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Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: UnrightTooner] #1688101
05/31/11 08:23 PM
05/31/11 08:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961
Kalamazoo Michigan
R
RPD Offline
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RPD  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961
Kalamazoo Michigan
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner

The increase in tuning speed is causing me a dilemna. Should I charge less because it takes less time, or should I give more service for the same price?


I'm with Jer here...charging less doesn't really serve either party, since you had to work hard to gain in speed and skill (like all of us do)...and it is actually, in a very real way, mis-leading your client as to the ACTUAL worth of your work. It cuts your own reputation and hurts you too.

I normally book an hour for a tuning visit...obviously, this is an estimate, and my fee includes that time...sometimes I "gift" extra work if the situation warrants, but I've also noted that my best customers also value THEIR time and love it when I'm in, at the job, and DONE!...in fact, I've picked up a number of clients because another local tuner takes so long, even though his work is otherwise just fine.

Your surgeon won't discount because he's faster at taking out your gizzard...and you shouldn't either. (no offense intended, if you still actually have your gizzard)

whome

RPD

Last edited by RPD; 05/31/11 08:28 PM.

MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America)
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Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: mstore] #1688113
05/31/11 08:45 PM
05/31/11 08:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,628
PA
L
Loren D Offline
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PA
Sometimes if I have extra time at the end of a tuning, I take out the customer's gizzard.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: mstore] #1688147
05/31/11 09:43 PM
05/31/11 09:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 303
VA USA
S
SM Boone Offline
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S

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 303
VA USA
this is mildly hysterical.

Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: Jerry Groot RPT] #1688152
05/31/11 10:07 PM
05/31/11 10:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
Emmery Offline
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Emmery  Offline
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Originally Posted by Jerry Groot RPT
Thanks Loren. I appreciate the pat on the back.

Jeff, you increased your speed, good job! Without compromising quality no doubt. smile

We all, well, most of us anyway, have increased our speeds from when we first started. My first tuning took me all day and came out horrible.

To Emmery,

Lowering standards has NOTHING to do with it. To imply that some of us do that is just asking for more trouble which you seem to be very good at doing. Why is it that you always seem to want to turn everything a PTG member says into something I DID NOT SAY or that you try to make one of one of us look bad? Do you dislike us that much? Stop twisting my words.

I repeat again and add..... Either you can, or you cannot TUNE a pianos unison's pure. For the most part, we are not talking tuning the whole piano here, we are talking unison's....... A unison is either pure, or, it is not. Oh, and for the record, common sense should tell a person that if you have to lower your standards to do a fine tuning, then obviously you shouldn't do it. Duhhh....

I've heard tunings where people have spent 5 hours on and it still sounded like crap. In fact, I've heard tunings where people have spent 5 hours on when they should have stopped at 3 because all they did was make it worse.

My point is that you are implying that the longer you spend on the tuning, the better it will sound and the more stable it will be. While in some cases and for some people that is true, to a point, consider the following: In all actuality, it could very well be just the opposite because of the constant turning of the tuning pins. The tuners ears start hearing things that they didn't hear before. The tuner becomes far to fussy and can even begin to make things worse and will. I'm sure all of you more experienced technicians have experienced that with yourselves. Plus, the more the tuning pin is fooled around with, up down, oops, went past it again, the less stable that tuning pin is becoming on each attempt to put that string in tune. Thus, less stability not more. Get it in tune, get it stable and move onto the next note.

One point to remember is that there is no such thing as perfect. Therefore, no tuning can be made perfect. Especially with pianos and the continual variable constants that we have with them such as lighting being turned on during concert tunings. A/C coming on and off. Heat vents blowing on the piano etc....

It is not necessary in my opinion, to get into strong disagreements on this nor is it necessary to throw in a whole bunch of math proving how much math a person can put into all of this.

Kee's,

Isn't that a bit of a "stretch" ------ to say that you'd have to blow the piano apart???? wink


If lowering standards has NOTHING to do with it then why worry about what people might think? Lowering standards to cut time is much more common than you claim (not just for this trade either), and customers are not ignorant of this.

Also, I have hundreds of postings with RPTs and PTG members here and elsewhere that have nothing to do with the PTG and many are even amicable...thats a pile of B.S. to claim I "always" attack the PTG or its members, your just trying to stir things up and deflect the real issue of "how to not appear like your cutting corners when so many other people in the world who rush things do".

Jerry, as a rule of thumb...if I don't mention the PTG in a thread, and the thread itself is not about the PTG...then keep your pie hole shut about accusing me of attacking PTG members. If you can't manage that, go whine to the moderator and if they see me out of line, they'll let me know.

I had simply mentioned in the thread my experiences with following up after some techs who did lousy, quickly rushed tunings. There are other techs I talk to that share the same experiences, so it lends credence to the notion that some techs rush their work and the quality of their tuning naturally suffers. It comes as no surprise to me when a customer complains that the tech was in and out in 30 minutes and they are also not happy with the tuning quality. I have seen the opposite also; that a tech takes an unreasonable amount of time to do a standard tuning.

I have heard a lot of bragging in regards to record times and numbers of pianos tuned in one day ect.. on this forum. Why is it that Youtube is completely vacant of any substantiation of these claims? Even stranger, I have yet to see this kind of bragging on this topic in any of the European and International piano tech forums I frequent. Nobody has backed up their claims, so for the sake of clarification these verbal claims (without proof)are thus simply bragging and excessive boastfulness. This is frowned upon by many cultures and professionals. Some people are fine with that and think its the same as tooting ones own horn...others like myself find it suspect and highly dubious since there is no proof or any relevant details about the condition of the piano when it was started. Tuning one string on an otherwise perfectly tuned piano is still technically tuning a piano and I can do that in 5 seconds. Many tuners have no separate fee structure for "touch ups" and also consider this a full tuning, when in reality from what we are talking about here, its not.




Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
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Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: Emmery] #1688166
05/31/11 10:30 PM
05/31/11 10:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 526
USA
J
Jbyron Offline
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 526
USA
Originally Posted by Emmery
Originally Posted by Jerry Groot RPT
Thanks Loren. I appreciate the pat on the back.

Jeff, you increased your speed, good job! Without compromising quality no doubt. smile

We all, well, most of us anyway, have increased our speeds from when we first started. My first tuning took me all day and came out horrible.

To Emmery,

Lowering standards has NOTHING to do with it. To imply that some of us do that is just asking for more trouble which you seem to be very good at doing. Why is it that you always seem to want to turn everything a PTG member says into something I DID NOT SAY or that you try to make one of one of us look bad? Do you dislike us that much? Stop twisting my words.

I repeat again and add..... Either you can, or you cannot TUNE a pianos unison's pure. For the most part, we are not talking tuning the whole piano here, we are talking unison's....... A unison is either pure, or, it is not. Oh, and for the record, common sense should tell a person that if you have to lower your standards to do a fine tuning, then obviously you shouldn't do it. Duhhh....

I've heard tunings where people have spent 5 hours on and it still sounded like crap. In fact, I've heard tunings where people have spent 5 hours on when they should have stopped at 3 because all they did was make it worse.

My point is that you are implying that the longer you spend on the tuning, the better it will sound and the more stable it will be. While in some cases and for some people that is true, to a point, consider the following: In all actuality, it could very well be just the opposite because of the constant turning of the tuning pins. The tuners ears start hearing things that they didn't hear before. The tuner becomes far to fussy and can even begin to make things worse and will. I'm sure all of you more experienced technicians have experienced that with yourselves. Plus, the more the tuning pin is fooled around with, up down, oops, went past it again, the less stable that tuning pin is becoming on each attempt to put that string in tune. Thus, less stability not more. Get it in tune, get it stable and move onto the next note.

One point to remember is that there is no such thing as perfect. Therefore, no tuning can be made perfect. Especially with pianos and the continual variable constants that we have with them such as lighting being turned on during concert tunings. A/C coming on and off. Heat vents blowing on the piano etc....

It is not necessary in my opinion, to get into strong disagreements on this nor is it necessary to throw in a whole bunch of math proving how much math a person can put into all of this.

Kee's,

Isn't that a bit of a "stretch" ------ to say that you'd have to blow the piano apart???? wink


If lowering standards has NOTHING to do with it then why worry about what people might think? Lowering standards to cut time is much more common than you claim (not just for this trade either), and customers are not ignorant of this.

Also, I have hundreds of postings with RPTs and PTG members here and elsewhere that have nothing to do with the PTG and many are even amicable...thats a pile of B.S. to claim I "always" attack the PTG or its members, your just trying to stir things up and deflect the real issue of "how to not appear like your cutting corners when so many other people in the world who rush things do".

Jerry, as a rule of thumb...if I don't mention the PTG in a thread, and the thread itself is not about the PTG...then keep your pie hole shut about accusing me of attacking PTG members. If you can't manage that, go whine to the moderator and if they see me out of line, they'll let me know.

I had simply mentioned in the thread my experiences with following up after some techs who did lousy, quickly rushed tunings. There are other techs I talk to that share the same experiences, so it lends credence to the notion that some techs rush their work and the quality of their tuning naturally suffers. It comes as no surprise to me when a customer complains that the tech was in and out in 30 minutes and they are also not happy with the tuning quality. I have seen the opposite also; that a tech takes an unreasonable amount of time to do a standard tuning.

I have heard a lot of bragging in regards to record times and numbers of pianos tuned in one day ect.. on this forum. Why is it that Youtube is completely vacant of any substantiation of these claims? Even stranger, I have yet to see this kind of bragging on this topic in any of the European and International piano tech forums I frequent. Nobody has backed up their claims, so for the sake of clarification these verbal claims (without proof)are thus simply bragging and excessive boastfulness. This is frowned upon by many cultures and professionals. Some people are fine with that and think its the same as tooting ones own horn...others like myself find it suspect and highly dubious since there is no proof or any relevant details about the condition of the piano when it was started. Tuning one string on an otherwise perfectly tuned piano is still technically tuning a piano and I can do that in 5 seconds. Many tuners have no separate fee structure for "touch ups" and also consider this a full tuning, when in reality from what we are talking about here, its not.





OK, something I've always wanted to ask.....What exactly is a 'pie hole'?


Tuner-Technician


Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: mstore] #1688218
06/01/11 12:01 AM
06/01/11 12:01 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,564
R
rXd Offline
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rXd  Offline
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R

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,564
Extracting a possible meaning from the context, could it be the hole where a person might put pies? I put pies in my mouth but I also eat corn... All very confusing.
Bernard Shaw spoke of two nations seperates by a common language.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: mstore] #1688240
06/01/11 12:53 AM
06/01/11 12:53 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,219
Olympia, WA
rysowers Offline
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rysowers  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,219
Olympia, WA
What I notice about tuning unisons is that as my skills have developed I get pickier and pickier. What I thought was beat less 10 years ago might not sound the same now. Our ears get more and more refined and nuanced (if you are smart tuner and wear hearing protection smile ).

My experience with the PTG tuning exam has taught me that the threshold for human perception of unisons is somewhere around .3 or .4 cents. It would be a very rare individual who could reliably set unisons within that level of tolerance.

Piano tuning is not about perfection, its about finding the best compromise in a reasonable amount of time at a quality level that is acceptable to the client. Every piano I tune has notes that can't be tuned "beatless". When my "tuners ears" are on and I'm in the zone I hear all sorts of odd beats in the high partials, even when the unison is as pure as I can get it. There is often no one point where every audible partial is completely beat free.

However once I turn my tuning ears off, and just play the piano after a good tuning session, it does sound beatless. When we tune, its like we are looking at a picture with a magnifying glass: we see all sorts of imperfections. But when we play the piano it is like looking at the same picture from 3 feet away. The imperfections are no longer perceptible.

In conclusion, I believe if you can reliably tune stable unisons within .6 cents, you can justify charging good money for your services.


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: mstore] #1688277
06/01/11 03:02 AM
06/01/11 03:02 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,564
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rXd Offline
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.6 cent is roughly a beat every 2 seconds at the fundamental? If so, then the 2nd pertial will beat twice as fast etc. By the time we get to the 6th partial (the whiney one that betrays poor unisons immediately) that one will be beatingreally fast. I won't do the math but is putting a number on it is dangerous ground?.
How about a really practical way. If you can't tune another interval from a completed unison then that unison is not good enough. This is also a good argument for completing unisons as we tune. We can check our work as we go. I've always thought that removing a temperament strip a the last operation in tuning a piano is a very risky thing to do, especially if time has become limited.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: mstore] #1688278
06/01/11 03:07 AM
06/01/11 03:07 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline
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Mark R.  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Kees,

My apologies - sometimes I'm a but "impervious" to other people's attempts at humor. And yes, there is an intrinsic uncertainty element involved in testing for a beatless unison (frequency being the inverse of time). So, not wanting to turn pianos into black holes, let's get practical:

If the note is struck at a reasonable forte (I don't like fortissimo, because it adds too much harshness to the tone), and there is no audible beat in the whole audible partial envelope until the note dies away, then I classify it as beatless, "close enough", etc.

In your example, I hear no beat at the fundamental, but if I turn up my volume immediately after the note is struck, at around one third through the recording I pick up a slow beat in the second partial (C5), possible the third also (G5). With slow, I mean about one beat every 2 seconds. It might not be a full beat, but I hear some sort of phase change around the mid-point of the recording. I might be mistaken, but that's what I hear.


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: DoelKees] #1688318
06/01/11 06:41 AM
06/01/11 06:41 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,889
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
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UnrightTooner  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,889
Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted by DoelKees
From a more practical point of here's the best unison I can tune on my old upright.

Critique would be greatly appreciated.

Kees


I hear a 4 Hz beat, and slower beats, throughout the whole tone. But it still might be the best place for that unison. Consider listening to each string seperately with the available 4ths and 5ths. I will often have a rock solid unison that seems off with other notes. Then I mute 2 strings and retune the third string to 4ths and 5ths, or whatever, only to find that the unison is still rock solid when removing the mute.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: mstore] #1688327
06/01/11 06:57 AM
06/01/11 06:57 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,889
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
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UnrightTooner  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,889
Bradford County, PA
Emmery:

I agree that Jerry is a braggart and that he takes criticism poorly and as a reflection on the PTG. So what? You and I have faults, too.

But through the “prickles” that are in your post, you do bring up a point. It makes me consider if there is an inherent quality problem with fast tunings and if this can be documented. I think Jerry unintentionally did so in a Topic he posted. It was a couple years back, if I remember right. It was a newer Yamaha, maybe a P-22. He could not get it to stay in tune and called in help (which I greatly admire, I have a trust problem.) It turned out that it was a rendering issue and adjusting the pressure bar helped.

I like to think that I would have noticed this because I tune slower and am constantly changing my hammer technique depending on the situation, including rendering friction. Or I may have decided at the time that the rendering was unacceptable and adjusted the pressure bar at the first visit. But I really don’t know. It is just what I like to think (I have a pride problem, in addition to a trust problem.)


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: rysowers] #1688338
06/01/11 07:16 AM
06/01/11 07:16 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,889
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
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Originally Posted by rysowers
.....

My experience with the PTG tuning exam has taught me that the threshold for human perception of unisons is somewhere around .3 or .4 cents. It would be a very rare individual who could reliably set unisons within that level of tolerance.

.....


Thanks for giving some analytical feedback!

I suspect that this is the range in which the strings will couple, rather than the point whre the human ear no longer perceives beats. Now, not all strings will couple, especially if the hammer is not mated well. But for strings that will couple, I believe that there is a minumum beat speed that can exist. Any closer in pitch and they couple with no beat. Like two magnets on a slick table. You might be able to place them 1/2 inch apart, but not 1/4 inch apart.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: mstore] #1688353
06/01/11 07:32 AM
06/01/11 07:32 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Quote
If lowering standards has NOTHING to do with it then why worry about what people might think? Lowering standards to cut time is much more common than you claim (not just for this trade either), and customers are not ignorant of this.


You're the one that brought this up in this thread, not me. I simply made a point and yes, you do most certainly, pick on RPT's. Me, Bill Bremmer... Hmmm, isn't that why just recently you received a time out? For baiting Bill? There is no reasoning with you Emmery. Don't talk to me anymore in fact, don't even address anything I have to say. If you don't like it, don't read it and don't say anything about it.

Quote
Jerry, as a rule of thumb...if I don't mention the PTG in a thread, and the thread itself is not about the PTG...then keep your pie hole shut about accusing me of attacking PTG members. If you can't manage that, go whine to the moderator and if they see me out of line, they'll let me know.


Keep it up and I will do just that. You're pointing fingers.

Quote
I have heard a lot of bragging in regards to record times and numbers of pianos tuned in one day ect.. on this forum. Why is it that Youtube is completely vacant of any substantiation of these claims? Even stranger, I have yet to see this kind of bragging on this topic in any of the European and International piano tech forums I frequent. Nobody has backed up their claims, so for the sake of clarification these verbal claims (without proof)are thus simply bragging and excessive boastfulness. This is frowned upon by many cultures and professionals. Some people are fine with that and think its the same as tooting ones own horn...others like myself find it suspect and highly dubious since there is no proof or any relevant details about the condition of the piano when it was started. Tuning one string on an otherwise perfectly tuned piano is still technically tuning a piano and I can do that in 5 seconds. Bragging??? Many tuners have no separate fee structure for "touch ups" and also consider this a full tuning, when in reality from what we are talking about here, its not.


Some people can tune fast, I've seen them. They are on record as being able to do so and have done excellent tunings at the same time. As I said, just because you may not be able to do so, doesn't mean that rule applies to everyone.

Hmmm, braggard now? Tooner, you too? Now I remember why I stopped talking to you in the first place Emmery.

Jeff, just when I thought you were going to be nice to me for again... frown I most certainly do not intentionally brag but, I do state as do others in the "what did you do today thread if I tune 3, or if I tune 8 pianos in a day. I find that to be a fun thread. So what?

Go home now Emmery and behave yourself. There is no reason to be rude. Now leave me alone and go back to the point of the thread. "How off can a unison be?"

P.S. Jeff, you were close. It was a Yamaha U1 that I was having trouble with. Since lowering the tension on the pressure bar, that piano has stayed in tune twice as good as it used too. Wow, great memory! My memory sucks! smile

Last edited by Jerry Groot RPT; 06/01/11 07:48 AM.

Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: rXd] #1688368
06/01/11 07:54 AM
06/01/11 07:54 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 73
Shreveport, LA
J
JPDelmore Offline
Full Member
JPDelmore  Offline
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J

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 73
Shreveport, LA
Originally Posted by rxd
Extracting a possible meaning from the context, could it be the hole where a person might put pies? I put pies in my mouth but I also eat corn... All very confusing.
Bernard Shaw spoke of two nations seperates by a common language.


Ummmm...LOL!!!


...and the dayight o'er the pavement, quite has faded...and the strong dead march enwraps me...

PTG Associate Member
Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: rXd] #1688372
06/01/11 08:04 AM
06/01/11 08:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
Emmery Offline
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Emmery  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted by rxd
.6 cent is roughly a beat every 2 seconds at the fundamental? If so, then the 2nd pertial will beat twice as fast etc. By the time we get to the 6th partial (the whiney one that betrays poor unisons immediately) that one will be beatingreally fast. I won't do the math but is putting a number on it is dangerous ground?.
How about a really practical way. If you can't tune another interval from a completed unison then that unison is not good enough. This is also a good argument for completing unisons as we tune. We can check our work as we go. I've always thought that removing a temperament strip a the last operation in tuning a piano is a very risky thing to do, especially if time has become limited.


If you took A-440 as an example, .6 cents difference on the fundamental = 440.15 Hz = 1 beat in every 6.6 seconds. If the strings of a unison exibit on all their audible partials similar levels of inharmonicity then a good ETD would easily have the capability to assist in rendering it as beatless as any aural tuner could. Unfortunately, the inharmonicity varies enough through all the audible partials that the beats are cleaned up as a group and the fundamental's frequency ends up less than perfectly matched but still sounding good. When forced to choose a compromise on the worst case scenarios there are far too many variables for a programmed ETD to deal with. Even tuners will sometimes disagree on what sounds best and this is the reason for good tuning tests having multiple examiners present and reaching a consensus about the best result, and then recording it on the ETD for reference.




Last edited by Emmery; 06/01/11 08:05 AM.

Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: mstore] #1688376
06/01/11 08:08 AM
06/01/11 08:08 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,889
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,889
Bradford County, PA
Jerry:

Think about it. You wanted to make a point about unisons being tuned beatless even though some people think this is actually impossible. You decided to give an example of something some people think is not possible, but actually is. Instead of choosing something neutral like bumble bees flying, you chose to give an example of something you do that others think is impossible. Of course it is bragging, but I don't think you did it intentionally. You did it without thinking. It is just what you do. So what?

But back to the pressure bar. I service a piano that had the opposite problem. After tightening the pressure bar, it is holding tune much better. Little changes in the humidity do not cause the strings to change pitch now. I didn't tighten the top octave or so, but will next time. Might even be this decade. wink


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: mstore] #1688458
06/01/11 10:35 AM
06/01/11 10:35 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Hi Jeff,

Lunch time! smile

Right, I did not do it intentionally. That's for pointing that out. I guess it appeared way. I type fast sometimes scurrying to get out and onto the next job on time. I actually meant to be referring to any good technician. Ryan Sowers smile will be my example. I've heard Ryan's tunings online. He tunes beautiful unison's. Go to his website and listen to them. They are perfectly pure. So does Patrick and many other excellent technician's. In my opinion, all good technicians should be able to tune nice clean unison's. That is what I was trying to convey.

Will they stay? That is dependent upon the techs abilities and the surrounding environment.


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: Jerry Groot RPT] #1688487
06/01/11 11:10 AM
06/01/11 11:10 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Emmery  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada

Originally Posted by Jerry Groot RPT
Quote
If lowering standards has NOTHING to do with it then why worry about what people might think? Lowering standards to cut time is much more common than you claim (not just for this trade either), and customers are not ignorant of this.


You're the one that brought this up in this thread, not me. I simply made a point and yes, you do most certainly, pick on RPT's. Me, Bill Bremmer... Hmmm, isn't that why just recently you received a time out? For baiting Bill? There is no reasoning with you Emmery. Don't talk to me anymore in fact, don't even address anything I have to say. If you don't like it, don't read it and don't say anything about it.

Quote
Jerry, as a rule of thumb...if I don't mention the PTG in a thread, and the thread itself is not about the PTG...then keep your pie hole shut about accusing me of attacking PTG members. If you can't manage that, go whine to the moderator and if they see me out of line, they'll let me know.


Keep it up and I will do just that. You're pointing fingers.

Quote
I have heard a lot of bragging in regards to record times and numbers of pianos tuned in one day ect.. on this forum. Why is it that Youtube is completely vacant of any substantiation of these claims? Even stranger, I have yet to see this kind of bragging on this topic in any of the European and International piano tech forums I frequent. Nobody has backed up their claims, so for the sake of clarification these verbal claims (without proof)are thus simply bragging and excessive boastfulness. This is frowned upon by many cultures and professionals. Some people are fine with that and think its the same as tooting ones own horn...others like myself find it suspect and highly dubious since there is no proof or any relevant details about the condition of the piano when it was started. Tuning one string on an otherwise perfectly tuned piano is still technically tuning a piano and I can do that in 5 seconds. Bragging??? Many tuners have no separate fee structure for "touch ups" and also consider this a full tuning, when in reality from what we are talking about here, its not.


Some people can tune fast, I've seen them. They are on record as being able to do so and have done excellent tunings at the same time. As I said, just because you may not be able to do so, doesn't mean that rule applies to everyone.

Hmmm, braggard now? Tooner, you too? Now I remember why I stopped talking to you in the first place Emmery.

Jeff, just when I thought you were going to be nice to me for again... frown I most certainly do not intentionally brag but, I do state as do others in the "what did you do today thread if I tune 3, or if I tune 8 pianos in a day. I find that to be a fun thread. So what?

Go home now Emmery and behave yourself. There is no reason to be rude. Now leave me alone and go back to the point of the thread. "How off can a unison be?"

P.S. Jeff, you were close. It was a Yamaha U1 that I was having trouble with. Since lowering the tension on the pressure bar, that piano has stayed in tune twice as good as it used too. Wow, great memory! My memory sucks! smile


You have a lot of nerve ordering me here and there and to not respond to your threads or others. Just when did you become the forum owner or moderator here Jerry? Is this how you intend on making points here, by attempting to silence your critics with threats.

Brag
To talk about one's self, or things pertaining to one's self, in a manner intended to excite admiration, envy, or wonder; to talk boastfully; to boast; -- often followed by of; as, to brag of one's exploits, courage, or money, or of the great things one intends to do.
To boast of.
A boast or boasting; bragging; ostentatious pretense or self glorification.
The thing which is boasted of.


Another way to look at it is this..."It's not bragging if you can back it up." Muhammad Ali

Since its just your words in here and its not backed up with anything, people can justifiably view it as bragging...I stand by that and merely pointed it out to others. If it irks you...to bad, I didn't tell you to come on here and brag.

Like I mentioned before Jerry, I have hundreds of posts here and elsewhere with PTG members that are amicable. I can't help the fact that you want to relate my response to your membership rather than the stance you take in your views. Any person with half a brain can see the thread has nothing to do with the PTG. Nice try at deflection...now pony up and explain to me how bragging about something amongst your peers and on a public forum is an effective way to garner respect.

I can't really comment on my tuning speed relative to others since there is no real way to have truly comparitive conditions. The degree that the piano is out of tune, the tightness of the pinblock and many other factors come into play that makes makes a claim of this nature simply ludicrous to those of us who see these variables every day. Its a race where the starting line can be anywhere you ideally want...thats the reason I don't take any claims too seriously.


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: mstore] #1688493
06/01/11 11:25 AM
06/01/11 11:25 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,889
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,889
Bradford County, PA
We are supposed to "garner respect"? That might be worse than bragging...


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: how off can a unison be? [Re: mstore] #1688495
06/01/11 11:27 AM
06/01/11 11:27 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
I've already explained that bragging part and so has Jeff. If you can't understand it, that's your problem.

You always seem to prefer to twist and shout and point fingers and then you refuse to stop. Especially at PTG members. Everyone sees that. You bait and then bait some more. I have asked you before in other threads to just plain QUIT but for some reason unknown to me, you refuse. I've asked you again here to quit and you still refuse. Now, I'm asking you again, just knock it off. It serves NO useful purpose.

In many of your posts in other threads, you can make a lot of sense and you can have great input and great advice. How about keeping it that way instead of trying to flame me instead?

Oh, and I've never seen anything of your tunings posted online before either by the way...

I am simply asking you to be nice which are not apparently willing to do to me and to stop trying to tick me off. Your aim seems to be to bait someone into an argument with you so that you can use something against them later on. For what purpose, to me, is meaningless and silly. I'm done talking with you.



Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
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