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Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
Mark R. #1686899 05/30/11 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark R.
Originally Posted by partistic
How do you set the hammer stroke on verticals?


The first, which Reblitz refers to, is a hinged hammer rail that swings as a complete unit (including the brass or silver-coloured metal cover). It rests on stops that are cast into (or attached to) the action brackets/posts. Here, you can decrease the hammer stroke by inserting felt shims between the stops and the rail. It appears to me that this design is predominant in America - hence it's referred to by Reblitz - but very rare in European and Asian pianos. (I speak under correction.)


Mark,

Schiedmayer & Soehne is an exception. Your rule applies to others I looked at: Bechstein, Ibach, J & P Schiedmayer, Zeitter & Winkelmann. In this image you may just be able to see the four blue felts on which the rail rests being supported by the action bracket castings:

[Linked Image]

It's easier to see the red felts in this Steingraeber 130, a modern exception:

[Linked Image]

Pros and cons?

PS

The Steingraeber 138 follows your European model - top of the line, more responsive?

[Linked Image]


Ian

Last edited by Withindale; 05/30/11 06:27 AM.

Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
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Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
accordeur #1687533 05/31/11 02:42 AM
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Re: Jack Holding Tool

I just went through my small assortment of regulation tools. The hammer shank reducer works the best in a pinch. I rest the nut end on the jack toe and the other end against the backcheck. Its weight keeps the jack down and it's short enough not to get in the way of anything. Not having seen the jack holding tool in action, I don't know whether it would work any better.

Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
Karen A. #1687559 05/31/11 04:24 AM
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Ian,

Pros and cons:

1) Responsiveness? Although I see no particular reason for having a highly responsive soft pedal, I would agree that the insert-style hammer rail is lighter, and hence easier (more responsive) to move.
2) Mechanical long-term stability? I've seen more than one rail where the insert is bent, because the collective weight of the hammers twists the insert over the years. On my Zimmermann, this has caused the lowest five hammers to have progressively shorter hammer stroke. The section where the spoon is attached, has gradually bent towards the strings.
3) Return noise? If one releases the soft pedal quickly, the insert-style rail might be more quiet in returning to its rest position, because it's lighter. The other design, I imagine, might result in a louder "clunk".
4) Aesthetics? Preference of the designer? Voodoo?


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
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1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
Karen A. #1687618 05/31/11 08:10 AM
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I kind of like the idea of this Topic. It will be a bit chaotic, but some people like thier "sock drawers" to be messy.

To get and keep the jack out of the way, I insert the screwdriver low, from the side, at an angle. Then as I straighten the screwdriver and move it sideways and upward, it makes the jack move towards you and gives you clearance. When starting a screw, turn it CCW until you feel it click, then screw it in. This will reduce the chance of cross threading.


Jeff Deutschle
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Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
Karen A. #1687619 05/31/11 08:13 AM
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I remove glued on felt and leather by dampening it and then using a hot iron to steam the glue. Anything left gets scraped and maybe sanded.


Jeff Deutschle
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Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
UnrightTooner #1687729 05/31/11 12:02 PM
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Re: jack holding tool

I have one I bought from APSCO many years ago and it works well. You can also gain better access if the action is out of the piano. remove the bridle strap and the wippen will fall,making it much easier to restart the flange screw.


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Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
UnrightTooner #1688314 06/01/11 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
I kind of like the idea of this Topic. It will be a bit chaotic, but some people like thier "sock drawers" to be messy.


It may help to put a "Re:" at the top of each message. But, like all of my piano work at this stage, I'm discovering the better method no sooner than half-way through. Along with the unanticipated consequences.

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
When starting a screw, turn it CCW until you feel it click, then screw it in. This will reduce the chance of cross threading.


Uh oh. And I suppose not keeping the screws numbered didn't help either. At least I can tell any tech in the future: if there's a problem with putting back an even-numbered hammer, I can tell you why. Or I can just limit my playing to the odd-numbered keys. All joking aside, how much did I screw up?

Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
UnrightTooner #1688326 06/01/11 07:56 AM
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Re: removing glued felt

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
I remove glued on felt and leather by dampening it and then using a hot iron to steam the glue. Anything left gets scraped and maybe sanded.


With the hammer rail felt, I cut away the bulk of it from the thin, glued portion with an exacto-knife. Then I just smoothed water over that remaining narrow strip with my finger a couple of times, and carefully removed the softened glue with the exacto-knife. It came off beautifully and I didn't need to sand.

Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
Karen A. #1688329 06/01/11 08:02 AM
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Re: Width of hammer rail felt (new question)

I need to replace 3/4" wide hammer rail felt, but have found new felt in only 5/8", 1", and 1 1/4" widths. The width actually seems to make a difference. The hammer shank rests against the hammer rail at an angle, so the point at which it makes contact with the felt will affect its distance from the strings. I tested this by laying a piece of the felt diagonally across the rail behind a few hammers. The hammers that rested on the "wider" felt protruded farther than those that rested on the "narrower" felt. I'm not sure what to do, other than get the 5/8" felt and align it along the bottom edge of the original felt instead of the top of the rail.

Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
Karen A. #1688332 06/01/11 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Karen A.
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
I kind of like the idea of this Topic. It will be a bit chaotic, but some people like thier "sock drawers" to be messy.


It may help to put a "Re:" at the top of each message. But, like all of my piano work at this stage, I'm discovering the better method no sooner than half-way through. Along with the unanticipated consequences.

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
When starting a screw, turn it CCW until you feel it click, then screw it in. This will reduce the chance of cross threading.


Uh oh. And I suppose not keeping the screws numbered didn't help either. At least I can tell any tech in the future: if there's a problem with putting back an even-numbered hammer, I can tell you why. Or I can just limit my playing to the odd-numbered keys. All joking aside, how much did I screw up?


Using the quick qoute is probably better than using the Re:

If you did not have to force the screw in place, you did not cross thread it. If you did cross thread it, you must cross thread all of them or the Hiedi-Ho Principle will cause the piano to turn into a grey-market hole. crazy

I knew a guy that used to say that there are two things to remember. First, don't sweat the small stuff. Second, it's all small stuff.


Jeff Deutschle
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Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
Karen A. #1689468 06/02/11 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Karen A.
On the chance that I may not be the only person in this position -- having a few specific questions that don't deserve their own thread -- I thought I'd offer an open thread with nothing off-topic. Curious to see what happens...

In my case, I'm working on my first piano, so my question is very basic:

When I'm removing old hammer rail cloth, how should I get the glue/fuzz off? I've heard of people using wallpaper paste remover, alcohol (denatured??), and diluted vinegar to remove old glue from various parts of the action.
I've been using Q-tips dipped in very hot water to get fuzz and glue off the action parts in my piano. Its working fine, I just go through a lot of Q-tips.


I'll figure it out eventually.
Until then you may want to keep a safe distance.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: Why do jacks clicks against butt in upright piano?
accordeur #1691843 06/07/11 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by accordeur
Are they clicking when the jack returns or on initial take-off?

Jack clicking against let-off rail? (too much dip?) Butt catch is loose and clicks when catching? Loose jack flange? Bridle wire clicking against back check wire? Could be many things. Loose hammer head?

Is this the same problem you are trying to fix on your other thread about graphite, teflon powder? If so, you should continue the thread there.


Jean

The clicks were due to hardened 86 year old butt leather, and in case you haven't seen my post in the other thread here it is:

Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by Withindale
After cleaning the butt leather, some keys click more than before when the jack springs forward, some less (like the first hammer I tried!)


The answer to the annoying clicks that began this thread turned out to be neither graphite nor molybdenum disulfide, nor even Telfon. Instead ir was to soften the butt leather that had hardened since 1924 when the hammers were made. Once the source was identified I massaged the leather a bit to soften it up - clicks gone.

As far as I can tell the jacks were springing forward then back into the butt leather. The clicks switched from one key to another when I swapped clicking and non-clicking hammers. The butt leather on the on-clicking hammers seemed softer. So the clicks appear to have been due to wood hitting hard leather.


All goes to prove your point about one thread per topic.

Ian


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Re: Why do jacks clicks against butt in upright piano?
Karen A. #1692221 06/07/11 09:08 PM
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At what point should a piano be CUT UP into little pieces?

Dan "Piano Tinkerer"


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Re: Why do jacks clicks against butt in upright piano?
woodfab #1692649 06/08/11 05:40 PM
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Just before it's assembled?

Ian


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Re: Why do jacks clicks against butt in upright piano?
Withindale #1692983 06/09/11 02:45 PM
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It's funny that all of my questions arose as a result of my needing to replace the butt leather, in my case because of disintegrating corfam. But I never heard clicks, even when the corfam was so worn that the underfelt was exposed.

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