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*rather distressing to read

Dear Ori,

1) I don't back pedal. As far as the term "balanced action", I said what I meant. David Andersen, a technician who I truly admire, had no problem understanding me (thank you for joining the discussion, David). I don't know how to be plainer.

2) When I stated "no matter what material is used to make them" I was comparing standard high quality wooden parts and composite parts, but you already know that. You are too bright to convince me otherwise. I did not state or insinuate steel or gold as options - you did, and yes, I find the thought ridiculous.

I am really not sure what you are trying to accomplish here Ori. I wish you the best of luck.

scwammerl,

What Kawai says is absolutely true. The BLAK and the WNG design bring consistency and stiffness to the action, both of which have benefits. However it is leaving a big part of the equation off the table.

I believe Archimedes said, "Give me the right lever and I can move the world."... or something like that.

The fact is that action design - and more importantly, the understanding of action design, has everything to do with the responsiveness of a piano. When hammer weight, knuckle and capstan placement, and the wippen are all chosen carefully and correctly, the stage is set for rocking responsiveness - no matter what material is used to make them. It is all about the math. smile

If this is done correctly, a manufacturer should never be in a position where they must use a tremendous amount of weighting in the keys just to offset the weight "on the stack".

It is unfortunate that some manufacturers and rebuilders who understand this concept do not use it... or maybe they really do not understand it.

My 2 cents,

I feel that as dealers we have to be accurate in our posts.

I'm sorry at this point for investing the time in this thread at all.

The result was that I post much less ...

In the past, I used to post here a lot of information ....

Others might say that a "response word limit" should be imposed

succinct responses would be sufficient

In piano design, one thing affects another.

It should as it has a very good action design and parts.
However, it is not likely to allow you the same degree of control that a new 190 will.

The espresso machine is finally working again at Allegro.

Has the OP received enough information to decide to keep his Estonia, or should he be sending his action to someone who can install unobtanium shanks on his hammers, and give those teflon bushings lying around every Steinway techs shop someplace new to reside.

I'm with Norbert on this one. Get a good tech to regulate the Estonia before deciding on an upgrade. It would seem to be a no-brainer financially. However, if what the OP really wants is a new instrument, then that is the direction he should go.

TC

So what's in this thread for layman readers/potential piano buyers? For me at least a lot!

And no I do not find it distressing to read as I assume that whenever piano professionals participate in a technical debate they are supposed to be knowledgable enough to defend themselves when required.

And no I do not find this posts to be a discussion about what "is" is. They pass beyond the commonplaces we often have to read here: 'have a good technician regulated the action' - 'voicing can do miracles' - 'choose the piano that simply pleases you most' - 'read the Piano Buyer' - or worst 'that is how an acoustic piano is, it's afterall made of wood/felt/iron ..you have to live with it'.
The above suggestions may in many cases satisfy readers/consumers but I do not think this can be the reason why many continue visiting PWF?

This is why I could not agree with suggestions like: or . If this would become the general practice in future threads here I would suggest interested readers to at least save this thread with your favourites, even better take a hard copy of it.

And yes it requires some effort from the reader to follow the thread post by post, at least once a day as long as it lasts. And yes many people are no longer used to do this because many limit themselves to reading headlines in newspapers instead of in depth articles and prefer talk shows on television to in depth debates. This has unfortunately become so much part of our culture now that many find studying the piano too much of an effort with too little short term satisfaction in it!

So what is in this thread for me?

* That simple answers for issues with acoustic pianos do not exist:
Those interested in knowing why a recent (from 2010 onwards) Estonia 190 sounds and feels distinctively different from pevious builts may want to re-read post #1690912. Something that kept puzzling me from my first encounter with such an Estonia 190 is now clear to me.

* That understanding the 'why' behind things as a consumer is important as not to be fooled by platitudes and that this can save you from making wrong costly decisions. E.g. I was once suggested by a Dutch independant (highly recommended) piano technician when he inspected my 168 and after having ventilated the 'platitude' "it's a rather short piano with rather short keys in combination with relatively heavy hammers", that what needed to be done was taking weight out of the hammers and lead out of the keys accordingly and have the action re-weighted/regulated. On itself a sensible suggestion as we learned here and can read on many other places that intertia matters a lot when persuing the best possible responsiveness. However apart from the fact this would have been a quite costly excercise I also learned here (e.g. again form post #1690912) why at the same time the outcome would have been - in terms of the sound effect on the piano - highly unpredictable. Now I am glad my gut feeling told me not to accept that proposition and I now also understand why I took the right decision.

* That now that I have had my 168 regulated and voiced by my excellent and competent dealer technician last week it now performs as never before. However I also know and understand that - that should I still wish somthing more/different the only way would be an upgrade or a different make altogether. (re post #1091574)

Strange enough it was not just the direct answers from Ori to my specific questions that showed me the whole picture (would have been perhaps a bit too succinct). It was in fact because others started participating in the debate after my question and arguments needed to be broadened and digged out that additional value was added.

By now I may have used excessive server space here, so I better stop!

Thank you all who participated.

schwammerl.

disclaimer: I have no connections with Ori or any other dealer participating here as I never met in person any North American dealer member here.

Brent B,

Regarding the Estonia 190:

In piano design, one thing affects another.
The change to the Estonia action responsiveness actually started with some modification to the soundboard design and its fitting to the rim.
This allowed for the use of a somewhat lighter hammer without sacrificing tone (in fact, refining the tone)... which in turn allowed for reduced key mass resulting in a more responsive action.

Also, the company paid careful attention to reducing action friction which further improved the touch.


Regarding Estonia's new model 225:

As befitting a new model, the 225 got a completely new action design.

Just yesterday, after having worked on the action and voicing of a recently arrived model 225 I played the piano for an hour or so.
I feel that the 225 has one of the smoothest and most responsive actions I have ever encountered on any piano, and especially when considering how three dimensional and sustaining is the tone of this piano (which again, has to do with the overall design of pianos but can affect the action/touch greatly).

I really enjoyed playing this piano!

Of course, the action is made by Renner in Germany...but the design, geometry, key length, etc... are different from other Estonia models.

I hope this helps.

Ori

Schwammerl,

Regarding your questions.

1. Yes, the feel of the actions (as perfectly 'balanced as they be' will still be different because of the variables you mentioned (as well as others that might seem less connected).

You use the words responsiveness and contolability...and its hard to determine what you mean to describe by using these words without you being here.

Most often, 'responsiveness' describes the feeling one gets when pressing down on the keys and the quickness it reacts to the pressure of the fingers.

The more mass in both sides of the action...the lesser is the responsiveness.
the less mass in both sides of the action, the greater is the responsiveness.

'Controlability' (or control) may be used to describe the effort it takes to control and overcome the inertia in the key as it bounces back up.
The more within the key, the greater is the inertia and the 'controlability' is diminished.



2. Of course, the voicing (as well as room acoustics) can affect the perceived touch of the player.
An identical mellower piano in the same acoustical environment would have to be played with more power than one that is voiced more openly.

Thus, one may refer to it as 'heavier' although the actual weighting of the two pianos may be identical.

Another angle is that setting the action regulation differently will result in different tones to identical playing.
One may require more or less force to produce the same tone on two identically voiced pianos in the same acoustical environment just because the action is regulated differently.

In all, I'm glad that your 168 feels great now. It should as it has a very good action design and parts.
However, it is not likely to allow you the same degree of control that a new 190 will.

So we called in a "special gun" on Sundays who sat down with the customer, listened carefully to her concerns. After about 4 hours, the job was done and piano sold. Customer very happy.

To me this is what really counts.

In my mind what really matters is going the extra mile pleasing piano owners and getting the job done.

Last week we sold a piano to someone who wanted to get a very special touch on her piano.
For the first time I was a bit at a loss fully understanding the request and how to accomplish this.

So we called in a "special gun" on Sundays who sat down with the customer, listened carefully to her concerns. After about 4 hours, the job was done and piano sold. Customer very happy.

To me this is what really counts.

Norbert