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Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1653663
04/03/11 11:31 AM
04/03/11 11:31 AM
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Posts: 15,392
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Thanks for the interesting summary.

James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
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Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1653702
04/03/11 12:24 PM
04/03/11 12:24 PM
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Suffolk, United Kingdom
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EssBrace Offline
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Proof that the three main piano voices in the FP are indeed SN voices...which is what I have been saying all along.

I don't know if the observation I'm going to make moves us any closer to what SN actually is but even the (awful) rock piano on FP-7F has a SN decay. If I strike a note and sustain it and listen I hear what sounds like the original piano die quite quickly (in the centre of the stereo field - quite mono-ish actually) and then it almost sounds like the lush stereo SN decay is overlaid, so the decay ends up sounding just like one of the other SN voices (even though the piano is totally different). I think they've invented a way to overlay a nice, natural sounding decay on top of anything (well, any piano). I don't like the rock piano so I haven't listened for audible stretching or velocity layers but the SN decay is perhaps a generic thing now for Roland - maybe they can equip any underlying sample with the same decay. And perhaps it explains why, once the initial attack has gone, they all sound pretty much the same as they decay.

Just wondering anyway!

Thanks for your analysis Dewster.

Steve


Roland RD-1000 | Broadwood Grand Piano
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: EssBrace] #1653707
04/03/11 12:35 PM
04/03/11 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
... it almost sounds like the lush stereo SN decay is overlaid, so the decay ends up sounding just like one of the other SN voices (even though the piano is totally different). I think they've invented a way to overlay a nice, natural sounding decay on top of anything (well, any piano). I don't like the rock piano so I haven't listened for audible stretching or velocity layers but the SN decay is perhaps a generic thing now for Roland - maybe they can equip any underlying sample with the same decay. And perhaps it explains why, once the initial attack has gone, they all sound pretty much the same as they decay.



This is essentially the hypothesis posited by cybergene almost a year ago. Sounds plausible.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1653721
04/03/11 12:55 PM
04/03/11 12:55 PM
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theJourney, have a go on your HP with the Rock Piano...see what you think. The Initial piano just dies and then this rich stereo natural decay takes over.


Roland RD-1000 | Broadwood Grand Piano
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1653771
04/03/11 01:53 PM
04/03/11 01:53 PM
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Like a glockenspiel played through Sky Radio.
Bleccch!

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1653866
04/03/11 05:32 PM
04/03/11 05:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Roland RD-700NX Pianos

In light of the recent finding that there is one SN piano (with three variations) in the Roland FP-7F, I thought I'd post a few analysis pictures of the three SN pianos in the RD-700NX for comparison purposes. To me, they sound quite different from each other, much more so than the three piano voices in the FP-7F. Please note that the NX "Concert Grand" voice is the same as "Grand Piano1" in the FP-7F, and I think most would prefer it to the "Studio Grand" or "Brilliant Grand" voices in the NX, so you probably aren't missing to much with the absence of these other voices in the FP-7F (or HP-30x, or RD-300NX). Still, I will gladly take any and all different piano voices in my DP, particularly if their presence isn't negatively impacting the main voice (due to the limited memory issues that still seem to be plaguing modern DPs).

Anyway, take a gander at these pix with your peepers, peeps:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Figures 1A, B, & C. Spectral pan view of the note C3, normalized to -1 dB to bring out detail, "Concert Grand" @ top, "Studio Grand" @ middle, "Brilliant Grand" @ bottom.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Figures 2A, B, & C. Spectral pan view of the stretch test, normalized to -1 dB to bring out detail, mid notes, "Concert Grand" @ top, "Studio Grand" @ middle, "Brilliant Grand" @ bottom.

Quite a bit of visual (and audible) variation here, there's really no visual match of any sort between the 3 piano voices in the NX. What this implies in terms of how the voices are actually processed and generated I can only guess.

But compare and contrast these to the spectral "fingerprints" of the three FP-7F piano voices in the review above. Even with heavy EQ (or whatever Roland is doing to make the pianos sound different in the FP-7F) the visual correlations strongly indicate a common source for all three FP-7F piano voices.

Last edited by dewster; 04/04/11 10:32 AM. Reason: added: "with three variations"
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1654117
04/04/11 07:05 AM
04/04/11 07:05 AM
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theJourney Offline
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Originally Posted by dewster
Roland RD-700NX Pianos

In light of the recent finding that there is one SN piano in the Roland FP-7F,


Was this supposed to be my cue for saying "esSteve, I told you so"? Because I don't really feel like it. We should focus instead on trying to form a common view of reality.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: theJourney] #1654212
04/04/11 10:23 AM
04/04/11 10:23 AM
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Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by theJourney
Was this supposed to be my cue for saying "esSteve, I told you so"? Because I don't really feel like it. We should focus instead on trying to form a common view of reality.

The gist: FP-7F has one basic SN piano with three (EQ?) variations. Harpsichord is not SN.

So: Those who said there is only one SN piano in there were right. Those who said all three pianos are SN were right. Those who said only the first piano is SN were wrong. Those who said the harpsichord voice is SN were wrong. Those who said the FP-7F main piano is likely inferior to the main NX piano were wrong.

Not that I care all that much about who was right and who was wrong, I'm just after the truth.

I think a lot of this confusion is to be expected due to:
1. The "SuperNATURAL" logo only appearing on the screen of the first FP-7F piano,
2. The harpsichord being included in the FP-7F SN piano bank,
3. Lack of clarity from Roland re. SN in their various DP products.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1654255
04/04/11 11:40 AM
04/04/11 11:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,070
Munich, Germany
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...and probably the not so big audible differences in real live playing between SN and non-SN pianos?
Just a guess...


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1661547
04/16/11 10:21 PM
04/16/11 10:21 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 4
Portland, Oregon
willi Offline
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Although it is perhaps not very realistic to set an acoustic piano patch to this setting, I have rendered the DPBSD2.0 file with the CP-5 CF Grand patch modified to maximum decay settings, as it is my hope that this file may prove interesting or revealing when further analyzing the SCM technology.

http://www.sejus.com/earth2willi/dpbsd/DPBSD_v2.0-Yamaha-CP5-CFGrand-MaxDecay.mp3
This file is the acoustic piano CF Grand preset, modified for maximum decay settings (+16). Reverb disabled.

In an attempt to keep things organized, I've also started another thread for the DPBSD as applied to the CP-80 Electric Grand sound. I would be very interested to hear any thoughts!


Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1665560
04/23/11 09:45 PM
04/23/11 09:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Northern NJ
Sampletekk Seven Seas C7 Review

[Linked Image]

Thanks to Piano World forum member "luisdent" we have a DPBSD sample of Sampletekk's Seven Seas Grand, which is a Yamaha C7 - thanks!

MP3: http://www.mediafire.com/?tj4rpid7f541k10
PIX: http://www.mediafire.com/?w6yl2be1w15y5yy

Sampletekk says this is a "Super detailed multisampled Grand Piano. No less then 93 unique samples per recorded note. Over 4400 samples!" If you do the math, 4400 samples divided by 88 notes gives 50 samples per note, so something has to give in order to produce 93 samples per note. In this instance apparently what gave was in the stretching department, as the 88 notes are represented by 50 stretch groups. If I were constructing this sample set I think I'd use some of those 4400 samples to eliminate stretching, rather than in upping the layer count to herculean levels. Stretch group transitions are fairly audible too, aggravated by rather poor timbre matching between adjacent groups.

Because pedal sympathetic resonance is most likely sampled, it sounds realistic and nice. The samples themselves are refreshingly unlooped, but the low and mid notes could use more sample time as the decays here are somewhat short. As you might expect from so many layer samples, there is no audible layer switching (for middle C at least). Like many PC samplers, it lacks key sympathetic resonance, and it fails all of the key / pedal tests. There are no pedal up/down sound effects, and the note-off sounds oddly like a briefly replayed note, though perhaps this is somewhat adjustable via whatever playback engine one uses for this sample set.

luisdent has this to say about it:

Originally Posted by luisdent
Sampletekk did tell me that the release samples might perform differently in another sample player other than esx24. There are actually two different sample sets with the same samples but a different release configuration. I chose the full configuration. There is a "no release" configuration for esx. I believe the difference might be a better release control over the volume perhaps? I'm not sure. Anyhow, as it doesn't come with a sample player i have no way to test this. Nonetheless, the alternative is no release, which i think sounds worse... Not too bad for an inexpensive sampled piano. Although I prefer the galaxy vintage d over the sampletekk now that's I've tried it. :-)


[Linked Image]
Figure 1. Spectral pan view of the pedal sympathetic resonance test, stimulus removed, normalized to -1dB to increase clarity, pedal down @ left, pedal up @ right. The sound is realistic and pleasant.

[Linked Image]
Figure 2. Waveform view of the entire looping test, vertical zoom applied to see the noise floor. Note decay is fairly short, with a too loud key-off effect.

[Linked Image]
Figure 3. Spectral pan view of the note C3, normalized to -1dB to increase clarity. Fully sampled, no looping.

[Linked Image]
Figure 4. Spectral pan view of the stretch test, mid notes, normalized to -1dB to increase clarity. Given its sheer number of samples, the Seven Seas C7 is surprisingly moderately stretched, with audible stretch group transitions over the low and mid note ranges.

[Linked Image]
Figure 5. Spectral frequency view of the layer test. Timber variation with velocity is uniform and smooth.


-----------------------------------
- Sampletekk Seven Seas Yamaha C7 -
-----------------------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dpbsd_v2.0_sampletekk_seven_seas_c7.mp3
- Logic logic ESX sampler
- Sequenced and recorded by "luisdent".
PROS:
- Passes the pedal sympathetic resonance test, the resonance is very pleasant sounding.
- Not looped, note decays sound very natural (though somewhat short).
- Many layers, no audible layer switches.
CONS:
- Note-off damping is too loud & sounds like a briefly played note.
- Note decay times are rather short in the lower and mid registers.
- Fails the key sympathetic resonance test.
- Fails the silent replay test at pedal-up.
- Fails the quick partial damping test.
- Passes / fails the late pedal partial damping test, pedaling up to 0.125 seconds late works, but there is no obvious damping associated with late pedaling.
- Fails the half pedaling test.
- Stretched, audible over the low and mid range.
- Stretch distances: 1,2,1,2,2,1,2(x3),1,2,2,1,2(x3),1,2,2,1,2(x3),1,2,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,2(x4),1,2,2,3,2,2,1,2,3,2(x3),1 = 50 groups.
- Poor timbre matching between stretch groups.
- No detectable pedal up/down sound effects.
OTHER:
- Notes played @ vel=1 produce sound.
- Dynamic range 41dB (vel=1:127).
- Dampered | undampered transition: F6 | F#6
- MP3 levels: peak @ 0dB, noise floor @ -90dB.
- Date reviewed: 2011-04-16.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1668796
04/29/11 10:15 PM
04/29/11 10:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,838
doremi Offline
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.


I am 'doremi' because I play scales smile
Had I progressed to playing chords,
I would be 'domisol' shocked
Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: doremi] #1668805
04/29/11 10:47 PM
04/29/11 10:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by doremi
I am interested in certain DPs, but this thread is too long to read from the beginning, and the search engine of PW is useless to find out whether a certain DP has been tested or not.

The very first post has a clickable index of everything I've tested to date. Also, all the text reviews are available in a single file at the share point.

Re: The DP BSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1668926
04/30/11 09:11 AM
04/30/11 09:11 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,838
doremi Offline
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I am 'doremi' because I play scales smile
Had I progressed to playing chords,
I would be 'domisol' shocked
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1675239
05/10/11 06:40 PM
05/10/11 06:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Home ownership is an unintentional part-time job...

[Linked Image]
Figure 1. The old kitchen, featuring dewster himself, complete with martini and Ringu face treatment.

[Linked Image]
Figure 2. Mid tear-out. Had to remove the crazy fascia over the cabinets, and tearing off the Formica backsplash damaged the wallboard. Via fancy footwork, I was able to keep the kitchen mostly functional throughout.

[Linked Image]
Figure 3. The new kitchen at casa del dewster. Cabinets are Russian Birch Shaker from www.domaincabinetsdirect.com, floor is Eligna White Brushed Pine Plank Laminate by Quickstep, sink is KOHLER Staccato, faucet is Danze Melrose D409012SS, dishwasher and stove are Maytag, hood is 36" wide BROAN RP236SS.

[Linked Image]
Figure 4. My painting buddy, Maggie. (Were sleeping an Olympic sport, she'd sweep the field hands-down.)

I've been working on our house so much lately (nearing the end of a kitchen renovation, see above) that the DPBSD files to review are starting to back up even more alarmingly than usual.

With all the pictures and such the reviews are taking longer and longer to do - it's reaching the point where it's threatening to cut into my extremely rigid goofing-off schedule. And since I just got a new toy helicopter we can't have that! (Syma S107 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/8499000606 - $22 - it's a total blast!)

So I've decided for now to pare the review posts back to just my text review and any user remarks. Pictures are fun, but I suspect most regulars here have seen enough of them for a while. I'll still post a pic or two if anything super interesting or out-of-the-ordinary crops up. And I'll continue to put the usual set of analysis pix themselves (in a ZIP archive) and MP3s at the share point for those interested.

Last edited by dewster; 05/12/11 01:18 PM. Reason: Extra pix
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1678334
05/15/11 05:27 PM
05/15/11 05:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 298
CA
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10fingers Offline
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Thanks for your unstinting work, Dewster.

Nice job on the kitchen!

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: 10fingers] #1679311
05/17/11 10:47 AM
05/17/11 10:47 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Originally Posted by 10fingers
Thanks for your unstinting work, Dewster.

My pleasure! Unfortunately my DPBSD work (and everything else I'd much rather be doing) has been somewhat stinted due to the kitchen.

Originally Posted by 10fingers
Nice job on the kitchen!

Thanks! I'm coming to the conclusion that I just need to build my own house and do it right in the first place. During the kitchen tear-out I discovered a hair-raising sight: The lower cabinet calculations were apparently off in the plus direction, so they simply cut a hole in the end drywall to accommodate. Ye gods, I thought I'd seen it all in this house until I saw that. And don't even ask about the upstairs toilet.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1679317
05/17/11 10:55 AM
05/17/11 10:55 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
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Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Yamaha DGX-640 Review

[Linked Image]

Thanks to Piano World forum member "Jumajazu" we now have a DPBSD sample of the Yamaha DGX-640! It tests very similarly to P-85/95 and NP-30.

MP3: http://www.mediafire.com/?ddm8can5bgo3j87
PIX: http://www.mediafire.com/?219ylz8vzuy5c5r

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Figures 1A & 1B. Spectral phase view of the stretch test, mid notes, DGX-640 top, P-85 bottom. Pretty much identical looking and sounding, with some slight stretch differences at the extremes.

Originally Posted by Jumajazu
Before buying, I had a selection of several DP below EUR 850 (Casio CDP200R, PX330, PX130, Korg 170, Yamaha P95...) to choose from and I had an experienced painist test them and he really liked the touch and sound of DGX-640. I also liked it a lot in the store. After playing it for some time at home, I am a bit less impressed with the main piano voice, but still absolutely acceptable for my skill level. I also use many other sounds and especially layered voices. In general, I think it is a good instrument for the money, the action is light, but I do not have much trouble switching between this DP and an acoustic grand piano. Mechanically, the action is a bit noisy.


------------------
- Yamaha DGX-640 -
------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dpbsd_v2.0_yamaha_dgx-640.mp3
- This is the first patch: "Live! Grand Piano".
- Setup: Onboard MIDI sequencer => headphone out => Dell Studio 1535 => Adobe Audition trial.
- Recorded by "Jumajazu".
PROS:
- Passes the quick partial damping test.
- Passes the late pedal partial damping test, note decay is caught even after 0.5 seconds.
- Passes the half pedaling test.
- Timbre variation is fairly smooth with increasing velocity.
CONS:
- Fails the pedal sympathetic resonance.
- Fails the key sympathetic resonance test.
- Fails the silent replay test (damps @ pedal up).
- Note decay times are very short.
- Obviously looped, both visibly and audibly over the lows and mids.
- Loop sample lengths are fairly short and audible over the lows and mids.
- Attack sample lengths are (C1:C8): 2.3,2.2,1.6,1.6,1.2,1.1,? seconds.
- Loop sample lengths are (C1:C8): 0.7,0.5,0.5,0.45,?,0.3,? seconds.
- Very stretched, visible over the entire range, audible over lows & mids.
- Stretch distances: 2,3,3,6,3(x23),5 = 28 groups.
- This is most likely a single layer sample set.
- Not a lot of timber variation with velocity in the upper ~1/4 range.
- No obvious pedal up/down or key up "clunk" samples.
OTHER:
- Tests very similarly to P-85/95 and NP-30.
- Dynamic range 49dB (vel=1:127).
- Notes played @ vel=1 produce no sound.
- Dampered | undampered transition: F#6 | G6
- MP3 levels: peak @ -0.5dB, noise floor @ -57dB.
- Date reviewed: 2011-04-24

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1686176
05/28/11 05:26 PM
05/28/11 05:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
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Northern NJ
Adobe Audition FAIL

Yesterday I downloaded a demo of the latest version of Adobe Audition, the CS5.5 edition.

Imagine my shock when I found that Adobe, in their infinite wisdom, had removed the spectral pan and phase views. When did the word "upgrade" come to encompass the downgrading / elimination of central core features? I figured Adobe would ultimately screw up CoolEdit, I just didn't expect it quite this soon.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1686251
05/28/11 07:31 PM
05/28/11 07:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,392
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Are you sure? Perhaps those views have moved to other parts of the interface?
It might be worth emailing Adobe or posting a note on the Audition community forums to clarify the situation.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
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