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- Kawai MP10 -
Attack sample lengths: 2.5,3.0,2.2,1.8,1.7,1.5,1.1,?
Loop sample lengths: 1.4,1.3,0.66,0.83,0.65,0.75,0.65,?

- Nord Piano Grand Lady D (large 78.6 MB) -
Attack sample lengths: 3.0,3.5,3.2,2.3,2.1,1.0,?,?
Loop sample lengths: 2.2,1.9,2.2,2.1,2.2,1.5,?,?

- Yamaha AvantGrand N3 -
Attack sample lengths: 4.4,4.3,3.9,3.5,3.0,2.1,?,?
Loop sample lengths: 0.7,0.67,0.67,0.67,0.56,0.43,?,?

Ranked by attack sample lengths (long to short):
1. Yamaha AG N3
2. NP GLD
3. Kawai MP10

Ranked by loop sample lengths (long to short):
1. NP GLD
2. Kawai MP10
3. Yamaha AG N3

Yamaha seems to have given up on longer loops ever since they started processing them to the point where they sound somewhat static and lifeless. Kawai is almost as bad. IMO loops need to be at least 2 seconds long to have a shot at sounding realistic. The longer the better, with no looping (or some unobtrusive looping once the decay gets reasonably near the noise floor) the obvious goal.

Sorry to be a bore, but if we as consumers don't crab and generally raise awareness about this stuff it will never improve.

</anti-looping crusade>

Truth is not that simple. Roland are not using any audible loops yet their samples are not full length. They are either doing it by some clever randomization algorithm or by modeling. There are people though, including me, who think the SN sustain is somehow metallic and lifeless. Of course the reason for that could be other than the usage of non full-length samples. It could be the Roland engineers' taste for sound signature and its corresponding audio processing. In any case full length samples would be better than looped ones and I believe everybody should agree with that. I think the real problem for DP manufacturers is not whether memory is cheap enough for storing full length samples but rather the consequences of that, for example half-pedaling, repedaling, etc.

It seems there are more people on this forum who do claim to hear the shortcomings than those that don't. However, even for those that don't, what we are conscious of hearing is much, much less than we actually hear. Our conscious experience is constructed from a barrage of unconscious sensory input and pre-processing. There are also many people who claim they can't tell the difference between a 128 bit MP3 and a SACD, yet I am convinced that their listening experience is much less satisfying whether they know why or not.

Just because you can't directly pin your finger on something, does not mean that it is not there.



I think that this observation is right on the money.
The magic of the piano is not 88 sets of strings doing their own thing but the magical blend created in the moment of everything coming together. Not an easy thing to emulate and certainly not made easier by huge samples.

Right! This was often also my observation in the past: I tested several full-length piano sample sets, and striking single keys sounded really great, but then right when I started playing around, it sounded somehow "wrong". It was a real pity, but something was always wrong with all the great software sample libraries. I know most DPs are very limited in sample memory, but I like to play most DPs, whether it's Yamaha, Roland, Kawai, they somehow all sound quite "good enough" to me and playable. That was mostly not the case with almost all software pianos.

Has anyone tried these new clavinovas?
I'm interested in the action and sound on the CLP 470/480.
And if someone has also tried kawais, it would be interesting to know how their (470/480) action/sound are compared to CA 63/93?

Thanks

I'd suggest marked difference with the new sample set but I'll wait for DPBSD results before claiming that the 400 series is unlooped. Yamaha god bless their little heads do some very strange things from time to time.

Raising awareness will help only if the right people are aware. A Piano World "crusade" won't do it. No one on this board can set or influence Yamaha's direction. You'd need to take this to Yamaha. I'm not sure how to do that. Do you?

It is an error to think there can be a piano without measurable looping.
Of course it exists. Even acoustic pianos have some measurable amount of looping.

Sound is always periodic, that unavoidable.

Welcome back Peter!

James
x

Sure, pitched sound is periodic by definition, but that doesn't mean that every new period has to be an exact copy of the previous one. For acoustically produced sound it never is, that's the beauty of nature.

-joachim (sorry to be such a bore, the EE in me had me do this :))

The sine waves that make up the harmonics are periodic, but the harmonic frequencies are not simple multiples of each other. This prevents you from replicating piano sound with a simple repeated frame (i.e. looping). Acoustic pianos are most certainly not looped.

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