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Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: dp69] #1652524
04/01/11 12:45 PM
04/01/11 12:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
turandot Offline
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turandot  Offline
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torrance, CA
That's lame, Mike. How do non-industry non-insiders know the stock at the warehouse?

Look, I know that the Bay area is very price competitive, but frankly, it amazes me that 6k is the norm taking into account CA sales tax is 9.75% ,and that the price of $5800 for a fresh sample supposedly includes that sales tax as well as delivery. That 2011 dob doesn't suggest a warehouse bursting at the seams either.

Have a nice weekend. I'll be working on an alabaster pedestal for Kurtmen.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
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Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: turandot] #1652542
04/01/11 01:20 PM
04/01/11 01:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
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Piano Parent Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Here's hoping the OP will rise to the challenge(s)!

Most of you guys seem to be on the West Coast. Wish I could hear some East Coast voices on this.

Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: dp69] #1652558
04/01/11 01:39 PM
04/01/11 01:39 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,906
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Steve Cohen Offline
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Steve Cohen  Offline
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Here's an East Coast voice:

I am privy to the wholesale prices on all makes and models. While I am under a confidentiality agreement as to specific prices, I can say the the deal quoted by the OP, ~$5148 + tax and Delivery is FAR below the prices need by any dealer to stay in business. Even a retailer who IS going out of business would have to sell for more, as pianos do not uncrate themselves, tune themselves and payroll, rent, insurance, etc. continue even during a liquidation.

Giving shoppers unrealistic expectations as to pricing does harm to both the shopper and the industry, as it often leads to the shopper buying a lesser quality piano at a similar price, and casts serious doubts as to the honesty of a legitimate dealership.


Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: Steve Cohen] #1652613
04/01/11 03:16 PM
04/01/11 03:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 27
Pittsburgh Pa
J
Joe Ravita Offline
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Pittsburgh Pa
We are an authorized east coast Yamaha dealer. We have not, cannot and will not sell a U1 anywhere near the price quoted in this thread. We are tech owned and we un-box and prep every piano as well. we have had customers decide to ship from out of state but we feel the service and prep warrant a price that allows us to stay in business. 2 non-Yamaha dealers within one hour of us tried exsist on un-real discounts and have both closed within the past 3 months. I hvae no problem after 35 years in the business working with a customer to get the best fair deal possible, but the price expectations we sometimes get are terribly un-real. Also one person who chose to ship from out of state waited 7 months for the piano.


Joe Ravita
Manager
Modern Piano
Wexford Pa. 15090 (Pittsburgh)
724-934-5397
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Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: Mike Carr] #1652618
04/01/11 03:30 PM
04/01/11 03:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 693
San Mateo, CA
Kurtmen Offline
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Kurtmen  Offline
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Posts: 693
San Mateo, CA
Quote
I don't know, Kurtmen, when a Kawai dealer starts telling us what the price of a Yamaha won't be, folks might get the impression, who knows, that there's collusion or price fixing going on . . . and why would anyone believe what one of your competitors told you in the first place? (Or have you been shopping for a U1 your own self?)


Mike before you judge my intentions please let me give you my perspectives and reasons of my post. I understand you are not in the industry and perhaps I have a little broader understanding of the dynamics of the current market.

The OP presented a price of $5,800 OTD as if was the regular practice of the San Jose dealer (which is not) how do I know this because; we have cross-shopping very often and obviously buyers wouldn’t tell us that they have been offered a higher price than they were actually given.

Intentions of collusion and price manipulation: Impossible! First of all we don’t sell the same brand. The demand for pianos is not high enough. Consumers have access to information instantly in order to locate other Yamaha or Kawai dealers within the area. There are also few nearby competing dealers that offer equal quality products and; they are staffed with very capable personnel. Therefore a plan for price manipulation will be simply silly and a waste of time.


Quote
Anyway, db69 didn't say where he bought the U1 . . . Maybe thirty miles north-east of you he found one's been sitting on the floor for a while . . .


Why even considering traveling 30 miles for an old stock unit were the OP “was supposedly quoted already $5,800” in San Jose.
________________________________________________________________

Why am I advocating for Yamaha if I’m a Kawai dealer? The brand doesn’t matter, it just happened to be a brand that I’m familiar with in my area of business. My real reason is to advocate for the piano industry in general.

The misused and abuse of the Forum creates problems for consumers by giving them false expectations. It also predisposes buyers to think that they will have to deal with a crew of swindlers; this is unfair to the many decent people in the industry across the country who deserve a fair pay for their efforts.

Our business depends on these buyers and we cannot let them be mislead by people with selfish our trivial intentions. I want to believe that I use this Forum to contribute to the piano industry and not to deteriorate it by allowing my personal interest to lead my actions.






San Mateo Piano
Kawai Piano Dealer San Francisco Bay Area
www.sanmateopiano.com
Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: Mike Carr] #1652629
04/01/11 04:03 PM
04/01/11 04:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 6
San Jose, CA
D
dp69 Offline OP
Junior Member
dp69  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 6
San Jose, CA
I actually took delivery of my new piano a few weeks ago and was very happy with the price and service. I did not check back with the posting in Piano World since my two months piano shopping ordeal was finally over!! I just happened to check in yesterday and saw Kurtmen's comments so decided to post my update. I have been to Carnes Piano in San Jose and their wholesale piano warehouse in Fremont. They are big on Kawai pianos. I was looking at the Kawai K3 which I might have gotten for $5000.00 out the door on a group buy. But decided to get the Yamaha U1 instead since I thought it sounded better. My Yamaha U1 price was part of a group buy that the salesperson had going on, so I was just added to that group buy. Several people have already inbox me for the store info and I was happy to reply. I might be new to this forum, but I am for real. Sorry if other dealers are not able to play ball in the price range.

Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: dp69] #1652659
04/01/11 04:42 PM
04/01/11 04:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,705
USA
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gnuboi Offline
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Joined: Apr 2010
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USA
To be fair, a very very large majority of (the few) piano dealers I've met are really quite sincere and reasonable people. They all have varying amounts of bills to pay, of course. There are more lucrative and higher-volume businesses for a disingenious sales pro to pursue vs. the piano business.

Before we go into the group buy debate (again), let's just say that if I had done my diligent homework on different brands, models, touch, tone, and dealer prep/service and still decided to get a U1/K3/whatnot, a group buy would totally sweeten the deal. We all know about Carnes here so we might trust that these pianos will be well-prepped after uncrating.

Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: dp69] #1652699
04/01/11 05:44 PM
04/01/11 05:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 693
San Mateo, CA
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member
Kurtmen  Offline
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San Mateo, CA
We did not have a group sale in the last three months neither we are offering the K3 for 5K.
Many clever buyers post prices in the forum in order to get a feel of the market which is absolutely acceptable.
It is up to readers and members of the forum to play-into the strategy.
I continue doubting the OP.


San Mateo Piano
Kawai Piano Dealer San Francisco Bay Area
www.sanmateopiano.com
Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: Kurtmen] #1652719
04/01/11 06:13 PM
04/01/11 06:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 6
San Jose, CA
D
dp69 Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2011
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San Jose, CA
Kurtmen, you are right. McBain-Carnes Wholesale Piano did not have a group buy put together yet. To try to get that price, we would have to put together a group of new buyers along with the salesperson's current list of interested group buyers and have it approve by owner Scott McBain. It would take time to put a large group buy together and still not sure if the price will fly with Scott. Therefore, I proceeded with the already in place group buy for the Yamaha U1. Both are great pianos although I feel the U1 sounds brighter. At least I am already enjoying my U1 rather than waiting for the potential K3 group buy.

Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: turandot] #1652784
04/01/11 08:41 PM
04/01/11 08:41 PM
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Mike Carr Offline
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Originally Posted by turandot
That's lame, Mike. How do non-industry non-insiders know the stock at the warehouse?

Look, I know that the Bay area is very price competitive, but frankly, it amazes me that 6k is the norm taking into account CA sales tax is 9.75% ,and that the price of $5800 for a fresh sample supposedly includes that sales tax as well as delivery. That 2011 dob doesn't suggest a warehouse bursting at the seams either.

Have a nice weekend. I'll be working on an alabaster pedestal for Kurtmen.



I must be slipping when the best I can get out of you is that I'm merely "lame" . . . you're only amazed at the price because you put too much stock in msrp and smp as well as dealer's claimed piano age . . . instead of a pedestal for Kurtmen how about a full blown homage like Pierre got? Bay area dealers need some love, too . . .

Mike






smoke 'em if you got 'em
Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: Mike Carr] #1653207
04/02/11 03:41 PM
04/02/11 03:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 693
San Mateo, CA
Kurtmen Offline
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San Mateo, CA
Mike you'll do a better service to the forum by focusing your discussions to the topic in questions or pianos.
Turandot made a simple, valid, reasonable observation.

May I ask, what your objective in this thread is?


San Mateo Piano
Kawai Piano Dealer San Francisco Bay Area
www.sanmateopiano.com
Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: dp69] #1653212
04/02/11 03:49 PM
04/02/11 03:49 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,906
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Steve Cohen Offline
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dp69,

How many were in the group?


Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: Kurtmen] #1653315
04/02/11 08:28 PM
04/02/11 08:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 714
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Mike Carr Offline
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In my opinion, Kurtmen, you might help your credibility by not harassing folks who receive a better deal than you think they deserve . . . seemingly, your only intent on this post was to superficially set pricing in your area for U1's . . .

My impression, my recent experience suggests that a 6k price, more or less, is fairly typical depending on various market parameters for the given day . . . I'm not setting the price or telling anyone what a dealer won't sell a U1 for . . . it can vary from deal to deal . . . I'm merely recounting my experience . . .

Basing your market research (The authorized Yamaha dealer in San Jose does NOT sell the U1 for $5,800.00) on what your customers tell you makes little sense for a variety of reasons . . . you may have a lot of faith in your customers veracity, as long as it isn't a customer like db69, but while it's true the customer is more likely to lie about a low price to get you to drop your price you're still going by what a customer reports on a given day, an unreliable snapshot at best, and it's just as likely they're not good negotiators rather than someone who holds out for the lowest price . . . the customer who is quoted 5800 out the door for a U1 likely won't be interested in a K3 and you'll never see them or hear about it unless they have the audacity to post the price on pw . . .

Discounts for Yamaha pianos in the bay area are significant. You and the rest of the pw sales force are just going to have to live with it . . .

As for what utterances of Turandot's are simple, valid, or reasonable would best be addressed as a topic for the next Turandot/Kurtmen fan club meeting . . . hope I'm invited . . .

Mike


smoke 'em if you got 'em
Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: dp69] #1653471
04/03/11 02:11 AM
04/03/11 02:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,102
west coast island, canada
Dara Offline
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Dara  Offline
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west coast island, canada
Originally Posted by dp69
Wanted to update everyone on my Yamaha U1 purchase. Finalized the deal at $5800.00 out the door as mentioned before. Already took delivery of the piano and happy to say that we LOVE it!! The kids love playing on their new piano and we are happy to see them play. The Yamaha U1 sounds awesome!! Great price and great service, A+.


Well .... dp69
You haven't had the warmest reception as a newcomer to posting on PW.
You've made five postings so far, all on this thread, and five piano dealers have come forth questioning your honesty.

First off, congratulations on your new piano. Standard protocol here, in case you didn't know... that, and being asked to post photos of your piano.
So... you got a great deal on a group purchase. Good for you, seems you knew what you wanted, and went in on it together with a group of like minded people. Any one else out there care to share here on the same group purchase?

For the dealers out there, is there anything violating retail practices on this type of purchase? Any reason to accuse the consumer of lying, deception...
A lovely way to welcome a newcomer to this site.

Who really knows.
Is dp69 a recipient of a new Yamaha U1 at said price?

Feel free to post a photo dp69 of your new piano, if you care too.
The questions you initially asked on this thread regarding prices, are of the nature continually asked over and over again, here on PW.
Consumers are looking to find current prices on pianos and what's a good deal. Perhaps it's unlikely to find the price you supposedly paid, but I see no reason to discredit you for finding a great bargain.

Best wishes with your new piano, and your childrens enjoyment of it.

Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: Dara] #1653671
04/03/11 11:40 AM
04/03/11 11:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
turandot Offline
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turandot  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
Originally Posted by Dara

Well .... dp69
You haven't had the warmest reception as a newcomer to posting on PW.
You've made five postings so far, all on this thread, and five piano dealers have come forth questioning your honesty.


It's more a question of accuracy than of dishonesty. Dealers often question deals that are reported here if they feel that the prices and terms reported are impossibly low. In this case, a 2011 manufacture U1 is said to have been bought for 5.8k including a 9.75% sales tax and delivery. That amounts to a little over 5k for the piano itself.

Had the OP reported from the outset that it was a group purchase, the dealer reaction might have been a little less pointed. I don't know. I'm just speculating.

Here's another point. The OP reported on April 1st: "I actually took delivery of my new piano a few weeks ago and was very happy with the price and service." If that information is accurate, then the OP had the piano is his possession before opening this thread. That is significant because he had actually reported on March 15th: "I will be closing my deal very soon."

Revealing from the outset of his inquiry that he had already taken delivery of the piano would have also put things in a different perspective. Again, I'm just speculating, but I think it's reasonable speculation. And again, my point here is that it's a question of accuracy, not necessarily honesty. It's easy enough to be fuzzy on recalling dates, but accuracy suffers.

Finally, the OP reported a deal he had been offered at Carnes Piano that he later admitted was not really offered. Again, accuracy is the issue.

Accuracy is especially important in understanding reported deals that fall well outside the norms in terms of pricing. This deal as reported was inaccurate. As Steve Cohen mentioned, it could send other consumers to their Yamaha dealers demanding individual deals that are in no way possible for those dealers.

Maybe the OP is inexperienced and did not realize the need for accuracy in reporting the deal. If so, he probably realizes it now.

However, since the OP offered his price information in great detail while leaving out key information such as already having the piano in his possession and mentioning that it was a group purchase, I'm not convinced that is the case. Also, the OP's immediate reappearance here (after a two-week absence) when Kurtmen openly questioned the accuracy of his reporting is something that I can't put out of my mind. If I could, maybe I'd be offering my congratulations too.

Casual misinformation or contrived inquiry? Who really knows? In any case, there's a big difference between 5.8k including 9.75% tax and delivery and Mike's comment that 6k without tax and delivery is doable in the Bay area market.

Originally Posted by Dara
First off, congratulations on your new piano. Standard protocol here, in case you didn't know... that, and being asked to post photos of your piano.


In reality, there is no such protocol. Do you make it a point to congratulate each and every poster who has reported buying a piano? Even the site owner, who occasionally weighs in with a congratulatory remark, does not adhere to such a protocol. People tend to congratulate when they have been part of the search and provided information and/or guidance. Beyod that, it's hit or miss.

Regarding the photos, as often as not the request for pictures of a piano such as a new U1 is a gentle demand for proof of purchase. Anyone who wants to see an image of a new U1 can find several with minimal effort. It would be different if a member reported buying an old art case grand. In such a case there might be genuine curiosity to actually see the thing, but in the case of a new U1 I don't think so.

However, if you would personally like to see images of a new U1, send me a PM and I'll be happy to provide you with links.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: dp69] #1653791
04/03/11 02:32 PM
04/03/11 02:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,365
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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The irony of the whole thing is that for $ 5.8 k already better pianos are on the market today than the Yamaha U1.

Far would it be from my mind to even make a hint..

Norbert grin


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
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Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: Norbert] #1653812
04/03/11 03:22 PM
04/03/11 03:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
turandot Offline
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turandot  Offline
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torrance, CA
Originally Posted by Norbert
The irony of the whole thing is that for $ 5.8 k already better pianos are on the market today than the Yamaha U1.

Far would it be from my mind to even make a hint..

Norbert grin


There's no irony at all, other than the ironic fact that your biased opinion, as if sometimes the case, has absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: turandot] #1653832
04/03/11 04:10 PM
04/03/11 04:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 805
Sarasota and Naples, FL
Nick Mauel Offline
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Nick Mauel  Offline
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Sarasota and Naples, FL
Originally Posted by turandot
Originally Posted by Norbert
The irony of the whole thing is that for $ 5.8 k already better pianos are on the market today than the Yamaha U1.

Far would it be from my mind to even make a hint..

Norbert grin


There's no irony at all, other than the ironic fact that your biased opinion, as if sometimes the case, has absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic.


Perhaps Norbert's mentioning does have something to do with what is being discussed here, as it could be the reason for some pianos having to be discounted so severely in today's market. Everyone regardless of brand must ultimately compete for buyers at a given price.


Nick's Piano Showroom
Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL
New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, Brodmann & Ritmuller
239-206-4541 direct line
www.nickspiano.com

Concert Piano Technician, Dealer, and Pianist
Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: Mike Carr] #1653850
04/03/11 05:01 PM
04/03/11 05:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 693
San Mateo, CA
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member
Kurtmen  Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 693
San Mateo, CA
Quote
your only intent on this post was to superficially set pricing in your area for U1's . . .


I don't know if you are giving me too much credit or you think I'm so naive to think that a simple post will set prices in the Bay Area.

Quote
As for what utterances of Turandot's are simple, valid, or reasonable would best be addressed as a topic for the next Turandot/Kurtmen fan club meeting . . . hope I'm invited . . .


Invitation? You don't need one... you know where to find me.

Last edited by Kurtmen; 04/03/11 05:01 PM.

San Mateo Piano
Kawai Piano Dealer San Francisco Bay Area
www.sanmateopiano.com
Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: Nick Mauel] #1653851
04/03/11 05:03 PM
04/03/11 05:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 787
H
Hideki Matsui Offline
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Geez. You Hailun guys are too much. If anything, the behavior of Hailun dealers in this forum make me wary of Hailun pianos.


Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80
Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: Norbert] #1653857
04/03/11 05:19 PM
04/03/11 05:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 693
San Mateo, CA
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member
Kurtmen  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 693
San Mateo, CA
Quote
The irony of the whole thing is that for $ 5.8 k already better pianos are on the market today than the Yamaha U1.

Far would it be from my mind to even make a hint..



I agree with your statement not completely but to a certain degree. However this is not about performance but about creating false expectations for consumers.

This is the equivalent as if somebody posted a Hailun 121 priced for $4,000 out the door.
I'll bet you. You'll jump out of your sit.

Last edited by Kurtmen; 04/03/11 05:31 PM.

San Mateo Piano
Kawai Piano Dealer San Francisco Bay Area
www.sanmateopiano.com
Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: Nick Mauel] #1653878
04/03/11 05:51 PM
04/03/11 05:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
turandot Offline
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turandot  Offline
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Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
Originally Posted by Nick Mauel

Perhaps Norbert's mentioning does have something to do with what is being discussed here, as it could be the reason for some pianos having to be discounted so severely in today's market. Everyone regardless of brand must ultimately compete for buyers at a given price.


Nick,

I'll buy what you're selling here, but the fact is that the horse bad left the barn when the OP opened the thread. If his own words are to be believed, he was in possession of his group buy Yamaha before he opened the thread, or at a minimum, right around that time. That's a bit unusual since these group buy deals do not usually feature instantaneous delivery of a piano.

Norbert has been disparaging Yamaha U1 here for years, usually with oblique sideways swipes. What else would you expect? He's been selling against Yamaha his whole career. I wouldn't doubt that he feels a better piano can be had for less, but depositing that biased opinion here is classic Norbertesque opportunistic posting. It has absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic.

You're right about the severe discounting of Yamaha U1's discussed in this thread, but I think there are a couple of factors unique to the Socal and Bay area California markets that factor heavily into these very steep discounts.

For one thing, a Yamaha or Kawai dealer in the LA or SFO markets is not the lord of the manor. If he has a protected selling territory at all, it is exceedingly small and crisscrossed by freeways that place A variety of authorized Yamaha and Kawai dealers within easy driving range. Comepetition is fierce, which benefits the consumer.

For another, beyond the legitimate authorized dealers there are unofficial operators who cater to Asian sub-communities in brokering group sales of pianos such as the Yamaha U1 and Kawai K3. Even though these operators are not authorized dealers, they get their pianos from somewhere. I wonder where it might be.

I know competition for the consumer's dollar is keen everywhere, and I'm sure Yamaha is intent on not losing market share to a variety of Chinese upstrarts, so yeah, you're right. But this thread inquiry,if it's legitimate at all, is really about people who want a Yamaha and/or Kawai and don't need to see it or play it before they buy it. They shop price and preferred brands, and they take advantage of the fierce competition here. These people would be a very very tough sell for either you or Norbert and your Chinese brands.


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: dp69] #1654000
04/03/11 10:39 PM
04/03/11 10:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,365
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Norbert  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,365
Surrey, B.C.
To anybody even minimally familiar with the piano market,the answers to OP's original 2 questions are very simple:

*Yes* - *no*

Other than verifying the serial number, there was actually nothing else to sad by anyone - self included.

Luckily we don't exactly operate in the strictness or direness of an official courtroom setting..

Nor is everybody here intent going into endless tirades over nothing.

Please let me repeat my answer one more to eliminate any further distraction or confusion:

*Yes* - *no*

P.S. piano must be surely in OP's home by now: may I be the first to congratulate?

Norbert thumb

Last edited by Norbert; 04/04/11 12:11 AM.

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Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: Kurtmen] #1654047
04/04/11 01:17 AM
04/04/11 01:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 714
BANNED
M
Mike Carr Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mike Carr  Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 714
BANNED
Originally Posted by Kurtmen
Quote
your only intent on this post was to superficially set pricing in your area for U1's . . .


I don't know if you are giving me too much credit or you think I'm so naive to think that a simple post will set prices in the Bay Area.

Quote
As for what utterances of Turandot's are simple, valid, or reasonable would best be addressed as a topic for the next Turandot/Kurtmen fan club meeting . . . hope I'm invited . . .


Invitation? You don't need one... you know where to find me.



Kurtmen, you've got to admit you were naive enough to think one price quote by a piano world neophyte would upset your apple cart . . . can't imagine any other reason for you to be rubbing your sticks together so furiously . . . and while there was a lot of smoke, I saw little fire . . .

Where to find you? Going by your recent posts, I'd be tempted to say under the nearest rock . . . but, since you were really only trying to share your "broader understanding of the dynamics of the current market" with me, which I, er, appreciate, I won't . . .

Mike




smoke 'em if you got 'em
Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: Mike Carr] #1654345
04/04/11 02:18 PM
04/04/11 02:18 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 693
San Mateo, CA
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member
Kurtmen  Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 693
San Mateo, CA
Mike don't get your panties in a bunch.
Posting on a Late Sunday Night because you don't like what I have to say.
Take it easy you could've waited until Monday morning after coffee. wink

Last edited by Kurtmen; 04/04/11 02:20 PM.

San Mateo Piano
Kawai Piano Dealer San Francisco Bay Area
www.sanmateopiano.com
Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: Kurtmen] #1654446
04/04/11 04:29 PM
04/04/11 04:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 714
BANNED
M
Mike Carr Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mike Carr  Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 714
BANNED
Originally Posted by Kurtmen
Mike don't get your panties in a bunch.
Posting on a Late Sunday Night because you don't like what I have to say.
Take it easy you could've waited until Monday morning after coffee. wink


You know, Kurtmen, I find when panties get worked into the conversation on PW things are definitely going south . . . I usually have no problem with what you or any of the other industry pros have to say, but you have to remember that no one gets a free ride around here . . . people are constantly second guessed, often times inaccurately; nit-picked and haystacked and burned at the stake; disagreement rather than agreement is the rule as people elbow in at whatever trough they're feeding from that day . . . but that's the nature of this particular game and I wouldn't want it any other way . . .

Mike



smoke 'em if you got 'em
Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: dp69] #1654608
04/04/11 08:26 PM
04/04/11 08:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3
H
hobbes28 Offline
Junior Member
hobbes28  Offline
Junior Member
H
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3
I registered today so I can add to this thread, and to inform both buyers and dealers on current (Jan/Feb 2011) pricing on Yamaha U1 group buys in the S.F. bay area.

I've been a reader here on PW since early January, 2011, when I first started looking into buying an acoustic piano for my kids. I don't visit here very often now because I purchased my U1 in February. My kids actually had outgrown their electric keyboard a while ago, but I held off because I wasn't looking toward to the price haggling involved in buying a piano.

After doing a little research, it seems the U1 and K3 are the most recommended starter upright pianos, and you can't go wrong with either of them. My brother bought a grey market U1 (used, of course), and my kids did not seem to have problems playing on it when we visited over the holidays. I was fine with either the U1 or K3, but decided on the U1 since my kids' music teacher said he personally likes the Yamaha better.

I came across a post here on PW in early January, and the poster was inviting people on a U1 group purchase opportunity. The thread was deleted, however. I think group purchase requests here on PW are prohibited (although I don't know why). In any case, I was able to use Google cache to look at the post and get the contact info. Alas, I was too late. The person did inform me that the price was $5,300. I didn't get any more details, nor did I ask because I've already missed it. Later, I found that the group size was about 30.

For the next two weeks, I kept reading PW, and more importantly, I was using Google to search for posts on group buys. Lucky for me, I got a hit not long after. Ironically, the hit was another deleted post on PW. Google cache FTW! I emailed the organizer, and I was put on the list. The organizer also posted on craigslist, since I saw the post (subject only) on Google. Except it was deleted too, and CL's posts are not cached by Google. It took about 2 weeks, but the group finally grew large enough (~15 people) for the organizer to approach dealers. A dealer in the east bay agreed on the previous group buy price, which was $5,300 (I think this was the same dealer for the earlier Jan group buy). I want to emphasize that it was an authorized Yamaha dealer. The price included tax, delivery and 2 tunings for the first year! What a deal! The day before we were to meet at the dealer to buy the pianos, we got an email from the organizer informing us that another authorized Yamaha dealer in the south bay agreed to match the price (just down the street from Carnes Piano), and since most of the buyers were in the south bay, we went with that dealer instead. This should show people on PW how competitive the SF bay area is!

The buying process was painless. We went in, filled the paper work and a check for $5,300, and our U1 was delivered in 2 days! I'd say the most painful part of the buying process was that not everybody showed up on time, and some of the stragglers were asking questions that were already answered earlier. The salesperson was very patient though, and eventually all the paper work was done and the care instructions for the new piano were given to the group (the delivery guys also went over the caring instructions too). The group ended up with about 20 buyers.

Here are some other interesting factoids & my observations:
- All the buyers were Chinese. In fact, the salesperson spoke Mandarin the entire time. Perhaps because the only posts requesting buyers that weren't deleted were on a Chinese forum. Here's the thread: http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/SanFrancisco/33431305.html.
- Most of the buyers were already set on a U1 and have done their research. Some were not too knowledgeable, like knowing the differences between a U1 and U3, and non PE colors being more expensive.
- As far as I can tell, all were buying for their kids. A whole lot of kids around on the second floor while paper work was being done.
- The U3 price was only $1,500 more (don't quote me on this because I was only interested in a U1 so didn't pay too much attention on the U3).
- The piano that was delivered to me was uncrated on my drive way, so I don't think it was prepped. I know some people here on PW have noted that some charge more because of the "prepping" they do.

Haven't scheduled the first tuning yet, but my piano already sounds great and my kids are loving it. More importantly, they are practicing more and without being told! Now I wish I bought the piano sooner!

I know group buying is not for everyone, especially for people that need to play on the actual piano that they're going to buy. For me, I knew I wanted a U1, and I got a great price without the stress of price negotiation. I'm forever grateful for our group buy organizer.

Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: hobbes28] #1654771
04/05/11 01:54 AM
04/05/11 01:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member
turandot  Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,439
torrance, CA
Originally Posted by hobbes28
I registered today so I can add to this thread, and to inform both buyers and dealers on current (Jan/Feb 2011) pricing on Yamaha U1 group buys in the S.F. bay area.

I've been a reader here on PW since early January, 2011, when I first started looking into buying an acoustic piano for my kids. I don't visit here very often now because I purchased my U1 in February. My kids actually had outgrown their electric keyboard a while ago, but I held off because I wasn't looking toward to the price haggling involved in buying a piano.

After doing a little research, it seems the U1 and K3 are the most recommended starter upright pianos, and you can't go wrong with either of them. My brother bought a grey market U1 (used, of course), and my kids did not seem to have problems playing on it when we visited over the holidays. I was fine with either the U1 or K3, but decided on the U1 since my kids' music teacher said he personally likes the Yamaha better.

I came across a post here on PW in early January, and the poster was inviting people on a U1 group purchase opportunity. The thread was deleted, however. I think group purchase requests here on PW are prohibited (although I don't know why). In any case, I was able to use Google cache to look at the post and get the contact info. Alas, I was too late. The person did inform me that the price was $5,300. I didn't get any more details, nor did I ask because I've already missed it. Later, I found that the group size was about 30.

For the next two weeks, I kept reading PW, and more importantly, I was using Google to search for posts on group buys. Lucky for me, I got a hit not long after. Ironically, the hit was another deleted post on PW. Google cache FTW! I emailed the organizer, and I was put on the list. The organizer also posted on craigslist, since I saw the post (subject only) on Google. Except it was deleted too, and CL's posts are not cached by Google. It took about 2 weeks, but the group finally grew large enough (~15 people) for the organizer to approach dealers. A dealer in the east bay agreed on the previous group buy price, which was $5,300 (I think this was the same dealer for the earlier Jan group buy). I want to emphasize that it was an authorized Yamaha dealer. The price included tax, delivery and 2 tunings for the first year! What a deal! The day before we were to meet at the dealer to buy the pianos, we got an email from the organizer informing us that another authorized Yamaha dealer in the south bay agreed to match the price (just down the street from Carnes Piano), and since most of the buyers were in the south bay, we went with that dealer instead. This should show people on PW how competitive the SF bay area is!

The buying process was painless. We went in, filled the paper work and a check for $5,300, and our U1 was delivered in 2 days! I'd say the most painful part of the buying process was that not everybody showed up on time, and some of the stragglers were asking questions that were already answered earlier. The salesperson was very patient though, and eventually all the paper work was done and the care instructions for the new piano were given to the group (the delivery guys also went over the caring instructions too). The group ended up with about 20 buyers.

Here are some other interesting factoids & my observations:
- All the buyers were Chinese. In fact, the salesperson spoke Mandarin the entire time. Perhaps because the only posts requesting buyers that weren't deleted were on a Chinese forum. Here's the thread: http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/SanFrancisco/33431305.html.
- Most of the buyers were already set on a U1 and have done their research. Some were not too knowledgeable, like knowing the differences between a U1 and U3, and non PE colors being more expensive.
- As far as I can tell, all were buying for their kids. A whole lot of kids around on the second floor while paper work was being done.
- The U3 price was only $1,500 more (don't quote me on this because I was only interested in a U1 so didn't pay too much attention on the U3).
- The piano that was delivered to me was uncrated on my drive way, so I don't think it was prepped. I know some people here on PW have noted that some charge more because of the "prepping" they do.

Haven't scheduled the first tuning yet, but my piano already sounds great and my kids are loving it. More importantly, they are practicing more and without being told! Now I wish I bought the piano sooner!

I know group buying is not for everyone, especially for people that need to play on the actual piano that they're going to buy. For me, I knew I wanted a U1, and I got a great price without the stress of price negotiation. I'm forever grateful for our group buy organizer.


hobbes28,

That was a very informative post. Assuming the facts are correct, you have certainly "inform[ed] both buyers and dealers on current (Jan/Feb 2011) pricing on Yamaha U1 group buys in the S.F. bay area." I think the level of appreciation among consumers will be a bit more than that of the dealers who participate here.

I'll take a stab at your question of why the posts looking for group members here were deleted. It's solicitation, plain and simple. It's no different from a professional retailer soliciting business here or a non-industry member here seeking a customer for a piano he wants to sell. Your posts presumably won't be deleted because you are not soliciting anything (I guess).

Also, there are group purchase schemes that are frauds with up front money paid and no piano actually delivered. As for Craigslist, it's easy for anyone to flag a post for removal. Retailers in your Bay area and in SoCal are ever alert to the benefits of flagging the competition.

If you don't mind a few nosy questions>>>>

Were you completely unaware of group buys in the Chinese community before you read the posts here looking for group members?

Was there absolutely no up front money, only the single check you wrote at the dealership?

Did your child's teacher provide any information about group buys and/or group buy intermediaries?

Do you assume that your intermediary (organizer) was working for nothing and that the full proceeds were going to stay with the retail shop?

Did any of the other group customers who showed up at the shop appear to know each other (church group, social club members, same piano teacher, etc.)?

Do you feel that it was ethical for the operator to switch retailer sources at the last minute?

Do you feel that the reason that the operator made the switch was simply for the convenience of the group and not because he had arranged a better cut for himself at the second shop?

Which was the more important feature of the group deal for you: avoiding price negotiation or saving money?

Are you aware that even though you are not soliciting in your post that some members here may send you private messaages soliciting you for specific information?

I'm not asking these questions because I doubt your report in any way. I'm just curious, especially about the timing. I'm surprised that your 'organizer' could make a switch one day, get you all to show up at a different shot and pay the next day, and arrange for delivery two days later. That's quite a feat.






Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: turandot] #1654814
04/05/11 04:08 AM
04/05/11 04:08 AM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3
H
hobbes28 Offline
Junior Member
hobbes28  Offline
Junior Member
H
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by turandot

I'll take a stab at your question of why the posts looking for group members here were deleted. It's soliciation, plain and simple. It's no different from a professional retailer soliciting business here or a private seller seeking a customer for a piano he wants to sell. Your posts presumably won't be deleted because you are not soliciting anythings (I guess).

Also, there are group purchase schemes that are frauds with up front money paid and no piano actually delivered. On Craigslist, it's easy for anyone to flag a post for removal. Retailers in your Bay area and in SoCal are ever alert to the benefits of flagging the competition.


I can understand that. Like everything else, buyers must exercise due diligence, especially with such an expensive purchase.

Originally Posted by turandot

Were you completely unaware of group buys in the Chinese community before you read the posts here looking for group members?


I didn't know there were group buys on pianos. This was my first group buy participation, if you don't include my digital camera purchase via Mercata 8 years ago. We now have Groupons and LivingSocial, but they ain't no Mercata!

Originally Posted by turandot

Was there absolutely no up front money, only the single check you wrote at the dealership?


No up front anything, except contacting the poster that I was interested. The poster asked for a contact phone number, but the person did all communication via email (at least for me). I would have never gotten involved if there were any money involved before the actual purchase. I consider myself quite internet savvy, and wouldn't have fallen for such a scam (I hope!).

Originally Posted by turandot

Did your child's teacher provide any information about group buys and.ir group buy intermediaries?


No. We only asked him for opinion on the K3 and U1.

Originally Posted by turandot

Do you assume that your intermediary (organizer) was working for nothing and that the full proceeds were going to go to stay with the retail shop?


Actually, that never entered my mind. My only concerns were the price and that the dealer was an authorized dealer. I can tell you that the person wrote a check for the same amount to the dealer. Whether the person got any benefits afterwards, I do not know. My personal feeling is that I hope the person got something for the leg work, like a bunch of free tunings or something.

Originally Posted by turandot

Did any of the other group customers who showed up at the shop appear to know each other (church group, social club members, same piano teacher etc.)?


This is just my opinion and my observation since I didn't ask, but most appeared to be strangers. Perhaps 1 or 2 couple might have been acquaintances.

Originally Posted by turandot

Do you feel that it was ethical for the operator to switch retailer sources at the last minute?


I don't think it was a last minute switch since it was more than a day. Not all bids and counter-offers come in at the same time, so I can understand that.

Originally Posted by turandot

Do you feel that the reason that the operator made the switch was simply for the convenience of the group and not because he had arranged a better cut for himself at the second shop?


As I said above, I don't know if the person got anything out of it. Personally, I was very happy with the switch because what would have been an one hour drive changed into a 15 minutes drive. However, I wouldn't have minded driving the 1 hour for the deal.

Originally Posted by turandot

Which was really the more important feature to you: avoiding price negotiation or saving money?


That's a tough question. While I don't enjoy the cat&mouse game of price negotiation, I also want to get a good deal. When it gets down to it, I guess I don't mind a little bit of work to get a better deal.

Originally Posted by turandot

I'm not asking these questions because I doubt your report in any way. I'm just curious, especially about the timing. I'm surprised that your 'organizer' could make a switch one day, get you all to show up at different place and pay the next day, and arrange for delivery two days later. That's quite a feat.


Actually, I don't see this as such a big deal, especially given that the lead time was over a day. With real time email and cell phone, I don't think it would have been a problem even for a much shorter heads-up time. Remember, we were all ready to drive to "a" dealer, so it didn't really matter to which dealer. With weekend traffic, the drive to anywhere in the bay area is only about an hour.

The delivery was arranged by the dealer, and I was pleasantly surprised by the quick availability. The salesperson called a couple of days after the delivery to follow up, and to thank us for the business. Very happy with the dealer service and experience.

Re: New March 2011 Yamaha U1 price? [Re: dp69] #1654825
04/05/11 04:21 AM
04/05/11 04:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,705
USA
G
gnuboi Offline
2000 Post Club Member
gnuboi  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,705
USA
Congrats, hobbes28, indeed a great deal. Without "prep", a rare (or maybe not so rare) case appears and the piano could have some issues, but more than likely such issues covered by warranty. Keep your eyes (ears) open.

Interesting to learn that you think most of the group were strangers to each other. I would've guessed Chinese School!

I was just thinking to myself... wow that's a lot of U1s being sold. Maybe one day I can pick up a used one cheap... then I figured that by that time, these U1's originally bought for $5300 would probably sell for at least that amount (sans depreciation other than from inflation) if we go by the way piano companies are raising prices year after year...

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