Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Hurricane Irma & Our Piano Friends!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Tuning a Piano
How to Tune Pianos
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Schumann's 4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Who's Online Now
75 registered members (Andrei Kuznetsov, ando, amad23, andy250, anotherscott, ArtlessArt, 21 invisible), 1,749 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
#1682235 - 05/21/11 05:54 PM Re: original soundboard recrowning [Re: blaisboards]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16
blaisboards Offline
Junior Member
blaisboards  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16
Mass
Bill: I mispelled (course) I am very tired we moved four large grands today.

(ad 800)
PTG 2017 Convention
PTG Convention 2017 St Louis
#1682274 - 05/21/11 07:32 PM Re: original soundboard recrowning [Re: blaisboards]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 101
Bill McKaig,RPT Offline
Full Member
Bill McKaig,RPT  Offline
Full Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 101
Tampa, FL
I would think that if the panel shrinks 1/4" and then creates a crown after rib installation, then it is functioning similar to a new board.
Do you recap the bridges? I think it would be difficult to set bearing without some form of adjustment for each section of the piano.


Professional Piano Technician serving the Tampa bay area. website: mckaigpianoservice.com
#1682605 - 05/22/11 02:20 PM Re: original soundboard recrowning [Re: blaisboards]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16
blaisboards Offline
Junior Member
blaisboards  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16
Mass
Bill: Of all the ones we have done, only one, has been troublesome. I over did it, and ended up with way too much crown. I should have unglued the ribs again, and corrected this, but that meant repressing, I did not think it would be a problem, but it was serious. I had to set the acoustic dowels as high as possible. And put thick shimming material under the plate nuts,and even under the duplex bars, even with that,it was pretty scary. And I ended up recapping the bass bridge. Yes it was a lesson learned. If the manufacturer did their job correct,the bridges return to their original height,I kid-you-not, honest.This was on an A-3 1902.You know if some is good,then more is better, well not on crown height, that is for sure.How this happened? We are on third floor of an old mill building, when the heat comes on, the humidity drops to below 25%,and with heating the SB, and ribs to 100 degrees+,dropping the moisture content down to about 4%,and it would have been normal,except on this one, I made my press cauld's too deep, pushing them into the "dish" more than the others before this one.Thus ending up with over-crown. The temperature was correct, the moisture content was right, but too much curve.I don't know if any body else does it this way,well anyway, I threw this set of caulding away,about a three dollar loss in material.We use three quarter inch M.D.F. to make these.You see, I don't think this is conventional either?There is no concave "dish", I put more crown from fourth octave up than in the bass. I am familiar with the standard giant, thick, go bar decks.Our pressing equipment is made of steel.And between pressings it just stands in the corner.No go bars. One cauld for each rib,cut on a band saw.After I am done with them, I bundle them up, tape them together, and write on them the piano model, and serial number,and use them again and again. The caulding I made for the cir,1900 M&H we did 2 years ago, was pulled off the shelf,and reused for this 1913 M&H I pressed this past winter.The bridge and the curvature was exactly the same, only not as wide in the bass,It saved me some time in making new ones.Once the caulding is made,say for a B Steinway it can be used over and over.M.D.F.is fantastic in that is cheap and has no grain to deflect the band-saw.It takes about 5 or 6 hours to make these and that is it.

#1682607 - 05/22/11 02:21 PM Re: original soundboard recrowning [Re: blaisboards]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16
blaisboards Offline
Junior Member
blaisboards  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16
Mass
Bill: Of all the ones we have done, only one, has been troublesome. I over did it, and ended up with way too much crown. I should have unglued the ribs again, and corrected this, but that meant repressing, I did not think it would be a problem, but it was serious. I had to set the acoustic dowels as high as possible. And put thick shimming material under the plate nuts,and even under the duplex bars, even with that,it was pretty scary. And I ended up recapping the bass bridge. Yes it was a lesson learned. If the manufacturer did their job correct,the bridges return to their original height,I kid-you-not, honest.This was on an A-3 1902.You know if some is good,then more is better, well not on crown height, that is for sure.How this happened? We are on third floor of an old mill building, when the heat comes on, the humidity drops to below 25%,and with heating the SB, and ribs to 100 degrees+,dropping the moisture content down to about 4%,and it would have been normal,except on this one, I made my press cauld's too deep, pushing them into the "dish" more than the others before this one.Thus ending up with over-crown. The temperature was correct, the moisture content was right, but too much curve.I don't know if any body else does it this way,well anyway, I threw this set of caulding away,about a three dollar loss in material.We use three quarter inch M.D.F. to make these.You see, I don't think this is conventional either?There is no concave "dish", I put more crown from fourth octave up than in the bass. I am familiar with the standard giant, thick, go bar decks.Our pressing equipment is made of steel.And between pressings it just stands in the corner.No go bars. One cauld for each rib,cut on a band saw.After I am done with them, I bundle them up, tape them together, and write on them the piano model, and serial number,and use them again and again. The caulding I made for the cir,1900 M&H we did 2 years ago, was pulled off the shelf,and reused for this 1913 M&H I pressed this past winter.The bridge and the curvature was exactly the same, only not as wide in the bass,It saved me some time in making new ones.Once the caulding is made,say for a B Steinway it can be used over and over.M.D.F.is fantastic in that is cheap and has no grain to deflect the band-saw.It takes about 5 or 6 hours to make these and that is it.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1682651 - 05/22/11 04:25 PM Re: original soundboard recrowning [Re: blaisboards]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16
blaisboards Offline
Junior Member
blaisboards  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16
Mass
Mr. Mckaig.I never touched a computer until last Tuesday,I haven't typed anything since high school, 1971, but I'm learning, and I find it most interesting. I checked out your shop pictures. The question That intrigues me the most is, Why do you make ribs round on top "pre-crowned". And do you do this to Steinways? Is the perimeter glued down at 90 degrees where it meets the rim.? The 1913 M&H I'm doing has a convex board, right to the very edge, all around the perimeter. The node at the bridge is adjusted to compensate for this type of construction.If the manufacturer had used a compression type crown, with the edges glued flat. Thus one of the reasons for rib pairing,do you make the SB to rim jointing angled to the same curve as the roundness of the board.The sweet spot is in a slightly different place,as Chris Robinson demonstrated one time long ago.This is why there is a pulsator bar. And I dont know how to spell pulsator.

#1683096 - 05/23/11 01:27 PM Re: original soundboard recrowning [Re: blaisboards]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 101
Bill McKaig,RPT Offline
Full Member
Bill McKaig,RPT  Offline
Full Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 101
Tampa, FL
I've settled on a hybrid system to build my sound boards. This system uses a combination of arched ribs and compression to form a crown allowing me to dry the board down to 5.9 % instead of 4%. This gives an extra margin safety so that the spruce is less likely to be forced past its elastic limit (crushing force). I feel this gives the board a longer functional life. This hybrid system is not new. It has been used since at least 1900, probably earlier.

I've never found a need to modify the rim ledge. I don't think it helps or hinders the crown of a board. As I said earlier, a crowned board is a self-supported system, it needs a solid rim for a foundation for it to function properly, but the rim does not maintain the crown of the board (as in a buttressed arch).


Professional Piano Technician serving the Tampa bay area. website: mckaigpianoservice.com
#1683226 - 05/23/11 04:47 PM Re: original soundboard recrowning [Re: blaisboards]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16
blaisboards Offline
Junior Member
blaisboards  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16
Mass
Bill, Yes, I have a SB from an old Chickering upright from early 1900,that we junked, this had milled crown ribs. Also a Knabe 7'4" grand 1892, the ribs were two piece,joined horizontally, with the top half milled for the crown,That was very interisting.I kept one of them for show and conversation. And I saw a Chickering 6'8" from early 1900 that had only seven ribs, that was constructed this way also. But Steinway's always seems to be what is considered the standard example worldwide, why didn't they do this?

#1683240 - 05/23/11 05:10 PM Re: original soundboard recrowning [Re: blaisboards]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16
blaisboards Offline
Junior Member
blaisboards  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16
Mass
Forum followers,
We have tried to post some pictures from our last job. Computers seem to take delight in torturing me, and I can't seem to figure out how to post a link. I think...if the URL below is copied and pasted into a browser it might work. Please let me know if it won't.

https://profiles.google.com/105412259108667869462#105412259108667869462/photos

Last edited by blaisboards; 05/23/11 05:18 PM.
#1684226 - 05/25/11 09:46 AM Re: original soundboard recrowning [Re: blaisboards]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16
blaisboards Offline
Junior Member
blaisboards  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16
Mass
Thank you gentleman, for the response to my original question. Yes I've known for a long time that there are some who remove SB's from antique pianos,and reinstall them.The technique is different in that they don't use steam,just water.This would not be practical on most pianos after 1860 or so with wide glue joinery and 3/8 inch SB's.It would take a long time to loosen these glue joints. The ones I do know about are museum property,some are privately owned.And I will be happy to answer any additional questions anyone might have.

#1684435 - 05/25/11 03:29 PM Re: original soundboard recrowning [Re: blaisboards]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 101
Bill McKaig,RPT Offline
Full Member
Bill McKaig,RPT  Offline
Full Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 101
Tampa, FL
Richard,
The work your doing to these pianos looks very nice and clean and I do believe your restoring them back to a functioning piano. But the only advantage that I see of this procedure would be for historical or antique pianos. It really is less work to build a new board. That being said, everyone has their own philosophy about piano rebuilding and if your criteria is to retain as much of the original piano as possible, I think there's a market for that.


Professional Piano Technician serving the Tampa bay area. website: mckaigpianoservice.com
#1685129 - 05/26/11 05:33 PM Re: original soundboard recrowning [Re: blaisboards]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16
blaisboards Offline
Junior Member
blaisboards  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16
Mass
Hi Bill. I guess you will have to hear one,Idon't know how. But, as for time factor. If I had better equipment, it might be as fast.There are no pieces left glued to the rim to chisel out,and no ribs to make,and the moldings are already to glue back in. But faster,faster, is not so important, new wood will probably always be easier.It is the end result,that makes it worth it. They have amazing sonority, like they say, the proof is in the pudding.

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
Trouble with rhythm
by sara elizabeth. 09/26/17 07:53 AM
Observations on my new Roland FP-90
by TripleSharp. 09/26/17 07:09 AM
Which movement contains the snake? - BWV 826 Partita in Cm
by pinkfloydhomer. 09/26/17 06:22 AM
Between Steinberg UR242 and Roland Quad Capture
by stamkorg. 09/26/17 04:15 AM
Perzina and weber pianos
by dat77. 09/26/17 02:53 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics182,024
Posts2,660,162
Members88,889
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0