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Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
Bernhard Stopper #1652886 04/02/11 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
As i said, he appreciated formerly a temperament with a stretch about twice as strong as in my temperament, what in consequence would imply that his perception is not very reliable, an option i don´t believe he is really interested in.

I think you refer to Cordier tuning, with pure 5ths instead of pure 12ths. If one would compare pure 12ths tuning to a Botox treatment, one might compare pure 5ths tuning to a surgical facelift.

However it can not be denied that a botox treatment can make a face look nicer, so Pat's comment could be construed as a compliment. A way to improve the old ET face smile

Kees





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Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
rysowers #1652944 04/02/11 05:08 AM
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Unfortunately, I can't go to this convention. I would love to attend Stopper's class and learn the Onlypure tuning. And I can not buy the software neither.

When I saw that Her Stopper had posted a video I thought it was about how to tune the Onlypure system...

Anyway, what I hear is the most pure unisons I've heard so far in a video. And the music sounds really good.

I have troubles to evaluate a tuning directly from a piece of music been played on a piano. I prefer to analyse different intervals to hear their quality and progression of beat rates.

But, from the music in the video, I can hear some thirds at about 2:00 which sound good.

I have no objection to what I hear in this video and I am rather pleased by the sound of the piano. So IMHO it is a top quality tuning.

I can not hear the wideness in the mid range refered by Patrick. For me a wide mid range means to have too busy 8ves, M10ths and M17ths, which I don't hear in the video.



Last edited by Gadzar; 04/02/11 05:33 AM.
Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
Gadzar #1655203 04/05/11 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Gadzar

I have troubles to evaluate a tuning directly from a piece of music been played on a piano. I prefer to analyse different intervals to hear their quality and progression of beat rates.

Yes, Rafael, I think we all have that problem. Especially analyzing tunings abstractly, void of the music played. Then again, why would you?
That said, I'm well aware that a tuning can be presented in a favorable way by playing music that brings forth its forte.

Originally Posted by Gadzar

I have no objection to what I hear in this video and I am rather pleased by the sound of the piano. So IMHO it is a top quality tuning.

I can not hear the wideness in the mid range refered by Patrick. For me a wide mid range means to have too busy 8ves, M10ths and M17ths, which I don't hear in the video.

That's good for Bernhard's tuning. One more vote in favor of it, and I'm all for democracy. I see different opinions as a healthy thing, and dialogue per se as the only way to get further.

What I don't understand is the need for inquisition. We should be way past that in any kind of modern community - virtual or IRL.

Anyways, I'm still waiting for Bernhard to pinpoint down where I spoke favorably of a cordier stretch in the midrange. I'd really like to know... and *EDITOR'S REMARKS* - this not in a sarcastic, offensive, evil, strange w... hold on. It might be a strange way. But I do not believe in insinuations, I like plain text.

@Bernhard: Where did I write what?

Last edited by pppat; 04/05/11 05:22 PM.

Patrick Wingren, RPT
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Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

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Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
pppat #1655225 04/05/11 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by pppat


Anyways, I'm still waiting for Bernhard to pinpoint down where I spoke favorably of a cordier stretch in the midrange. I'd really like to know... and *EDITOR'S REMARKS* - this not in a sarcastic, offensive, evil, strange w... hold on. It might be a strange way. But I do not believe in insinuations, I like plain text.

@Bernhard: Where did I write what?

Here.

Kees

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
rysowers #1655285 04/05/11 07:09 PM
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smile thanks, Kees. I'll quote myself:

Originally Posted by pppat
Originally Posted by Kamin
Originally Posted by Kamin
I'd say that beats are not particularely nonharmonic, (musically speaking, not theoretically) and that we may play with them, not fight them !

exemple :

http://www.ambassade-du-piano.eu/videos,concert-akihiro-sakiya-part-3-26759.html



ABove : based on a "pure 5th" sequence , with double octaves beating as heck !

is it noticed ?


No dissonance that bothered me either. At least this tuning seems to work very great in a lively acoustic place, for that kind of sparkling piano writing!

What really interested me though, is that I found this kind of tuning more coherent than a pure 12th tuning! Very interesting. Is it the obvious sparkling quality of the triads (with their pure 5ths) that causes this?

Any comments are welcome. I have to try this wild stretch myself, too smile It is a cordier-based tuning, right?


This was in July last year. I think I made it pretty clear that I found that tuning more together than pure 12ths. I was also puzzled as to why, as you can see in my reply.

Maybe pure 12ths, to me, are just hopelessly in the middle? I don't really know. I only hear what I hear, and for any of my listen-throughs there are many others that hear differently.

If there is anything to be read from experiences like these, I'd vote for something nourishing, not for something you'd like to take care of using the lawn mover.


Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistik
Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

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Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
pppat #1655502 04/06/11 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by pppat

Maybe pure 12ths, to me, are just hopelessly in the middle? I don't really know.


I am still guesssing what may cause your concerns about this aspect in my tuning. (Remember that your concerns included much more aspects at the beginning. For example your questioning of Wolfgang Dauner´s hearing (he was appreciating my tuning) because of his age, as you found the treble of my tunings to be stretched uncomfortably high at that time. Recently you were appreciating pure duodecimes yourself for the treble stretch and speak about your melodic ear (aged pretty fast?)). Remember your complaints about missing coherence in my tunings? Recently you also expressed your preference for duodecimes in the bass (with the higher involved bass partials, like 6/2 or 9/3) but for the midrange you are still fighting against them? How does this go together with the principle of coherence? I tend to believe that it is not your hearing that causes your offense, but rather your knowledge that it is something different, so it must be unnatural. I remember that you avoid talking about having used EBVTIII, when you tune for other musicians, to avoid that sort of offense.

Visit my class, it may help you to understand my tuning model as something pretty natural. I see a good chance that your ears may also follow then.

Last edited by Bernhard Stopper; 04/06/11 05:33 AM.
Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
Bernhard Stopper #1655503 04/06/11 02:34 AM
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Update in progress...

Last edited by Bernhard Stopper; 04/06/11 09:36 AM.
Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
Bernhard Stopper #1655594 04/06/11 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper

I am still guesssing what may cause your concerns about this aspect in my tuning. (Remember that your concerns included much more aspects at the beginning. For example your questioning of Wolfgang Dauner´s hearing (he was appreciating my tuning) because of his age, as you found the treble of my tunings to be stretched uncomfortably high at that time. Recently you were appreciating pure duodecimes yourself for the treble stretch and speak about your melodic ear (aged pretty fast?)). Remember your complaints about missing coherence in my tunings? Recently you also expressed your preference for duodecimes in the bass (with the higher involved bass partials, like 6/2 or 9/3) but for the midrange you are still fighting against them? How does this go together with the principle of coherence? I tend to believe that it is not your hearing that causes your offense, but rather your knowledge that it is something different, so it must be unnatural. I remember that you avoid talking about having used EBVTIII, when you tune for other musicians, to avoid that sort of offense.

Visit my class, it may help you to understand my tuning model as something pretty natural. I see a good chance that your ears may also follow then.


Now, hold on - I don't think I questioned Dauner's hearing, and if I did so I'm quite sure it was in a humorous manner. I simply stated that the older you get, the higher you'd like the upper part of the piano. I have encountered this several times in my musical everyday life, everything from singers pitching way above, to me myself stretching more with the earplugs inserted (thus kind of simulating older ears).

The pure duodecimes in the treble worked frighteningly well on the Yamaha U3 with EBVT III. I so hoped that I'd found something really good, and I was going to write you that night because the sound of the piano was truly awesome. Then I thought I'd hold on until I got a 2nd opinion, and when I tried the same thing on the Steinway B next night it didn't work at all :-/

And yes, I still tune the bass with a mix of 3:1 6:2 and 9:3, and I really like that sound. I see no contradiction between liking that sound and preferring a tighter midrange.

I think I expressed something about I liked the way it projected into the room in my OP comments on Isaac's sound clip. But no, I wouldn't like playing chords in the midrange of a cordier-type tuning.

Lastly, these are my aural impressions only. I do like your symmetric approach to piano tuning and I think your concept is personal and appealing to a lot of tuners and musicians. I'm sorry that I don't like this sound myself, but I can't help it. For any of my remarks you have a multitude of others endorsing it, so you must be doing good smile

Last edited by pppat; 04/06/11 08:49 AM.

Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
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Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

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Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
pppat #1655608 04/06/11 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by pppat


I simply stated that the older you get, the higher you'd like the upper part of the piano.

You stated this in return to my reference of Dauner´s appreciation of my tuning and i can see no humour in this statement in this context. It was a clear ramp against my tuning implying that it may be appreciated by musicians with aged hearing.

Originally Posted by pppat

The pure duodecimes in the treble worked frighteningly well on the Yamaha U3 with EBVT III. I so hoped that I'd found something really good, and I was going to write you that night because the sound of the piano was truly awesome. Then I thought I'd hold on until I got a 2nd opinion, and when I tried the same thing on the Steinway B next night it didn't work at all :-/

I never promised that pure duodecimes work well on any piano with unequal temperaments. What i am stating is, that it works well on any piano with an equal temperament based on aurally pure duodecimes, as the beat masking effect is at the maximum then, along with improved melodic justness.

Originally Posted by pppat

And yes, I still tune the bass with a mix of 3:1 6:2 and 9:3, and I really like that sound. I see no contradiction between liking that sound and preferring a tighter midrange.

To me, it is a clear contradiciton of the coherence principle, to use pure duodecimes in the treble and bass, but not in the midrange. And by the way, today you posted in the EBVTIII thread, that you are using a 6:3 octave type in the midrange. This can come pretty close with a pure duodecime width on an instrument with a typical inharmonicity profile. To me, your hearing is different from what you are doing, because you want your hearing to be so. I believe your mind doesn´t want to accept something that is different from what you learned and have been accustomed to (for example to keyboard tunings in plain standard ET) so far in your life.

PS: I have to leave discussions now because of lack of time.


Last edited by Bernhard Stopper; 04/06/11 09:40 AM.
Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
Bernhard Stopper #1655631 04/06/11 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper

To me, it is a clear contradiciton of the coherence principle, to use duodecimes in the treble and bass, but not in the midrange.

Yes, I think you've made very clear that you want pure 12ths all over the piano. There are other ways of tuning, though.


Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper

And by the way, today you posted in the EBVTIII thread, that you are using a 6:3 octave type in the midrange. This can come pretty close with a pure duodecime width on an instrument with a typical inharmonicity profile. To me, your hearing is different from what you are doing, because you want your hearing to be so. I believe your mind doesn´t want to accept something that is different from what you learned and have been accustomed to (for example to keyboard tunings in plain standard ET) so far in your life.


Now, this is not the first time I get misquoted, or then you simply can not comprehend. This happens time after time, and I'm getting a little tired of it.

This is what I wrote in the EBVT III/TuneLab thread:

Originally Posted by pppat

I have an idea that might be worth a try before going split scale. From my aural tuning experience, the "octave size mean" in this part of the piano (across the tenor break) is 6:3. They usually work on small instruments as well as on large ones (although I sometimes go beyond 6:3's on really nice full-scaled grands)


Did I write that I tune the whole midrange in 6:3? Of course not. You have to stop misquoting me just to prove your point.





Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
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Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

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Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
pppat #1655636 04/06/11 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by pppat

There are other ways of tuning, though.

I never stated the opposite. Throwing in arbitrary true statements does not invalidate my statement about the coherence violation. I never stated that a tuning must be coherent, but coherence was one of your own preferences when argumenting against my tunings.

Originally Posted by pppat


Did I write that I tune the whole midrange in 6:3? Of course not. You have to stop misquoting me just to prove your point.


Did i write which part of the midrange i was mentioning? Sorry i see no misquote. What is tiring to me, is that you often forget what you have said previously and what is often in a contradiction of what you are saying later. (see your statement about Cordier tuning for example).

Last edited by Bernhard Stopper; 04/06/11 10:07 AM.
Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
Bernhard Stopper #1655744 04/06/11 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
I never stated that a tuning must be coherent, but coherence was one of your own preferences when argumenting against my tunings.


This might be a language issue. When I speak about together, coherent or whatever, I basically mean that I do not particularly like when the piano sounds like it is tuned to several pitches at once.

That is my impression of your pure 12ths tuning, and I find it even more prominent in the video clip for the german seminar. I can't help that my ears don't like it. Like I said before, there are many others that do like it. This should be enough confirmation that your tuning is good.

Anyways, this discussion is not exactly going anywhere, we are just wasting each others energy. I remember me stating that EBVT-dislikers shouldn't feel that they have to repeat their feelings about the temperament into boredom and back. I realize that I'm not exactly better myself smile So, let's just drop this and get on with other more productive stuff.

Last edited by pppat; 04/06/11 01:49 PM.

Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
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Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

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Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
Bernhard Stopper #1655783 04/06/11 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Bernhard Stopper
The video trailer for my class (Tuning the Stopper OnlyPure Temperament Aurally) had a little flaw in one of the text windows, here is the new version:



Bernhard Stopper


I am also offering the OnlyPure class in June in germany, for those thinking about attending my class at the PTG convention, the german video trailer may be of some interest too, as it contains another tuning record (Beethoven), here is the video:



Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
rysowers #1659664 04/13/11 06:05 PM
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Hey Ryan,
You may want to ask Darrell Fandrich. I think he's already planning on going. A class on action geometry
from him alone would make me go to KC. And he's driving. I was at his shop the other day and his actions are out of this world nice!!

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
Chris A.C. #1660397 04/15/11 12:25 AM
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Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
rysowers #1660411 04/15/11 01:32 AM
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Chris,

It's funny you mention it. Here is his offering with John Rhodes:

Taming Inertia: Creating a Touch to Die For
Darrell Fandrich, RPT, Seattle, WA Chapter and John Rhodes, RPT, Portland, OR Chapter
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Excessive inertia is the hugely critical gremlin responsible for the heavy tendon-tearing touch that plagues players of the majority of new pianos and rebuilds. This class gives you practical tools to accurately quantify, predict and correct action inertia – resulting in a touch to die for…every time.


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
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Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
rysowers #1663193 04/19/11 08:00 PM
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Last May I had Darryl Fandrich in my backyard along with 35 other members when I hosted a BBQ for the PTG Canada (now CAPT). I had an opportunity to chat with him for a while; nice fellow… he will talk all day long about pianos if you like……..

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
Silverwood Pianos #1663374 04/20/11 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos

; nice fellow…he will talk all day long about pianos if you like……..


Actually, Darrell will happily talk all through the night too!

Last edited by rysowers; 04/20/11 01:33 AM.

Ryan Sowers,
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Olympia, WA
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Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
rysowers #1695587 06/14/11 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rysowers
Chris,

It's funny you mention it. Here is his offering with John Rhodes:

Taming Inertia: Creating a Touch to Die For
Darrell Fandrich, RPT, Seattle, WA Chapter and John Rhodes, RPT, Portland, OR Chapter
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Excessive inertia is the hugely critical gremlin responsible for the heavy tendon-tearing touch that plagues players of the majority of new pianos and rebuilds. This class gives you practical tools to accurately quantify, predict and correct action inertia – resulting in a touch to die for…every time.


Unfortunately, we received an email from the PTG on June 3rd that this class has been cancelled. The PTG website has all of the updates of who's teaching what & which classes are still available.


Nancy Fanzlaw
Seamstress for the Band

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"The piano was God's gift to music." Lou Mason

Re: New PTG Convention Classes for 2011
rysowers #1695762 06/14/11 10:59 PM
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Thanks for bringing this up, M.O.P. The good news is that next year the conference will be in Bellevue, Washington, which is just an hour and half away from the Fandrich's home. They felt really bad about not being able to teach this year, but are very excited to present an even better program next year!


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
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