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Roland V-Piano sound #1683361
05/23/11 09:46 PM
05/23/11 09:46 PM
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Indiana
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Bech Offline OP
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I've just been listening to V-Piano demos on YouTube and I'm not impressed. I should say I am impressed but not in terms of it truly sounding like a real acoustic piano. Especially dislike what I'm hearing on the higher keys.

I am going to give it a real test in the near future. I may be able to live with it due to it's versatility and good sounds. Too, I may find during the real, live test it sounds better than what I'm hearing on YouTube.

Bech


Music. One of man's greatest inventions. And...for me, the piano expresses it best.
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Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: Bech] #1683385
05/23/11 10:34 PM
05/23/11 10:34 PM
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pv88 Offline
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Hi Bech,

I think that you will find that the piano sounds better in person as compared with any video you might be able to watch, as I have already seen all of those YouTube videos, also. The videos will never sound like a piano does, "live."

Just be sure to take a good pair of headphones with you since that will be the best way to hear and judge the sounds, since the speakers / monitors in the store are going to invariably be different from the ones you might end up buying yourself, if you do. And, even if you bought the same exact speakers the store has, your room (i.e., where you place the V-Piano) is going to be ultimately different when compared with the store acoustics, and so forth. Keep this in mind if you are listening to the V-Piano over a store setup.

Headphones (at least initially) should give you a better impression of the instrument.

pv88

Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: Bech] #1683415
05/23/11 11:40 PM
05/23/11 11:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,524
Nashville, Tennessee
PianoZac Offline
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I have to say, the V-Piano Grand, or V-Grand, demos sound quite good. Much better than many of the V-Piano demos. I think the one thing that is really remarkable about the V-Piano/Grand is how the instrument behaves when played and how realistic the decay and releases are. I'd love to get my hands on the V-Grand and AvantGrand N3 side by side. cool


Kawai MP7SE
Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: PianoZac] #1683478
05/24/11 12:59 AM
05/24/11 12:59 AM
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pv88 Offline
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Hi Zach,

I also would like to hear of a side by side comparison with Roland V-Piano / AvantGrand N3, should a store happen to have both of them available at the same time. I agree that the natural (and longer lasting) decay is probably one of the "V's" best features, as no other sampled digitals have it.

I wonder what Dave (i.e., Dave Horne) thinks of comparing the two, as he already owns a nice AvantGrand N3, although I think Dave said he tried a V-Piano not too long ago and I forget now what he said about it, although maybe I can find his earlier post to clarify his thoughts on that. I just now found his comments, here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...a%20Avantgrand%20%20v/s%20%20Roland.html

All other comments are welcome, of course.

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Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: Bech] #1683547
05/24/11 04:18 AM
05/24/11 04:18 AM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 221
Leiden, The Netherlands
WingNL Offline
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I've one since recently. last wednesday to be exact.

I love the piano, especially it feels much more realistic then sampled piano's because the sound behaves according you playing. The actual piano sound itself you can say something about.

Some presets (only working on presets at the moment first) are awesome, others sound really fake.

The Vanguard piano's suppose to sound fake, since they aren't real wink. I personally love the mellow pianos alot, but presets like "glass piano" sound aweful.
Aside,.. what really surpriced me, but actually thinking about it .. not so much.. is the horrible midtones from my speakers. Piano can be hard to amplify. As well, it is modelling, meaning it is synthesized. And we know the freq range...
so you need some pretty good sound givers for it to make it sound good. Especially headphones, but headphones..have its disadvantages as well...

It's hard to give a proper opinion at the moment yet, since i haven't really tested much speakers. Currently, I am playing it on a tannoy reveal set with an alesis ra150 amp, which are one of the cheapest sets.. but money ran out wink...still gotta finish payment on the V.

I've been hearing them on... samson monitors i think (not entirely sure) cheapest model, but they sound much nicer.

So far, it's all i can tell.


Roland V-Piano, Many synths, Accordeon, Hurdy Gurdy & Mandolin.
Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: pv88] #1683568
05/24/11 07:06 AM
05/24/11 07:06 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,425
Vught, The Netherlands
Dave Horne Offline
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Originally Posted by pv88
Hi Zach,

I also would like to hear of a side by side comparison with Roland V-Piano / AvantGrand N3, should a store happen to have both of them available at the same time. I agree that the natural (and longer lasting) decay is probably one of the "V's" best features, as no other sampled digitals have it.

I wonder what Dave (i.e., Dave Horne) thinks of comparing the two, as he already owns a nice AvantGrand N3, although I think Dave said he tried a V-Piano not too long ago and I forget now what he said about it, although maybe I can find his earlier post to clarify his thoughts on that. I just now found his comments, here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...a%20Avantgrand%20%20v/s%20%20Roland.html

All other comments are welcome, of course.


I was in Haarlem this weekend and as I was walking to the train station passed a music store. I of course had to enter and played the V Piano again. Even if the V Piano had a better sound than the N3, I still wouldn't consider buying it since my first criterion is a real grand piano action. I talked with the owner (or the owner's father) about the V Piano and he said it wasn't selling.

I look at it as a very elaborate one trick pony. I mean, after you tweak and tweak and tweak, it's still a piano. Once you get the sound you want, then what? You've paid for all the modeling software and you're going to keep on tweaking it? On most other keyboards you have the option of more sounds. Even the N3 (and N1 and N2) give you an excellent Rhodes. For the price they are asking I can understand why they are not selling well.

It's a great idea, it just should have been packaged differently.


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: Bech] #1683596
05/24/11 08:07 AM
05/24/11 08:07 AM
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bennevis Offline
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I think that's where disappointment amoung purchasers came from - they're from a DP background and expect a lot more bells & whistles for their money rather than just a piano substitute. Roland made it clear what they intended the V-Piano to be - the best playability and the closest to the response you'd get to an acoustic grand. But it looks like most people just want fun stuff to play around with when they buy a DP.

If I'd started out (learning and playing) on a DP, I'd likely be disappointed with the V-Piano too. But my priorities are totally different - I want a piano substitute that I can play with headphones, pure & simple. To date, I still haven't learnt (nor bothered to learn....) how to record myself or use any of the stuff on it which isn't directly related to playing a piano.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: Bech] #1683614
05/24/11 08:48 AM
05/24/11 08:48 AM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 221
Leiden, The Netherlands
WingNL Offline
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Leiden, The Netherlands
I can understand Dave,
I have an ex demo model of a shop because it didn't sell, heck people even werent interested to play for.
Ik putting my hop eon some updates..but who know.. if it comes or not. Still.. I am very happy with it..especially for learning, i find it great.. maybe i haven't had the most amazing piano's under my fingers, but as far as I am concerned, i'm happy with it,.. i guess it counts most for when you actually bought one smile.

I think it's a common sight that people are quite dissapointed with it, especially with the metallic/colder sound on most of the presets (imho, the less usable ones too)


Roland V-Piano, Many synths, Accordeon, Hurdy Gurdy & Mandolin.
Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: Bech] #1683739
05/24/11 12:57 PM
05/24/11 12:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,524
Nashville, Tennessee
PianoZac Offline
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I actually find that when I play the V-Piano, I'm able to play more expressively than on most of the grands I play on, since most of the grands I play on are in [censored] poor shape for the most part-Yamahas that haven't well maintained. If I had the money/space to buy either the V-Grand or a comparably priced acoustic new, I'd take the Kawai RX-2/3 over the V-Grand. However, I'd take the V-Piano/V-Grand over any of the grands I play on at my gigs. For some reason the V-Piano, even though it shares the PHA III Ivory Feel w/ Escapement like many other pianos in Roland's lineup, is the one that feels most like an acoustic. NOt just in how the sound is produced, but in how it feels. It feels like an acoustic grand. Pretty remarkable.


Kawai MP7SE
Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: PianoZac] #1683833
05/24/11 05:12 PM
05/24/11 05:12 PM
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pv88 Offline
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Hi, everyone above:

It looks as if there are a lot of different opinions regarding the V-Piano, as it is okay to either like or dislike particular features with this piano. I will be buying one as I want to have acoustic concert grand piano sounds only, and it should be very convenient to be able change many of those features.

It very well serves the purpose for all pianists wanting authentic piano sounds, and, natural piano-like decay, etc.



Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: Bech] #1684106
05/25/11 04:26 AM
05/25/11 04:26 AM
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jve Offline
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Hi,

I originally wrote this for the V-Piano negatives / positives threads that ran a month back, but never found the time to post:


V-Piano positives:

+ The concept itself - a piano modelling "synthesizer" that offers variability beyond that of the traditional sample-based DP, and isn't restricted to just imitative sounds. Some day all DPs will be based on this concept.

+ Hopefully spawns further research in the field of piano modelling.

+ Excellent playability - player-sound connection and response is (still) among the best.

+ Excellent build quality, top notch hardware, XLR outputs, etc.

+ Easily interfaced to a laptop for graphical sound editing.


V-Piano negatives:

- Variability isn't that great. For instance, the basic tone (whether Vintage or Vanguard) still has that Fazioli-like reedy hollowness that Roland seems so fond of, and tweaking the parameters does not help. Forget about trying to make it sound like e.g. a Steinway. Also, there's no way to directly affect basic things like envelope shapes.

- The unusual Silver String model is impressive, but a lot of the characteristic treble brittleness is too evident in the other models as well.

- Lack of real-life randomness and warmth. Modelled pianos have a tendency to sound too "parameterized", and the V-Piano is no exception. Specifically, each note seems to be a perfect copy of its adjacent notes, with only a few adjusted modelling parameters. On a real piano there's much more uneven-ness and randomness due to material and manufacturing tolerances, wear, etc. As an analogy, while sampled pianos often suffer from sample stretching artifacts, modelled pianos tend to suffer from what I call "audible parameter stretching".

- The PHA-III action is very good, but not as good as a real grand action (e.g. Avant Grand).

- A "work in progress". I believe this is only the beginning of things to come.


cheers,
-joachim

Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: jve] #1684134
05/25/11 06:34 AM
05/25/11 06:34 AM
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bennevis Offline
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Originally Posted by jve
Hi,

I originally wrote this for the V-Piano negatives / positives threads that ran a month back, but never found the time to post:




V-Piano negatives:



- Lack of real-life randomness and warmth. Modelled pianos have a tendency to sound too "parameterized", and the V-Piano is no exception. Specifically, each note seems to be a perfect copy of its adjacent notes, with only a few adjusted modelling parameters. On a real piano there's much more uneven-ness and randomness due to material and manufacturing tolerances, wear, etc. As an analogy, while sampled pianos often suffer from sample stretching artifacts, modelled pianos tend to suffer from what I call "audible parameter stretching".




cheers,
-joachim


I mentioned this in previous posts, but I agree that the V-Piano's sound is too 'perfect' (in terms of tuning and evenness) in its raw state. In the past week, I had the opportunity to play on Steinways, Essexs and Bostons which have been prepared for performance (Steve Reich's Six Pianos and James Hesford's Citerna for 12 pianos if you're interested) and immediately noticed how individual notes on all the pianos aren't perfectly in tune (with themselves and with adjacent pianos) - something I'd never have noticed if I hadn't been playing on the V-Piano.

It's quite easy to detune individual strings on the V-Piano to your liking, something I may well get around to doing when/if I get fed up with its perfect sound......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: Bech] #1684135
05/25/11 06:36 AM
05/25/11 06:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,830
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Does the V-Piano have a 'randomise' function? Perhaps allowing the individual settings to have an upper and low range, then subtly randomise parameters (during playing?) so as to ensure that the piano never sounds too 'perfect'.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: Bech] #1684136
05/25/11 06:41 AM
05/25/11 06:41 AM
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bennevis Offline
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No, it doesn't - you have to use elbow grease to get what you want.... grin

You can detune whole groups of notes in one go, but they will all be 'perfectly detuned' with each other. Or detune the whole keyboard.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: Bech] #1684140
05/25/11 06:46 AM
05/25/11 06:46 AM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Ah, I think I recall reading a post here from a clever chap who had programmed a tool to create random V-Piano settings files. Perhaps that's what I was thinking of.

Either way, given the complexity of the V-Piano, I'm surprised Roland haven't implemented some randomisation functions that add imperfections to the instrument's sterile sound.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: Kawai James] #1684158
05/25/11 07:31 AM
05/25/11 07:31 AM
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Posts: 221
Leiden, The Netherlands
WingNL Offline
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I once pointed them already on this, but it's slow since they have to go through Japan in order to make decisions. I think their 'social' communications is very strict (knowing japanese companies acitons regarding this..., dunno how it is for kawai? smile @kawaijames )

I believe they getting a lot of returns on it. Even though with much promotion, it doesn't run off the shelves yet. I hope they see it themselves and implement some more software updates. The Evolution update did some extra regarding nice pianos sounds, but
the actual 'problems' aren't solved. Since it's a modelling piano, and it has a good potential updatable software, I hope they implement some new futures over time. Like Nord does...

Unfortunately, looking at big companies, like Sony, they can be quite slow with it...

we're going to see..

Even though,.. i love my V, it enables me to play mcuh better, learn faster and enjoy more.. which is in the end where i went for =)


Roland V-Piano, Many synths, Accordeon, Hurdy Gurdy & Mandolin.
Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: WingNL] #1684210
05/25/11 09:24 AM
05/25/11 09:24 AM
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A "randomize" feature sounds like a useful thing, but I would like to have it affect more than just detuning. I feel the tonal character of adjacent notes needs to be controlled somehow too - for instance how the decay rate of different harmonics or formants relate to each other, and stuff like that.

Originally Posted by WingNL
Even though,.. i love my V, it enables me to play mcuh better, learn faster and enjoy more.. which is in the end where i went for =)


That's the only thing that matters in the end. Congrats on your purchase!

-joachim

Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: jve] #1684745
05/26/11 02:57 AM
05/26/11 02:57 AM
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@ joachim,

I agree with your thoughts here, completely. And, it is still is the best piano around, no doubt.

Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: Bech] #1684764
05/26/11 04:26 AM
05/26/11 04:26 AM
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I was suprised when I heard this morning from the local Roland dealership that since the launch of the V-piano (A couple of years now I guess) they have only sold 1 instrument. I am guessing that this may be because it's not really a practical gigging instrument but more geared towards studio or home use where it can live for considerable periods of time without being moved. I think also that alot of people may not have ears so refined as to appreciate the subtle variation of colour and tone produced by the instrument. I am not sure if Roland had initailly targetted a such a niche sector of the market...

Re: Roland V-Piano sound [Re: Bech] #1684770
05/26/11 04:50 AM
05/26/11 04:50 AM
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Vught, The Netherlands
Dave Horne Offline
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I was suprised when I heard this morning from the local Roland dealership that since the launch of the V-piano (A couple of years now I guess) they have only sold 1 instrument.

I'm not.


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
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