like appearance, and allows performers to enjoy the simple pleasure of playing music – without the distraction of flashing lights and rows of buttons.
Kind regards, James x
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Thanks, I did not notice that on the Kawai website, doh! I am still considering the CS6, anyway. I want that RM3 Action! Thanks for answering
Last edited by BrokenChord; 01/02/12 02:24 AM.
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The N1 is deeper then the N2:
N1 is 618mm, N2 is 531mm
while typical Clavinova is 513mm.
I can see no reason for the N1 being deeper then N2.
If you have to fit in a flat, every couple of milimeters make a difference.
A speaker system depends on the speakers, the amplifiers, the crossovers, AND THE CABINET. The internal volume and shape of the cabinet affect response and must be designed in tandem with the layout of the speakers and orientation to the listener. The N2 cabinet is taller (a portion goes all the way to the floor), and has a completely different set of speakers and amplifiers, which have different requirements. The total air volume inside is larger than the N2 because of the cavities extending downwards. The N1 cabinet is deeper to add a little extra volume inside the cabinet, without making it too much taller - and without complicating the design/structure.
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