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I need advice on a situation I seem to have gotten myself into. I recently purchased a Baldwin Grand Piano that was described as “6’3 and from around 1940.” The cost was $3,100. I checked the piano out and new that it needed work, but had a rich, bold sound. The body appeared dull and worn, as it had apparently been used in a number of jazz festivals, so it was moved around a lot. I then had a technician I found on the Technician’s Guild Website come in to check it out prior to the purchase. I told him I knew the piano needed work and that I wanted to know his opinion on how good the basic piano was, what work he thought it would need and whether it was worth purchasing the piano and putting the money into it. I also told him I could not find the serial number to verify the year of the piano. The tech checked it out. He couldn’t find the serial number either, but felt that it was a good instrument with potential and that if I put approximate $15,000 to $18,000 into it (which included new action, re-stringing, and a refinishing), I would probably be able to get my money out of it, should I decide to sell it. He said from the look of the piano, he thought it probably was from around 1940. So I bought the piano.
When I got the piano home, the professional piano mover remarked that it was not 6’3”, but rather 6’5,” which I thought was curious. He couldn’t find the serial number either.
Since my technician advised that the first thing he would do is replace the action (if I didn’t have the money to do it all at once), I called in another technician just to get a comparative price. Apparently this new guy knew his stuff. He was immediately struck by the tail end of the piano. When he took out the keyboard to inspect the piano, the found the serial number and apparently, the piano was originally built before 1900. It had been rebuilt, according to an indication under the keyboard, in 1939. The new tech also said that some action work had been done probably in the 1980’s. The ivory keys had been replaced by plastic ones. But what I found especially disconcerting was his opinion that I would never get my money out of this piano. He felt if I spent $15,000 to rebuild it, it would probably only be worth around the same $3000 I paid for it. He suggested I try to sell it, because it wasn’t even worth putting a new action into it. I asked him if he wanted to buy it from me just to make sure he wasn’t downgrading it in order to get a piano cheaply, and he said “No.”
So my question is this: what do I do now? Do I sell the piano immediately without doing a thing to it and hope to get my $3100 back? If I do, how do I advertise/position it, since verifying the serial number requires taking out the keyboard and since it was built pre-1900, but rebuilt in 1939 and then had action work done probably in the 1980’s? Do I get a third opinion? Do I put money into it (perhaps, at least, a new action)? The piano plays just O.K. Do I call the original owner and tell him what I found an try to get my money back. Do I call the original technician and tell him my disappointment in his evaluation? You guys are technicians, what do you recommend?

Is there a letter cast into the plate, if so, what is it?

There is no letter that I can find cast onto the plate, but Baldwin is definitely cast in the plate

With the little experience that I have, this is what I've found:

There's a big difference between how much a private owner can sell a piano for and how much someone in the business can sell it for, even working independently.

The major expenses in rebuilding a piano are replacing the soundboard, replacing the pin block, and refinishing. For a piano even rebuilt in the 1930's, I would expect all of those to be needed to be able to sell the piano for more than a few thousand, unless the piano was in unusually pristine condition. I would be surprised if you make your money back after putting and additional $15,000 into it.

About sellers: I responded to a craigslist posting for an older model of an excellent piano that the owner had left in a relative's house because he had moved. He was a pianist and said the piano was rebuilt by the previous owner a couple of years ago - said it was in excellent condition. I and a friend looked it over and discovered many disturbing cracks in the soundboard and a crack on the underside of the pinblock. We told him about these - he said he was surprised, said they hadn't been there a year ago. We passed. Weeks later, I saw that he reposted the ad - for a piano in pristine condition.

I'd encourage you to be honest if selling this piano - take a picture of the serial number so everyone won't ask to take it apart, accept a little loss in your investment, and buy a piano that you have good feelings about.

As a rebuilder and somebody who often does appraisals for people needing to purchase or sell an instrument, I'd be very careful buying anything as a project piano.

I'm sorry you got bad advice...since you are dealing with a member of the Technicians "Guild" (I assume you mean the Piano Technician's Guild), I'd suggest calling the local chapter and asking for some input. I doubt anybody intentionally misled you, but at minimum the local industry should learn what you've encountered.

My guess is that your tech was hoping to sell you a restoration job, and felt confident that you'd be happy with the end result. As far as getting your money or more out of a rebuilding, THAT was a little bit of a stretch. I tell everybody who will listen that if we restore their piano, they MAY get something close to restoration price should they try to sell it, but that the project is in NO WAY a plan to make money.

Hope some of that helps. I'd make that call to your local PTG chapter and ask for guidance.

Good luck...

RPD

What Rick said.... Along with - get rid of that tech. Unfortunately, not every human being is honest or good in any business....

You liked the sound of the piano, even as it is. You probably felt the case was not so bad you could not live with it. If it was being used in concert before you got it, there must have been other people who liked it.

If you like the sound, then there is nothing wrong with the soundboard. The strings may not even be so bad, if the piano has been reworked. The action may or may not be bad.

The date of the piano is iffy, at best. Post some photos, and we may be able to pin it closer, but if there is no serial number easily visible on a Baldwin, it is going to be a guess at best.

In any case, it sounds like you have a good piano that could be made better with the right person working on it. It also sounds like you have not found that person.

From what you say, I suspect that you could get a pretty good piano out of it for under $12,000, say about $4000 each for refinishing, action work, and restringing. Npw maybe you would not be able to get $15,000 for the piano after that is done. Maybe it would not be as good as if someone did more work on it, but from my experience, the quality of the workmanship is more important than the quantity. In any case, if you can find the right person, you would be hard pressed to get as good a piano for $15,000.

I wasn't buying it to make money, but I did want to know that if I put money into it, would I be able to get the money back out if and when I decided to sell it. I wanted to know if it was worth investing in this piano. But the issue now is what do I do? Do I sell it? just replace the action? And if I sell it, how do I position it considering it was apparently originally built before 1900, then re-built in 1939 and then had action work done in 1980-ish. I don't want to cheat a perspective buyer, but I do want to make it sellable.

A pre 1900 grand would have significant cosmetic differences than a WWII era one. Pre 1900 would be very Victorian design. Are you positive it's that old?

Can anyone tell me how I upload pictures? I would like to let you see what it looks like.

Click here to get to the upload page. Follow the instructions to upload your picture. When you get the email with the address of the photo, use the Full Reply Screen to imbed the picture. Use the fourth button from the left.

Here are pictures of the piano. I hope I uploaded them correctly. Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

It looks nice. It looks later than 1890s, possibly 1910 to 1920 or so. If it were mine, I would probably get it tuned and regulated, and then play it for 10 or 20 years, and then decide what to do with it. I think you did fine!

I agree with BDB here.
That's a nice looking piano. I actually think you did well.
Even if you spend the $15000 rebuilding it it will be a great piano for that price.
Very few of us manage to sell a piano for what we bought it for or put into it. And if you buy new the depreciation will be a killer when you try to sell. You'll certainly do a lot better financially than if you bought a new one.

Rather than asking whether you can get your money out, I'd like to suggest a slightly different tack:

1) For me, the key question is this: can the piano deliver (in terms of sound, touch and looks) what you expect from it over the next few years?
2) If yes, you did extremely well; you can congratulate yourself and stop reading here.
3) If no, consult a tech/rebuilder whom you trust (word of mouth recommendation?) to identify the changes/adjustments/repairs that need to be made.
4) Get a price-tag on those changes/adjustments/repairs.
5) Add to this price-tag the $3,100 that you've already paid, and get a total price-tag, "X".
6) Shop around for a few weeks. Have a look at other pianos in the "X" price range. Hear, feel and see, and make a judgement call whether they can deliver on your expectations better than your repaired Baldwin could.
7) If they can't, keep your Baldwin and have the repairs done.
8) If they can, sell your Baldwin for the best price you can get, cut your losses, if any, and move on.

It's about you as a satisfied pianist, not about you as a money-loser or money-maker.

My $0.02...

Nice Piano! I think you got alot of piano for the money you spent! From what I could see in the pics, I think you should get it cleaned, tuned and regulated and you should have nice piano. And the piano definitely has good potential for rebuilding in future.

I'm gonna say '20s or so. Art Deco era.

I agree with most of the other wisdom that has been shared here about resale pricing. One additional consideration is that if you have the piano rebuilt properly and decide to trade it on something in the future, you might get more for it than selling it yourself. Others currently in retail can chime in here, but that would have been my inclination when I was retailing.

Looks like a great piano!

Looks like a full perimeter plate.

Very long back scale in the bass and longer that usual on the tenor bridge.

I would be interested in hearing how this piano sounds.

It has the potential to be an interesting sounding piano.

how does it sound? an 6.5" Baldwins is nothing to sneeze at.

it looks absolutely lovely. I know it is old but.....

All of you are terrific and I got some great feedback. Thank you. I guess my real dilemma is how to find a good, reliable tech to help me determine if this is a piano worth putting money into. I am getting two different opinions -- one that says put the moeny into it. It's a great instrument. The other says, if I put in $15,000, it will still be worth $3,000, which is a huge loss should I ever need to sell. So how I find a reliable tech in the Los Angeles area to give me a good evaluation?

I think you made a great deal. Like Mr Buck said, full perimeter plate and long back scales, I would like to hear this piano. Take closer pictures if you could of hitch pins, close ups, everything and of the action if possible? BDB and others have given you excellent advice.

BDB "If it were mine, I would probably get it tuned and regulated, and then play it for 10 or 20 years, and then decide what to do with it. I think you did fine!"

welllll, I happen to love Baldwins. But some of the older ones only have 3 ply pin blocks, so I guess that would be something to look at. The photos are pretty but that does not share sound. You need a good tech to evaluate this piano. SM

Nice piano! I bet that thing would sound and play great when tuned, voiced/regulated. I really don't think that is a pre-1900 piano, judging from the cabinet. Regardless, I think you have a nice piano there for what you paid for it.

Here are some shots of hte interior. I think it will need re-stringing before too long. That is why I figured new action (the current plays somewhat sluggishly and heavy), refinish and re-stringing and we are talking about $15,000.

So can anyone out there recommend a reliable, knowledgeable technician in the Los Angeles area? Obviously by going through the Piano Technicians Guild I got two completely opposite opinions. I need a tie breaker. The second guy said regulating wouldn't help. He said to replace the action. I guess I need a good tie-breaker!

no, but the pins are rusted, and are strings, based on photo, so it has not been restrung, strings are close to plate, no room to drive...plate has not been refurbished... pin block does not appear to have been treated.... dampers may have been replaced... just looking at photos. With an older Baldwin you may have the 3 ply pin block.

I am also guessing that it is not pre 1900, maybe 20's or 30's. Still curious if it is a model C instead of the later L (which was similar/same size). For my own curiosity, can you look on the plate again for a letter cast in plate? Perhaps on the very far left/ bass side of plate at farthest point from the keyboard?

Hard to tell from those pics, but the dampers look like they've been replaced? How are the hammers (can you get a pic of them)?

I would agree with the other posters that suggested getting it tuned, cleaned up and maybe some regulation. Then play and enjoy it and see how tuning holds.

Seems like a lot of piano for a fairly modest purchase price.

So what are you suggesting? DO i have the piano refurbished or is it not worth it. Do I just try to re-sell it?

I'm not sure who you are asking, but will reply. The piano is pretty, cabinet is good. Depends on what you need for a piano. If you want it to be better you probably need to do a rebuild, that may include new pin block, and of course restringing. Don't know about the action, but I would make it right if you go to that effort. I love Baldwins, what are the hitch pins like at bridge? Typically they are rounded, that enhances ability to hold. Excellent pianos, L Baldwin I prefer to most Steinways. SM

Judge strings by how they sound, not by how they look. When they start breaking, or sound old (tubby in the bass, overly bright in the treble, the latter being difficult for a layperson to discern), then you restring it. Strings can usually go about 50 years before restringing makes a big difference, unless they have been played so much that they are breaking from fatigue.

I would never recommend replacing an action unless it has been regulated. You do not know what it feels like until it has been regulated. I can do enough regulating to get a good feel for it in a day's work, usually with enough time for tuning as well.

I agree.

You keep coming back to the question of "should I put money into it or not?", so I will give you the answer you seem to be seeking. Yes, if you spend that money solely to improve the piano's performance for your own enjoyment....start with a great regulation and tuning/voicing. DO NOT replace the action parts until you see how it will play with a great regulation. DO NOT spend the money if your concern is to recoup it by selling the instrument at some point. Find a good piano tech by going to a local University's Music Department and speaking with the tech that services their concert instruments. If he/she won't work on your piano, they will know someone good that can. Does that address all your concerns?

I cannot recommend anyone more highly that David Anderson. Here's his website - at least go talk to him; he's a guru.
www.davidandersenpianos.com/

I'm calling shenanigans! This is not a Baldwin, but rather a forgery. Baldwin, while founded in 1862, did not build its first upright until 1891, and it wasn't until 1895 that it built grands. My own Baldwin is a 1901 model C, which is 6'3" and it looks nothing like this piano in terms of plate design (Baldwin did not have a full-perimeter plate, and the plate holes are completely different... nowhere near that big); these are characteristic of Baldwin plate design from when mine was built and mid-century:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Mediterranean-Style-Baldwin-Grand-Piano-/250628495269.

http://www.dcpianos.com/html/grand-above-10000/baldwin-grand-model-c-in-mahogany/



The case design and styling is different, too.


So, there are two options here. I'm either wrong, or this is a forgery. I don't think I'm wrong, though, because of the serial number (If it's pre 1900 according to the serial number, Baldwin would have had to completely redesign the piano between 1895 and 1900, which is unlikely to have happened), and the fact that this looks nothing like any other Baldwin I've ever seen. Not to mention, there have been threads on PW in the past about forgeries.

I have seen Baldwins with that case design. But even if it is a forgery, what of it? You play the piano, not the name on it.

You don't give any good reason to believe this isn't a Baldwin. Piano designers were experimenting around 1890-1910 more than at most times in piano making history. So it could have been an early model. The fact that the name is cast into the plate is strong evidence that it's a Baldwin.

As far as the styling, it's true that many pre-1900 pianos had fancy styling, but I don't think all of them did. Some of the features look to be old: look at the curved ornamentation on the cheek near the keyboard, for example. Also, the tail is clearly not 'wide'. It looks like a Steinway O.

The long back scale is also a transitional feature. Grands in the 1870s and 1880s had often very long (longer than pictured) back scales.

The front duplex looks odd, almost as if it was added later.

The large holes in the plate remind me of a viennese grand (Lambert Kreuter) that I saw from around 1900. The music desk looks like a Steinway. It's likely that Baldwin hadn't yet developed their trademark look by the time the piano was built. It's a really interesting find.

I disagree.




I think it would be illogical, and unlikely, for a company that rolled out its first grand piano in 1895 to completely redesign its model by 1900. Little things? Maybe. But completely redesigning the plate?! No way.



Not necessarily:

"The name plate seemingly cast on to the plate is easy. I would guess it was made of plaster via an epoxy or polyester mold taken from the real thing. For someone skilled in the art it's a job taking up a couple of hours, tops. Once fabricated it's glued on and faired-in with body putty. Basic foundry work." ~Del Fandrich, 02/05/2005


While we're talking about the plate, The one pictured by the OP looks to have very clean casting work, which I think was a weak spot for Baldwin until the 1970s.

Here's a thread about a forged Steinway D (Del's quote from above can be found on page 5):

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/281893/1.html

A thread about the history of Baldwin grand models:

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...1/topic/024652/Number/0/site_id/1#import



Certainly is.


So yeah, until Del says otherwise, I'm convinced this is NOT a Baldwin.

Interesting. I have not, and I've seen my fair share of Baldwins.



Well for one, if the OP sells it, he'd probably want to be honest about it. And two, the OP is concerned about value, and the Baldwin name still has more value than whatever this piano probably was.

I take your points. Since my last post, I did some research and thinking, and I agree that it's suspicious. Your quote and links underline the reasons to be suspicious.

This evening, I was just speaking to Bill Shull about another subject and mentioned this piano.

Bill Shull is close enough to LA that he could be brought in easily.

As many know, Bill in addition to being a top technician, is a researcher and lecturer of historical pianos.

You can see Bills Website Period Piano Center
Bill's email is
bdshull@aol.com

I think this is a 50s or so Baldwin, if you have full serial number, we can look it up... EZ. It probably has the 3 ply pin block and depending on whether it holds tune or no, could use a rebuild. Pin block and strings.... dunno... for me that would be a close call. Does not have the structural integrity of later Baldwins. The 70s were and are quite excellent. SM

Gee, now you guys are scaring me at the thought that this might not even be an authentic Baldwin. The only additional information I can give is that when the technician removed the block surrounding the keyboard (I don';t know what it is called), we found the number 08914 etched into the side, leading us to believe that this number is probably the serial number. When I looked up Baldwin serial numbers, it would place the piano between 1890 and 1900. Otherwise, there is defnitely no other number to be found on the piano and there is definitely no letter anywhere on the plate.

What you have is a really pretty nice looking piano that is 100 years old, give or take a decade. It's longer than a large majority of grands to be had in that price range, and it looks to have been well built -- it has the thicker outer rim that is characteristic only of the pianos that manufacturers invested more effort into. The plate is also not sloppy and shows some care.

I would not worry too much about whether it is a Baldwin. As BDB says, it's the piano you play and not the brand. Also, this is, on anyone's estimation, a piece of history, and if it was a good non-Baldwin piano that was deceptively re-branded at some point, you could consider that to be an interesting part of the history of the piano. It would be different if it were a junky Wurlitzer that had gotten a Baldwin logo slapped on it.

It looks like the bass bridge has no cantilever. That's also mostly an older feature that would make the piano transitional. This kind of bridge has been resurrected recently at least by Del Fandrich due to the belief of many that the tone it produces is superior. The full perimeter plate is another unusual feature which makes this piano attractive and potentially tonally interesting. It's also been introduced recently on at least Mason and Hamlin pianos. If the technician you find says that it can be tuned and regulated, I would invest that money right off, and see whether you like the result.

OK, I decided to take Larry Buck's aadvice and send the pictures to Bill Shull, the piano historian, for his input. This is what he wrote back:

Dear Mike,

This is a very interesting piano.

Many years ago I might have considered it to be a forgery (I've seen plenty of Baldwin forgeries), but I've been working on early Baldwin studies lately and this piano is of great interest.

My opinion at this point is that this is an early Baldwin grand, and that it has historical significance.

Also....

I suggest you try to contact Gibson and request the information on your Baldwin grand. It's possible the number is just a case number, or it could be a serial number; either way, their records (which are probably still bundled up in Nashville from their previous Trumann AK home) should yield good information on your piano. I've recently requested access to these serial number books for an academic paper I presented last week, but without success, but the factory manager who closed the plant has since told me that he had all these documents shipped to Nashville, and they are probably still bundled in some storage or archive. Gibson/Baldwin might be encouraged by your interest in getting answers about your potentially historically interesting Baldwin. It's my hope to spend two or three days studying these documents, when Baldwin is ready.

Regards,

Bill

Bill Shull, RPT, M.Mus.

Incidentally, in that thread about the so-called forged Steinway, the biggest bone of contention was the plate, and as I said at the time, the Paderewski Steinway at the Smithsonian, which has impeccable provenance, has the same plate. It is not a forgery. The idea that someone would start with a Mason & Hamlin to forge a Steinway is absurd on the face of it. That is like the old Superman TV show where the dotty scientist transforms $10,000 worth of platinum into $5,000 worth of gold.

If you look at the images below (Paderewski's Steinway):

http://sirismm.si.edu/siahistory/imagedb/76-17811.28.jpg

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/PaderewskiSteinway.jpg

And you compare it to the "Phony Steinway" images in that thread, it is obvious that they do not have the same plate. You will notice that on the Paderewski piano, there are two thermal relief holes in between the first and second struts, treble side, and that these holes have ornamentation. On the Phony Steinway, there is only one thermal relief hole, and it is smooth. It's NOT a Steinway.




It's probably not a M&H. And if it was, maybe it's from the Aeolian era...

You have to come up with photographs of every other Steinway D plate made in that period to begin to show that the piano in question is a fake. To claim that plates vary in minor details is not sufficient.

You're joking, right? Those "vary minor details" would require a different mold, and I highly doubt that Steinway made one special mold to cast one special plate for one Steinway D. That makes no sense. Think about it.

The only reason I'm keeping an open mind about this is because I can't think of a reason why anyone would camouflage a piano as a Baldwin.


Here is some early history of Baldwin, as dictated by Professor William Osborne in Music in Ohio, published by Kent State University Press, 2004. Perhaps it will prove useful to you.

"While Baldwin acted as an agent for firms like Steinway & Sons and the Estey Organ Company, sales restrictions meant that Baldwin could not market certain brands in certain areas, and thus eventually contracted for pianos manufactured in Ripley by the Ohio Valley Piano Company, labeled as, "Expressly Made for D. H. Baldwin & Co." In 1887 Steinway terminated its agreement with Baldwin, provoking discussion about the possibility of Baldwin making its own instruments. Ironically, the first such venture involved the manufacture of Hamilton and Monarch reed organs in 1888 by what was incorporated as the Hamilton Organ Company, located in Chicago. Two years later a decision was made to produce pianos according to the design of John Warren Macy, who since 1883 had made a considerable reputation in Troy and Dayton tuning and maintaining instruments for the company. The first Macy-designed instrument, an upright, was produced in what had been a planing mill on Gilbert Avenue opposite the entrance to Eden Park and shipped to the retail store downtown in late February 1891. Macy became factory superintendent of the Baldwin Piano Company and soon designed a Baldwin grand piano as well as a moderately priced upright, produced beginning in 1893 by a new corporation called the Ellington Piano Company... in a factory on the north side of the city. Baldwin also purchased the Ohio Valley Piano Company and renamed it the Valley Gem Piano Company; it then turned out the company's Valley Gem and Howard brands.... The facility on Gilbert Avenue was expanded in 1895, and four years later operations were consolidated at that location, the expanded plant dedicated only weeks before the founder's death....

Baldwin established itself as a power in its field by winning a Grand Prix at the Paris Exposition of 1900, as well as considerable mention and awards of various sorts for its elaborate exhibition of Ellington pianos and Hamilton reed organs, a display of the materials involved in the creation of a piano, and a factory model, arranged so that the public could trace the entire manufacturing process.... Two additional buildings and a powerhouse were added to the Gilbert Avenue complex in 1902, while the Chicago organ operation moved to a new and larger space the following year...."

I worked on a Steinway O recently.
The plate had NO holes, two wound bichords on the tenor bridge and "A" style bracing.

In documenting Steinway Centennials, the ones I have seen so far have all been different in some way.

The best way to confirm an opinion is to get out and look at the piano in question, taking good notes and photographs.

Alternatively you could find a plate of another make of piano that is identical to what you purport is a fake. That would not be definitive, but it would be better than any "proof" that has been offered so far.

It would be far easier for Steinway to change their patterns, which are sectional, after all, than for someone to fake them. Surely you do not believe that one solid piece of wood is screwed onto a giant faceplate in several places to turn the relief holes, do you?

The cabinet style of this piano is similar to other pianos I've seen dating from the 1910's or so. The piano looks different from other baldwins I've seen, but I'm not too familiar with early Baldwins. This piano does have pin bushings and none of the Baldwins I've worked on has had them. Has anybody seen a Baldwin grand with tuning pin bushings?

I tend to think that Beethoven986 is right. This doesn't look like any Baldwin I've ever seen. It's not just any one feature. There is virtually nothing on the piano that looks Baldwin. Did Baldwin ever use that style of wippen spring, for example?

On the other hand, I did rebuild a 6'3" Baldwin a few years ago that was a very early model. The serial number placed it maybe around 1896 or so. It didn't have the scale cast in the plate. I have seen another like it too. The plate had diamond shaped holes. Some of the features on this piano were of earlier design, such as trapwork where the springs were fashioned out of thinned pieces of wood. So, there are some different one's out there.

This one is either a forgery, or very unique. I would bet on forgery.

I know that I have seen this on an old Baldwin before.

First, I want to thank all of you again for such great input and for responding to my quandry. Just to update you, I had a third opinion from David Anderson who was highly recommended by one of the posters and also came very highly recommended by others I've spoken to. David said the piano is definitely NOT a forgery. He also felt it was a gorgeous instrument musically, although it does need regulating and eventually re-stringing. He felt it was worth investing in and was certain that when restored, it would rival a Steinway A. He was especially impressed with the richness of the sound and the sound board. He felt I got a great deal on this one at $3100. He felt a retailer would clean it up and put it on the market for around $8500, ultimately taking around $5200 for it. He also felt it was originally from around 1910-1920. I feel so much happier now and plan to go ahead with regulating it as my first step. Again, thank you all for your help and sage advice. If any of you are ever int he Los Angeles area and want to see this piano and play it, just let me know.

Thanks for letting us know. You're right, David is an EXCELLENT technician!

This piano is most likely a Baldwin built in the 1895 to 1900 timeframe. Even though many features do not appear particlarly "Victorian", especially the lyre braces, it is most likely the case this piano was built around this period. At this time, the piano industry was, in fact, rapidly modernizing and design characteristics typical of the twentieth century were appearing apace. A new design would almost certainly be intended to be forward looking with the implications for design this implies, and would eschew "Victorian" features simply for commercial reasons.

The only morphological feature of the piano with any similarity to subsequent Baldwin production is the nosebolt with a knurl on the top and flattened to take a wrench on the bottom. Other than this and, perhaps, the length nothing would suggest this piano is a modern type Baldwin.
Baldwin first built a grand piano in 1895 when D H Baldwin hired a local technician in the Cincinati area to design a piano for the company which, at that time, may have already been making uprights. Four years later, in 1899, Baldwin died. As a result of this the company wound up in the hands of Lucien Wulsin who had originally been hired by Baldwin to be a clerk in his music store in the 1860's. Baldwin thought enough of Wulsin to admit him to a partnership in the enterprise in 1873.
Upon Baldwins death Wulsin bought out enough of the other partners to take the company into his own hands. It eventually descended to his son.
Shortly after taking control of the company around the turn of the century Wulsin began a development program. It was under his guidance and tutelage that the great pianos, some of which are the L, the R, and the great concert grand, the SD-6, and others, we associate with Baldwin were developed. I don't know how astute was his understanding of things technical with regard to pianos: He, no doubt, employed technical help to produce these designs. Some, for example the L, may have been outgrowths of the earlier period at Baldwin when Baldwin himself was still alive, and this is probably what the piano under question is. Nevertheless, it was under the control of Wulsin that the instruments that Baldwin is famous for were developed and to him should redown the credit even though they are called Baldwin and not Wulsin.
These Wulsin/Baldwin pianos have a wide reputation and did so when they were introduced which makes it unlikely the piano is a counterfeit. Why would you counterfeit the earliest period of production when by this strategm few would be likely to recognize the product as desirable? A counterfeit would, most likely, be of the subsequent famous productions, particularly after 1904, and not of the early, prototypical pianos developed under DH Baldwin.
It is possible, but extremely unlikely, the piano was introduced later than this period, in the teens and twenties, and then withdrawn for some reason. Were this the case, though, it is a virtual certainty the company would have used the existing suite of technical features developed subsequent to Baldwin's death, that is, hardware, plate design, case, design and numerous other morphological features. The absence of these, except for the nosebolt, renders this possibility untenable and forces the conclusion that the piano was built earlier.
Having said all of this it appears the piano is a solid, well made instrument, probably capable of being an artistic piano. Ironically enough, it probably is, in fact, a TRUE Baldwin and probably, one of the relatively few of the large production of this company ever seen by Baldwin himself.
Regards, Robin Hufford, RPT

As I recall, Baldwin himself was more of a salesman than a technical person. He was also involved with a religious sect, and left his share of the company to them, and Wulsin had to buy them out to save the company.

I suspect that most fakes are pianos that have been mislabeled by some later owner out of ignorance. There are some genuine pianos out there with makers names on the fall board that do not match the makers name on the plate, which I am certain just indicates that manufacturers were indifferent about the design of those pianos. They most likely got a plate or string back from a retiring company, finished the piano and put their name on it and sold it for a quick profit. That, or something similar, was probably the case with the Baldwin with the letters that fell off the plate. I do not think anyone ever tried to fake a name on a high quality instrument. There would just not be any money in it.