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Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: casinitaly] #1696591
06/16/11 06:01 PM
06/16/11 06:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,883
Sheffield UK
wayne33yrs Offline
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wayne33yrs  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,883
Sheffield UK
Originally Posted by casinitaly
Originally Posted by wayne32yrs
Originally Posted by Andy Platt
Yes, my choice of words wasn't great wink

But it does allow me to add one more forum: "Red Piano Player Forum".



I saw this on Rozina's yt chanel(another pwf member)

UndyingAnguish (3 weeks ago)

Beautiful playing! I started playing the piano at 24 too and I love it! It's my true passion. Keep in touch.
-Clay

http://www.youtube.com/user/UndyingAnguish


wonder if I found Cayts?

It doesn't add up...started at 24, has said he is 60, but in his profile it says 1970, which would make him 41.......hmmmmmmmmmm weird.



accordong to his yt channel, he's 26yrs, started piano @ 24yrs, uploaded this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RciWa8eG4z0 2yr ago

Think I'm gonna try the Clayt piano method, after practicing the first bar 100 times, you can start to "play with" time! lol

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Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: ShiroKuro] #1696592
06/16/11 06:02 PM
06/16/11 06:02 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,095
Granada (Spain)
Recaredo Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Recaredo  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,095
Granada (Spain)
I like the actual forum's name, maybe because I'm an adult and I am begining to learn to play piano. It just describes my situation.


However I understand those who prefer other term, because they have already got a large experience playing piano. If I had been playing for a long time, I would not like to be called "beginner". It's clear.

Regards.

Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: BenPiano] #1696607
06/16/11 06:39 PM
06/16/11 06:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 403
Montreal Canada
J
John_In_Montreal Offline
Full Member
John_In_Montreal  Offline
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J

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 403
Montreal Canada
Originally Posted by BenPiano
Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
What's an unfriendly piano?


[Linked Image]


Talk about unfriendly pianos - wouldn't want to be bit by one of those smile It could also represent a piano teacher having a bad day. "WHAT ? You didn't PRACTICE your assignment? " GRRRRrrrRRrrrrrr cursing

Great sense of humour, Benpiano

J

Last edited by John_In_Montreal; 06/16/11 06:40 PM.

"My piano is therapy for me" - Rick Wright.
Instrument: Rebuilt Kurzweil K2500XS and a bunch of great vintage virtual keyboards. New Kurzweil PC3X.
Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: ShiroKuro] #1696617
06/16/11 06:48 PM
06/16/11 06:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 550
Dystopia (but not Dystonia!)
C
chercherchopin Offline
500 Post Club Member
chercherchopin  Offline
500 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 550
Dystopia (but not Dystonia!)
That piano might be incentive to keep the cats from wanting to climb inside and strolling (or lounging) around on the strings. smile


Offensive tag line deleted by moderators.
Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: mr_super-hunky] #1696625
06/16/11 07:08 PM
06/16/11 07:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 924
North Carolina
O
Opus45 Offline
500 Post Club Member
Opus45  Offline
500 Post Club Member
O

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 924
North Carolina
Quote
..I must agree with Charleslang on this one. It doesn't really matter where we started but rather where we are now and how we have progressed..

I believe Shiro is referring to the special and specific challenges most all adults face after starting to learn to play the piano as an adult without appreciable piano exposure as a child. It's quite similar to other language acquisition efforts by adults with no appreciable exposure to the foreign language as a child. These challenges (and frankly, limitations) are often quickly jumped upon by people here, who are reluctant to consider or talk about such seemingly negative concepts while engaged in their own personal monumental efforts to learn to play the piano.

I dissagree with Charleslang. It DOES make a difference where we started. That is neither bad nor good. It just is. Adults with appreciable piano training as children, and who return to piano playing after years of not playing are not adult beginners (as being defined in this thread), and have many advantages over the adult with no appreciable chilhood exposure.

When I listen to the online recitals in the Adult Beginner Forum I can usually always tell when I'm listening to someone who's had lots of piano lessons as a child.

Shiro, you are on the right track. There should be a better term for piano students like you and so many others who have accomplished so much in learning to play the piano without the benefits of having learned as a child. Adult beginner doesn't quite capture the whole concept.


Jeff
[Linked Image]
Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: Opus45] #1696637
06/16/11 07:31 PM
06/16/11 07:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,221
C
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member
charleslang  Offline
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C

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,221
Originally Posted by Opus45


I dissagree with Charleslang. It DOES make a difference where we started. That is neither bad nor good. It just is. Adults with appreciable piano training as children, and who return to piano playing after years of not playing are not adult beginners (as being defined in this thread), and have many advantages over the adult with no appreciable chilhood exposure.

When I listen to the online recitals in the Adult Beginner Forum I can usually always tell when I'm listening to someone who's had lots of piano lessons as a child.


If you mean that it makes a difference in terms of presenting special challenges, I agree with you and, in fact, I've argued for that point elsewhere on these forums.

But it looks like in the above passage you don't mean that. It looks like you're claiming that there is a ceiling beyond which adult beginners cannot climb. This may be true in some cases, but in other cases it is just false.

When an adult reaches a truly intermediate or even advanced level, they are just intermediate or advanced pianists, period. That was my point in my first post. If they don't, they are still adult beginners (if they don't work hard enough or don't have a good teacher, they may stay adult beginners for 20 years or their whole life).

The idea that there is a lingering 'accent' (using your language metaphor) for those who begin as adults is false, and to claim this as you do is not helpful.

There seem to be two common mistaken attitudes towards adult beginners: on the one idealist extreme, they are supposed to have no special challenges, while on the other, they are ultimately only ever going to get so far and they'll never really be good.

You appear to have pigeonholed me into the former slot -- which is inaccurate, as I've explained -- but you yourself fall into the second slot. The truth is somewhere in between.

Originally Posted by Opus45

Shiro, you are on the right track. There should be a better term for piano students like you and so many others who have accomplished so much in learning to play the piano without the benefits of having learned as a child. Adult beginner doesn't quite capture the whole concept.


I disagree. As I said above, either you are a beginner or intermediate or advanced. The term 'adult beginner' does justice to the special challenges faced at the beginning. If an adult is not a true intermediate pianist after ten years, he or she needs to work harder or get another teacher. But if he or she is an intermediate player, then there isn't a need to accompany that information with the information that they began as adults. They are intermediate pianists, period.


charlessamuellang.com
Semi-pro pianist and piano technician
Tuesdays 5-8:30 at Vince's West Sacramento, California
Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: ShiroKuro] #1696644
06/16/11 07:56 PM
06/16/11 07:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,542
Southeast US
ShiroKuro Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
ShiroKuro  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,542
Southeast US
I'm really glad that my silly idea has sparked some serious debate. (I mean that sincerely). In the ... 7 years (wow) I've been on this forum, this subject has come up a lot, and it's because it's such a complex issue/question that it keeps coming up. Unfortunately, the only thing about me that's working today is my grammaticality distortion field (having just gotten over jet lag and the first week of summer school) so I'm not to contributing anything coherent right now. But I will soon, because although this thread was inspired by silliness, it's based on some real questions.

P.S. Opus45, long time no see smile


Started piano June 1999.
Proud owner of a Yamaha C2

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: ShiroKuro] #1696700
06/16/11 10:35 PM
06/16/11 10:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,368
mr_super-hunky Offline
4000 Post Club Member
mr_super-hunky  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,368
I think shiro has been hitting the sauce. Sake to be exact!

Benpiano, awesome pic. That piano will eat you alive if you mess with it. Just imagine what the tuner must think when crawlin' into that beast. I'd be nice to it.

Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: ShiroKuro] #1696761
06/17/11 01:03 AM
06/17/11 01:03 AM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,339
Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Rostosky  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,339
Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
a D ult begINNERS : D+INNERS = Dinners. mmmmm Dinners, one of the only things that may stop practice, a good dinner?




Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project
Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: ShiroKuro] #1696765
06/17/11 01:10 AM
06/17/11 01:10 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,445
Sweden
TheodorN Offline
2000 Post Club Member
TheodorN  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,445
Sweden
How about Adult begoners? cool


My YouTube channel

Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX. Prod. Voices: Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand Compact, Est. Grand, Studio Grand LE. NI Giant. Galaxy II Blüthner Baby Grand. AcousticSamples C7. AK Studio Grand. Sampletekk Black. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: ShiroKuro] #1696767
06/17/11 01:11 AM
06/17/11 01:11 AM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,339
Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Rostosky  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,339
Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
or just Adultairers?




Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project
Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: ShiroKuro] #1696775
06/17/11 01:27 AM
06/17/11 01:27 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,445
Sweden
TheodorN Offline
2000 Post Club Member
TheodorN  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,445
Sweden
No, ABF users don't do such things. cool


My YouTube channel

Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX. Prod. Voices: Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand Compact, Est. Grand, Studio Grand LE. NI Giant. Galaxy II Blüthner Baby Grand. AcousticSamples C7. AK Studio Grand. Sampletekk Black. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: ShiroKuro] #1696787
06/17/11 01:58 AM
06/17/11 01:58 AM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,339
Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Rostosky  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,339
Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Did you spot the pun of "air" ers?
Adult air ers. we are adults and play airs,

And we are adults that "air" our opinions (possibly more often than playing airs)

oh come on thats probably unbeatable at this time in the morning!

I am an Adultairer and not ashamed.

Actually I am very proud of that: Adultairers.

Last edited by Rostosky; 06/17/11 02:11 AM.



Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project
Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: BenPiano] #1696891
06/17/11 08:50 AM
06/17/11 08:50 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,266
Ohio, US
Little_Blue_Engine Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Little_Blue_Engine  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,266
Ohio, US
Originally Posted by BenPiano
Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
What's an unfriendly piano?


[Linked Image]
Can anyone here play "Crocodile Rock"? grin


I'll figure it out eventually.
Until then you may want to keep a safe distance.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: ShiroKuro] #1696927
06/17/11 09:44 AM
06/17/11 09:44 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 775
Canada
J
joyoussong Offline
500 Post Club Member
joyoussong  Offline
500 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 775
Canada
(Another perspective on "beginner" is the idea of "beginner's mind":
Shoshin (初心) is a concept in Zen Buddhism meaning "beginner's mind". It refers to having an attitude of openness, eagerness, and lack of preconceptions when studying a subject, even when studying at an advanced level, just as a beginner in that subject would." <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin>
It hardly ever happens anymore when I'm making pottery; I've been doing it too long. I'm glad it still does with piano.


Carol
(Started playing July 2008)

[Linked Image]
Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: charleslang] #1696931
06/17/11 09:48 AM
06/17/11 09:48 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 924
North Carolina
O
Opus45 Offline
500 Post Club Member
Opus45  Offline
500 Post Club Member
O

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 924
North Carolina
Originally Posted by charleslang
Originally Posted by Opus45

I dissagree with Charleslang. It DOES make a difference where we started. That is neither bad nor good. It just is. Adults with appreciable piano training as children, and who return to piano playing after years of not playing are not adult beginners (as being defined in this thread), and have many advantages over the adult with no appreciable chilhood exposure.

When I listen to the online recitals in the Adult Beginner Forum I can usually always tell when I'm listening to someone who's had lots of piano lessons as a child.


... It looks like you're claiming that there is a ceiling beyond which adult beginners cannot climb. This may be true in some cases, but in other cases it is just false.

When an adult reaches a truly intermediate or even advanced level, they are just intermediate or advanced pianists, period. That was my point in my first post. The idea that there is a lingering 'accent' (using your language metaphor) for those who begin as adults is false, and to claim this as you do is not helpful.


You appear to have pigeonholed me into the former slot -- which is inaccurate, as I've explained -- but you yourself fall into the second slot. The truth is somewhere in between.

..either you are a beginner or intermediate or advanced. The term 'adult beginner' does justice to the special challenges faced at the beginning. If an adult is not a true intermediate pianist after ten years, he or she needs to work harder or get another teacher. But if he or she is an intermediate player, then there isn't a need to accompany that information with the information that they began as adults. They are intermediate pianists, period.


Not sure what you're talking about when you mention your first post. This is the only thread i've read here in quite a long time. In fact, I thought S-H was referring to a famous pianist or someone who wrote a book for adult beginners when he was referring to charleslang, otherwise i probably wouldn't have used your name in my quote since i'm usually such a naseatingly polite person.

Bottom line. I think I'm right and you're wrong. grin


Jeff
[Linked Image]
Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: chercherchopin] #1696940
06/17/11 09:59 AM
06/17/11 09:59 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,234
CebuKid Offline
1000 Post Club Member
CebuKid  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,234
Uh oh...another attempt at a shakeup?

Let's see.. we've had name change shakeups, mixing up the ABF recitals, spinning off the ABF with an intermediate forum, and most recently a competitive recital.

We ain't budging this time, although if you think about it, at least 90% of us here are re-beganers (intermediates). sleep


YouTube Channel
Scott Joplin Repertoire


Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
- Berthold Auerbach


[Linked Image]
Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: ShiroKuro] #1697003
06/17/11 12:01 PM
06/17/11 12:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,464
Chapel Hill, NC
Stanza Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Stanza  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,464
Chapel Hill, NC
Well, I for one am a re-tread. I did take lessons for many years as a child....but never learned to play well (might have had something to do with not practicing). According to my current teacher, the experience nevertheless was beneficial, putting me way ahead of piano-naive adult students.

However, my status is not to be confused with those who were actually pretty good when they were young, and then quit! Maybe in some ways I am better off, since I don't have the frustration of: "I used to be able to play all this advanced stuff really well..."


Estonia L190 #7004
Casio PX 310
Yamaha NP 30
Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: CebuKid] #1697048
06/17/11 01:19 PM
06/17/11 01:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,061
Italy
casinitaly Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014
casinitaly  Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014

7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 7,061
Italy
Originally Posted by CebuKid


although if you think about it, at least 90% of us here are re-beganers (intermediates).


Really?? I honestly wouldn't think it is that high.
There are a lot of people who started piano in their 40s and 50s.....

I'd be really curious to do a poll(which doesn't seem to be an option on this forum)...
1. previous musical experience before playing piano ? What?
2. Started as adult - at what age ?
3. Had lessons as a child ? For how many years ?




[Linked Image]



Re: My new term for adult beginners! [Re: Rostosky] #1697072
06/17/11 02:07 PM
06/17/11 02:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 342
Monroe, NC USA
E
Emissary52 Offline
Full Member
Emissary52  Offline
Full Member
E

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 342
Monroe, NC USA
Originally Posted by Rostosky
Did you spot the pun of "air" ers?
Adult air ers. we are adults and play airs,

And we are adults that "air" our opinions (possibly more often than playing airs)

oh come on thats probably unbeatable at this time in the morning!

I am an Adultairer and not ashamed.

Actually I am very proud of that: Adultairers.


Well, after just playing a sonatina which did have a few mistakes, I'm considering that at 58, I'm an "Adult-Error"!
grin


I'm Craig, I'm retired, It's Saturday every day!
Alfred's Masterwork Classics Vol 3 and Vol 4
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