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Open Thread for Short Questions
#1685917 05/28/11 07:18 AM
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On the chance that I may not be the only person in this position -- having a few specific questions that don't deserve their own thread -- I thought I'd offer an open thread with nothing off-topic. Curious to see what happens...

In my case, I'm working on my first piano, so my question is very basic:

When I'm removing old hammer rail cloth, how should I get the glue/fuzz off? I've heard of people using wallpaper paste remover, alcohol (denatured??), and diluted vinegar to remove old glue from various parts of the action.

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Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
Karen A. #1685954 05/28/11 09:17 AM
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I remove the worst with a sharp chisel and then sand with 80 grit. Vinegar, not diluted, is my prefered choice for removing old dampers, key bushings.


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
accordeur #1686052 05/28/11 12:38 PM
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Thanks, accordeur.

I'm a little hesitant to ask my next question, but here it is: Is there some trick to returning the hammer to a drop action (console Acrosonic?) I'm wanting one hand to position the flange, another to hold the screw, and another to keep the top of the jack out of the way.

Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
Karen A. #1686064 05/28/11 12:54 PM
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Do you have a screw holder/starter? There are many kinds. Here are a few examples.

http://www.micromark.com/Quick-Wedge-Screwdriver-and-Screw-Starter,8602.html

http://www.drillspot.com/products/63879/Proto_9866_Double_End_Screw_Starter



Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Why do jacks clicks against butt in upright piano?
Karen A. #1686089 05/28/11 01:46 PM
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Here's a question about clicking jacks.

A few keys on my upright started to click after I had set the hammer letoff to about 3 mm, 1/8" from the strings. The clicks seemed to come from the hammer butts rebounding onto the jacks. To eliminate them I reduced the hammer letoff slightly. Is this correct, or could there be an underlying problem to resolve?

BTW the wippen flange screws are tight.

Thanks

Ian


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Re: Why do jacks clicks against butt in upright piano?
Karen A. #1686090 05/28/11 01:48 PM
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Are they clicking when the jack returns or on initial take-off?

Jack clicking against let-off rail? (too much dip?) Butt catch is loose and clicks when catching? Loose jack flange? Bridle wire clicking against back check wire? Could be many things. Loose hammer head?

Is this the same problem you are trying to fix on your other thread about graphite, teflon powder? If so, you should continue the thread there.





Last edited by accordeur; 05/28/11 02:19 PM.

Jean Poulin

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Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
Karen A. #1686103 05/28/11 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Karen A.
On the chance that I may not be the only person in this position -- having a few specific questions that don't deserve their own thread -- I thought I'd offer an open thread with nothing off-topic. Curious to see what happens...


This is just my opinion, but short questions can turn into long ones. I think it would make for a confusing thread.

New threads are better I feel, and no question is too short. Good luck smile


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
Karen A. #1686126 05/28/11 03:17 PM
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How do you set the hammer stroke on verticals? Reblitz says glue felt under the hammer rail over each action bracket, but I don't know how to understand it. All the pianos I have seen only have two action brackets on each end and I can't think of a way to glue felt over the brackets to make the hammer stroke shorter.

Only way I can think of is to glue felt between the thinner rail which the soft pedal moves and the thicker hammer rail which is behind it. Is that how it is done?

Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
partistic #1686131 05/28/11 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by partistic
How do you set the hammer stroke on verticals? Reblitz says glue felt under the hammer rail over each action bracket, but I don't know how to understand it. All the pianos I have seen only have two action brackets on each end and I can't think of a way to glue felt over the brackets to make the hammer stroke shorter.

Only way I can think of is to glue felt between the thinner rail which the soft pedal moves and the thicker hammer rail which is behind it. Is that how it is done?


Yes, one long piece of name board felt. Glued at the top of the main fixed rail. Different pianos have different systems. You can also put shims in between the main rail and the brackets. On other pianos there is only one hammer rail. For these you add felt to the contact points, usually four, that hold up the rail. Hope this helps, good luck. Maybe next time start a new thread. smile


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
accordeur #1686329 05/28/11 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by accordeur
Do you have a screw holder/starter? There are many kinds. Here are a few examples.


I do, actually. That's what one of my three hands is holding!

If there was a way to keep the jack toe down, I could just use the other to hold the flange in place.

Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
Karen A. #1686345 05/29/11 12:11 AM
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Took me a good deal of practice, but I put the screw in the flange, then ease it down into position with one hand while using the screwdriver in the other hand to hold the jack out of the way. Once I get the screw located at the hole in the rail I slide the screw driver beside the jack to the screw and then proceed to tighten the screw.

This can be fun on a spinet because the hammer you're holding onto will be slightly above the keyboard, while the screw has to be tightened from under the keyboard.

A screw starter will help, but it just takes practice to figure out what works best.

I've dropped many a screw into the bottom of the piano trying to get it started.


Tuning and repairing pianos since 1981 in Ranger, Tx. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Roys-Piano-Service/173273022711505
Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
accordeur #1686351 05/29/11 12:23 AM
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Quote
This is just my opinion, but short questions can turn into long ones. I think it would make for a confusing thread.

New threads are better I feel, and no question is too short. Good luck smile


I thought it would be worth an experiment. The answer may be that I'm almost unique smile

It would be easier to follow subthreads if replies were displayed beneath their parent. Without those kinds of subdivisions, it could get a little confusing.

Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
Karen A. #1686366 05/29/11 01:37 AM
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Then problem I see is that the thread title gives no indication of the specific content. Others browsing down the titles and looking for particular areas of interest may miss something.


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Why do jacks clicks against butt in upright piano?
accordeur #1686398 05/29/11 04:53 AM
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Jean,

Thanks, I'll have a look to see if it's the jack flanges or one of the "many things" you mention.

Originally Posted by accordeur
Are they clicking when the jack returns or on initial take-off?

When the hammer rebounds, I think, as described in this quote from the other thread in answer to a question about the need for any lubricants at all:

Originally Posted by withindale
In the end I guessed my clicks were due to some residue on the butt leather and cleaned a couple again. Result: no difference. I then noticed the clicks seemed to happen after hammer struck the string so I put them down to the butt hitting the jack on the rebound. Next time the action comes out I'll look at the jack flanges, etc. in case there is an underlying problem. A slight letoff adjustment, reducing hammer letoff, has stopped the clicks for now.


I agree with you about separate threads when there are no simple "one off" answers.

Whether opinions on lubricants and advice on clicking jacks belong in the same topic is a moot point!

Ian




Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
Karen A. #1686408 05/29/11 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Karen A.
Originally Posted by accordeur
Do you have a screw holder/starter? There are many kinds. Here are a few examples.


I do, actually. That's what one of my three hands is holding!

If there was a way to keep the jack toe down, I could just use the other to hold the flange in place.

[img]http://www.canadapiano.com/store/Jack-Holding-Tool.html[/img]


Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/
Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
wayne walker #1686412 05/29/11 06:43 AM
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Wayne,

Eureka! You piano technicians thought of everything.

And until I get one of those, my Papp's mute will do the trick!

Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
Karen A. #1686422 05/29/11 07:39 AM
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New question:

The bridges on a Baldwin acrosonic console are notched only for the pins on the speaking length side of the bridge. Is this normal?

[img]https://picasaweb.google.com/108316672733534722980/Pianos#5612100334986877202[/img]

Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
partistic #1686878 05/30/11 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by partistic
How do you set the hammer stroke on verticals?


It took me a while to figure this out as well. You have to differentiate between two basic designs.

The first, which Reblitz refers to, is a hinged hammer rail that swings as a complete unit (including the brass or silver-coloured metal cover). It rests on stops that are cast into (or attached to) the action brackets/posts. Here, you can decrease the hammer stroke by inserting felt shims between the stops and the rail. It appears to me that this design is predominant in America - hence it's referred to by Reblitz - but very rare in European and Asian pianos. (I speak under correction.)

The second design, which is the only one I've ever seen, has a hammer rail that is fixed to the action posts and cannot be moved. In other words, the thick rail with the metal cover stays put. There is a smaller rail, an insert, that is screwed to the main hammer rail using two, three or four flanges. This insert bears the hammer shanks, and the spoon/lever for the pedal trapwork is attached to this moveable insert. To reduce the hammer stroke, you insert a long felt strip (shim) between the fixed rail and the moveable insert.

Here's a picture of the second type, as found in my old Zimmermann:
[Linked Image]

The rail is fixed to the post. You can see the screw going through the metal cover, the half-round rail and the wooden block, into the post. The part with the green felt, on which the hammers rest, is the moveable insert. The trapwork spoon is screwed to bottom of the moveable insert. The spoon/lever goes underneath the wooden block. One of the flanges (hinges) on which the insert swings, can be seen just sticking out from underneath the fixed part of the rail, in the bottom right of the picture, just above the 6th catcher/backcheck assembly.

[Edit: I'm not referring to the white cable tie. In case you're wondering what that's about: it's only there because all the bridle straps are disconnected, as I'm working on the hammers. I'm using a long dowel, strapped in front of the backcheck wires, to keep the wippens up when removing the action from the piano.]

It's a bit unfortunate that Reblitz refers only to the first type of hammer rail (what I call the "American" type) - but there you have it, no book is perfect!

Last edited by Mark R.; 05/30/11 04:32 AM. Reason: given in post

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Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
Mark R. #1686879 05/30/11 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark R.
Originally Posted by partistic
How do you set the hammer stroke on verticals?


It took me a while to figure this out as well. You have to differentiate between two basic designs.

The first, which Reblitz refers to, is a hinged hammer rail that swings as a complete unit (including the brass or silver-coloured metal cover). It rests on stops that are cast into (or attached to) the action brackets/posts. Here, you can decrease the hammer stroke by inserting felt shims between the stops and the rail. It appears to me that this design is predominant in America - hence it's referred to by Reblitz - but very rare in European and Asian pianos. (I speak under correction.)

The second design, which is the only one I've ever seen, has a hammer rail that is fixed to the action posts and cannot be moved. In other words, the thick rail with the metal cover stays put. There is a smaller rail, an insert, that is screwed to the main hammer rail using two, three or four flanges. This insert bears the hammer shanks, and the spoon/lever for the pedal trapwork is attached to this moveable insert. To reduce the hammer stroke, you insert a long felt strip (shim) between the fixed rail and the moveable insert.

Here's a picture of the second type, as found in my old Zimmermann:
[Linked Image]

The rail is fixed to the post. You can see the screw going through the metal cover, the half-round rail and the wooden block, into the post. The part with the green felt, on which the hammers rest, is the moveable insert. The trapwork spoon is screwed to bottom of the moveable insert. The spoon/lever goes underneath the wooden block. One of the flanges (hinges) on which the insert swings, can be seen just sticking out from underneath the fixed part of the rail, in the bottom right of the picture, just above the 6th catcher/backcheck assembly.

[Edit: I'm not referring to the white cable tie. In case you're wondering that that's about: it's only there because all the bridle straps are disconnected, as I'm working on the hammers. I'm using a long dowel, strapped in front of the backcheck wires, to keep the wippens up when removing the action from the piano.]

It's a bit unfortunate that Reblitz refers only to the first type of hammer rail (what I call the "American" type) - but there you have it, no book is perfect!


Nicely explained.


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Re: Open Thread for Short Questions
wayne walker #1686884 05/30/11 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by wayne walker
Originally Posted by Karen A.
Originally Posted by accordeur
Do you have a screw holder/starter? There are many kinds. Here are a few examples.


I do, actually. That's what one of my three hands is holding!

If there was a way to keep the jack toe down, I could just use the other to hold the flange in place.

[img]http://www.canadapiano.com/store/Jack-Holding-Tool.html[/img]


NICE!!! As I get older, that tool will keep me younger!


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
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