Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Kawai CA63 vs CA93?

Well, maybe he does deserve it.

Nope, depends on how much you can/want to spend for audiophile grade stuff and how well the total system is integrated (e.g. a soundboard makes sense for a piano). Nowadays that can be either in the 1000, 10000 or +100000 Euro class (order of magnitude). By the way, speakers standing in a different corner or even in a different room than your DP are not of much use, no matter how much they cost. I (and also my wife) don't like the look of using separate speakers with a DP anyway (as reported before), except for a stagepiano on stage or in a studio environment.

Mid-Dec ’10 I had the opportunityto try a 15 year old Yamaha Clavinova. Astounded at the quality and variety of sounds, a yearning to revisit the musical part of my life that had been in absentia since ’71 led to three months of investigating, especially on this forum. Many thanks to all who contribute of their knowledge and wisdom.

Locally there was one Yamaha dealer who managed to stock one Clavinova 320 at a time. He boasted that he was relieved his company rep hadn’t visited him in years, since, as an authorized dealer, he was supposed to have more floor models. Another primarily sheet music and school instrument repair dealer had a Roland 305 (nice sound and keys, horrible instrument panel layout). Those were my choices. I ended up having to travel 2+ hrs to get to a dealership that had several Yamaha and Roland models together in one showroom.

The balanced remarks of Kawai James prevented me from just going with a CLP 340 (too bright) and HP 305 (too expensive).
I also found the whole SP tone engine being limited to only their Grand Piano #1, as a rather disconcerting publicity strategy.

I had to spend considerable time and energy finding a dealer that carried the Kawai line, but was determined that I should not decide until giving the Kawai instrument a try. Relatively short 4-6 hour drive to Canadian dealerships in Halifax and Quebec City were of no use given that they did not carry the full CN and CA lines. I found a great dealer in Salem NH who worked with me by phone. I went down this past Sat and tried my three prime suspects: CN43 ($1900), and CA 63 ($2600) and CA 93 ($3500). The keyboard touch of the 63/93 quickly eliminated the 43, though I believe it is the best “plastic key” touch I experienced among Yamaha and Roland. The 93 sounded horrible against the wall until I discovered that the owner did not have a clue about the wall EQ adjustment, and that my level of familiarity with the instrument and its owners’ manual was more extensive than his. My wife and I chose to eliminate the 93 due to: 1) a price difference with the 63 of $900, 2) no discernable difference sound wise to our admittedly older ears 3) my spouse and I were loading whatever we bought into a rented van, and would have to get it into out home by ourselves; the 93 is factory assembled, thus a larger, bulkier box, the 63 was disassembled in a more manageable box; the 93 weighs 192 lbs., the 63 weighs 168 lbs.

Great job on the assembly part of the manual, and the whole manual, Kawai James. It’s up and running, and I am putting it through its paces. We have run into intermittent gaps between notes, which allows the eye to see shiny metal parts under the keys for the octaves above and below middle C (quite distracting), and the Kawai tech asked for digital pictures to determine how Kawai will address this. For me personally, Kawai products in the $1500 to $3000 price range give more bang for the buck than Yamaha and Roland, which are good products. The Kawai combine the “big bass” of Roland and clarity of Yamaha in the mid to upper range. My personal bias is for a “darker” more European sound than the brighter Yamaha sound. Furthermore, the upcoming CLP 4xx series doesn’t seem to offer any significant innovation. To my ears the SP engine is “beautiful but more manufactured”; almost massaged into prettiness. I’m not sure how else to express myself. I can take or leave the other sounds on the CA 63. I would rate the 63 as the “pianists’ DP” for the range, flexibility, and uniformly excellent piano sounds. The wooden keys add to the whole package, though I would have taken the CN43 over any Yamaha product in my price range (under $3000).

If I had not liked the Kawai line, or had not been able to get my hands on one to try, I would have chosen the Roland HP 305 for $2900, including delivery. For our application, we needed a console version. If that had not been the case, the MP 10 would probably have been our choice. The Roland FP7F was a contender until I heard its on board speakers. Also, fine tuning, especially around issues such as brightness and mellowness are limited to the Piano Designer on the FP7F, whereas the HP 305 has a brilliance adjustment, and the HP 307 has both a brilliance adjustment and Piano Designer.

Congratulations Moepiano with your new digital piano and with your first post on pianoworld! It sounds like your considerations between Yamaha, Roland and Kawai sound were similar to mine and many others here. Your analysis of the tradeoffs between the CA63 and the C93 is also spot on.

Perhaps we should start a war stories thread about who has gone to the most trouble, taken the most time or put up with the worst dealers in trying to even find or audition a Kawai!

Hope that the key gap / irregularity / etc. issue that seems to come up quite regularly on Kawai's RM3 keybed equipped dps is addressed to your satisfaction very soon.

Could you also let us know how you have arranged for the warranty to be serviced? Kawai James has warned us repeatedly on other threads that buying a Kawai outside of one's country can mean that one will be denied warranty coverage or required to bring the piano back to the country of origin. In oder to fix your keys it will be good to know that instead of you having to load up your piano and head down to the US again that Kawai Canada will send a rep to your home to fix the problem under warranty even though you bought your piano in the United States. After all, it is bad enough that due to cutting corners on their distribution network that Kawai has forced you to spend all the time and expense out of your own pocket just to buy their product. It would be unfair for them to penalize you again just to fix their quality problems. Good luck and keep us in the loop!

Congratulations on your CA63 purchase, MoePiano!

It comes as no surprise that cramped positioning against a wall leads to an unbalanced sound. I've witnessed this with both the CA93 and CA111 (previous generation). Partly disabling the soundboard by way of the wall EQ surely leads to a sound that's close(r) to a CA63 (certainly in a music store environment), but this is more like a weak compromise i.m.h.o. Although it is written in the user manual (for obvious reasons), I would not advice this EQ setting towards any CA93 owner.

Better leave the wall EQ off and make sure there is (at least) 6inch/15cm space to let the soundboard breathe. In my specific living room the optimal CA93 surround sound experience is reached at just over 8inch/20cm between the wall and the soundboard (that's probably because we have some curtains there). Moreover, not the 2 tweeters, but the 4 upwards pointing midrange speakers also contribute significantly to the equation of optimal CA93 positioning.

MoePiano, thank you for your constructive first post, and congratulations on your new piano! I'm glad to read that your considerable efforts travelling from dealer to dealer in order to play each brand/model proved worthwhile in the end.



Many thanks for the positive feedback.

On this topic, it may be worth noting that I recently updated the CA93/CA63 owner's manual to 'version 2'. A PDF of the updated owner's manual can be downloaded from Kawai Europe here (I'll ask the chaps at Kawai US to update their servers shortly).

Kind regards,
James
x

I apologize for creating the impression that I am a Canadian resident. I live in Maine, which places me equidistant to Canadian and American dealerships. Many thanks for the feedback and warm welcome. I may not have much expertise to offer, but will be an eager consumer of this site's wisdom. Technical support from Kawai will review digital photos of the gaps in the CA 63 keyboard before recommending a response.
Regards,
MoePiano

Would anyone recommend a certain distance between a CA 63 and a wall?

Just to correct a couple of MoePiano's observations: On the Roland HP-305, the supernatural sound engine provides all the main piano voices, not just Piano 1. The confusion arises because when entering Piano Designer the piano defaults to Piano 1...but all adjustments apply to the three main pianos.

Secondly, the FP-7F, whist not having a dedicated brilliance control, does have an equalizer, so its brilliance/mellowness can be adjusted outside of the Piano Designer (which itself, other than lid position, doesn't really cater for this kind of sonic adjustment anyway).

But in any event, there appears to be another satisfied CA-63 owner here!

Cheers,

Steve

According to John at Roland Technical Services 323-890-3744, the Supernatural Engine controls only Grand Piano #1 on the HP 305, 307, and FP7F, which are the only Roland products I investigated in depth. He reported to me that the two other acoustic piano tones are older samples that have been carried over. There is no Piano Designer feature on the HP 305, as there is on the HP 307 and the FP7F. I agree that the PD's "open lid" is limited in addressing brilliance compared to the dedicated brilliance control found on the HP 305 and 307. The equalizer route seems to me like a sledge hammer, where a scalpel is more appropriate.


Regards,
Moe

According to Roland Central Europe in Belgium (telephone +32 (0) 14 575 811), the Supernatural Engine controls only Grand Piano #1 on the HP-305, HP-307 and the FP-7F.

As an owner of the HP-307, I can confirm that only Grand Piano #1 (out of a total of 11 tones in the Piano tone list) demonstrates the aural characteristics including a phasey decay that we collectively refer to as "Supernatural", including #2 Piano+Strings.

That this is the case is further reinforced by the fact that the text " supernatural " is only displayed when using the Grand Piano #1 on the very recently introduced FP-7F.

The Piano Designer functionality precedes the existence of the so-called Supernatural engine and was also available on pre-SN instruments such as the HP-207 and is therefore a red herring to this discussion. Piano Designer is not equal to Supernatural. http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=870

That the HP-307, HP-305 and FP-7F do not have more than one Supernatural instrument is further reinforced by the fact that Roland specifically and explicitly markets the RD-700NX as being an exception in the line up and having more than one and as also having EPs which are also Supernatural. There would be no need to make a big deal about the RD-700NX having additional functionality if this additional functionality were already included for free in the cheaper or home cabinet instruments.
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=1123
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.php?ProductId=1128

That this is the case is further reinforced by the fact that the current problems with layering of Supernatural sounds is primarily being reported on the RD-700NX where this layering is possible but apparently taxing on the processor capacity of the RD-700NX. No such Piano+Strings problem exists on the HP-307 because no such problem existed on the HP-207 and the HP-307 and HP-207 are the same instrument regarding the tones other than Grand Piano #1.
https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...%20found%20a%20serious%20kin.html#UNREAD

I can understand that desire that some might have for the instrument to be more Supernatural than it is. However, if owners of the Roland cannot tell when they are listening to a Supernatural tone or not, this certainly validates and vindicates the decision of those who choose to purchase a better valued Kawai CA-63.

...which might suggest that Kawai CA-63 has an inferior sound compared to the Roland SN which is not the case although certain aspects of SN are indeed high quality. The Kawai sound signature is in my ears extremely pleasing and in this respect superior to the Roland sound. Furthermore the velocity layers are smoothly blended and looping is not easily detected when playing in real life. The Roland SN on the other side has non-looping and nicely resonating sounds.

So the SN sound is in my view only a minor aspect for a purchase decision compared to the overall playing experience and sound. That's why testing the different models is so crucial for making the right purchase decision.

Mmm...you're all wrong I'm afraid. The Piano 1, 2 and 3 are SN pianos on the HP-307 and FP-7F. The use of the Piano designer on both instruments causes it to default to Piano 1 but adjustments are applied to all three pianos. And theJourney, I'm well aware that Piano Designer and SN are separate issues if your comment was addressed to me - I could write the bloody book on these things.

I know that only Piano 1 is labelled supernatural but they are all SN:

I owned RD-700GX with SN upgrade, I owned HP-307 and I now own FP-7F so whatever Roland is telling you or whatever your own interpretation is, take it from me, the three principle piano tones are SN. And the HP-305 has exactly the same number of voices as 307 so will of course have exactly the same voices (as does HP-302). Having probably owned more Roland SN equipped products than any other individual (certainly on here) I think I'm qualified to say what is and is not SN.

Furthermore, in the "other" voices bank at the commencement of the GM voice set the first few pianos (labelled something like Piano 1, Piano 1w, Piano 1d, Piano 2 and Piano 2w) all have SN characteristics - no stretching, no audible velocity layers and no looping. The only thing they don't have is all the resonance behaviours that are available when using the main Pianos 1, 2 and 3.

As to why Roland would say otherwise? Well, note that RD-700NX has three principle SN pianos called concert, studio and brilliant. HP and FP also have three principle pianos...clearly they are using the same basic SN chip to save production costs. The RD is a flagship product for Roland and it needs to be perceived by the market to be SN+...the top of the SN line. For marketing reasons there's every justification in creating an impression the RD has more, and does more. Which it does of course...but not in relation to the three basic piano voices.

For anyone who doubts me, just pop along to your local shop, take some decent headphones and listen! I'm flabbergasted that to clarify the situation someone would call some minimum wage idiot call handler at Roland rather than trust their ears.

Finally, the SN business is very significant if you are really focusing on BEHAVIOUR...the behaviours are great, just what Roland promised. SOUND is another matter. SN doesn't make it sound good necessarily - you need to like your piano sound after all. I'd rather have a non SN sound that I liked than a SN sound that I was indifferent to. This is the Roland failing; they have placed too much emphasis on behaviour and not enough on tone. The three pianos voices are too similar so if you're not keen on one, you won't be keen on the others.

Anyway, I've said my piece - your choice whether to accept what I'm saying about HPs and FPs.

Steve

+1!

This is what I also perceived when testing the HP-307. It's just not my case although the piano behaviour is really good. And now we're back to the original intent of this thread - which one of these fine DPs to choose: CA63 or CA93....

What a real supernatural experience!

I just remembered where several people, including myself, have asked this question before (just scroll down to see that there were various answers given):

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1525482.html#Post1525482

Is it just me or are both the CA93 and CA63 considerably cheaper in the UK?
http://www.woodbrass.com/en/digital+piano+kawai+ca93+rosewood+-+88+key+ca+93+news

2749 for a CA-93 sounds about like the street price in Europe to me. Remember nobody AFAIK pays the asking list price for these cabinet pianos.

The CA-93 is advertised for 2999 in NL. Getting them to knock off 250 euros or including that much merchandise shouldn't be too difficult.

Interestingly in contrary to most other DP brands it's extremely difficult to get a discount for buying a Kawai DP, at least the CA63 or CA93. I for myself normally are able to really get a good discount, but wasn't able to do this for my CA63 (except for a free bench and a free delivery). First I thought this was only because the new CA63 was just released.

But see the current prices on thomann.de:
CA63: 2249 Euro
CA93: 3049 Euro

That's even more expensive than one year ago! And it's the price of the thomann discount shop. Just search the internet, you can't find a shop (at least in Germany) that beats this price for the CA63 (there is only one shop that lists the CA93 for 2990 Euro).

There seems to be no real room for discount...

mucci, I had quite the opposite experience, I found Kawai DP dealers to be the closer to acoustic ones in term of price negotiation. Roland dealers were not open to negotiate.

Interesting. Maybe Spain is different? Or maybe I made my purchase too early (early adopter)?

I have a CA-63, and have found that putting a foot or more between the unit and the wall improves the sound dramatically, at least from the perspective of me sitting at it. Which is after all the most important one! The very helpful Kawai support tech who came out to evaluate the piano indicated that, like an acoustic grand, the middle of the room is probably the best placement.