Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs

Due to the sensitive nature of this subject (ET/EBVT III) on PW lately, I will hasten to add that this was no judging on my part - just an appreciation of GPM's passion for the instrument and the music produced on it. I love the ambiguity of the verb "play", and there couldn't be a better spot for it than in that sentence

Hello Glen, thanks for your words. How are you doing with your tuning?

Hello Jake, thanks for your comment. There might be something about my English, or perhaps my style, that does'nt help. In which case I apologize. Personally, I'm very much in favor of exploration and development.

…."I'm not sure that Bill has claimed that EBVT III is the only temperament worth tuning."…

Well, how do you translate the "one size fits all" claim? But even this would not be the question. What I would like to argue about is "objective reasons", in concrete and logical terms.

…"He's praised CHas and Bernard Stopper's work"…

And me too, I appreciate Bill's work very much. Beyond that…

…"my impression is that he likes the well temp that David P. tunes in the videos from Emerson College in England."…

I've missed those videos. Are they available?

…"Aren't they apples and oranges, really, a perfect ET and a well-temp, with entirely different intentions behind them?"…

Well, there is a point where any difference is lost and only "intentions" are left. Can we talk about that? So, the questions I've posted (above) are real. Would'nt you expect an answer? For what I read, some people in this forum like talking about ET. Would you say they have acknowledged ET recent developments?

Best regards, a.c.

Alfredo,

I certainly never claimed that the EBVT III is the only temperament worth tuning. Even though I tune it most often, there are several others that I use from time to time: 1/7 Comma Meantone, 1/7 Comma Meantone with one pure fifth, Representative 18th Century Well Temperament (which uses the same sequence as the EBVT except that the four initial RBI's are at 4 beats per second instead of 6; the A#-F fifth also remains pure), 1/9 Comma Meantone, 2.5 and 2.6 cents narrow fifths Meantones, Rameau-Rousseau-Hall 18th Century Modified Meantone and a variation of the latter which has the CE M3 at 1 cent width instead of pure and finally, the Vallotti 18th Century Well Temperament.

Any of the above could be used with any kind of music and thus could be considered "one size fits all". In my writing, I have said that ET is apparently considered to be the only temperament which fits that description by those who advocate it. It was Helmholtz's theory. My take on that is that Herr Helmholtz saw all of the many variations and claims of preference and provided his own solution which has an undeniable logic to it from the point of view of an arbitrator.

For example, if there is a court case where there are 12 people having a claim to a certain sum of money but each presents an unsupportable claim, the judge affords each claimant an equal amount while disregarding the value which each claimant had presented as being rightful to them.

The decision is deemed fair but each claimant is equally dissatisfied as much as they are satisfied. The analogy to music is that the judge (Helmholtz, who was a scientist, not a musician) disregarded the value of the key signature.

Other music theorists indeed thought of ET very long ago, including Werkmeister, Neidhardt, Mersenne, Rameau and Marpurg but none of them ever produced a workable way to tune it. Even if they had, according to historical documents, ET was not what musicians of the 17th, 18th and 19th Century wanted to use, so they didn't. They preferred the distinctions in key color that well temperaments, modified meantones and mild meantones provided to the music that was commonly played at that time over the neutrality afforded by ET.

Only in the 19th Century and beyond did music progress to the point of modulations that were not seen in earlier music. Beethoven was perhaps the first to present these kinds of musical "surprises" after he had lost all ability to hear and therefore his mind became more theoretical. His later compositions were very avant guard for their time.

So, in these late 19th Century and early 20th Century pieces for the piano (which, as we know it) did not develop until the very late 19th Century), there was a natural gravitation towards ET. The assumption today is that the music of Chopin, Debussy, Ravel, Gershwin, Scriabin, Rachmaninoff and any others you may care to think of, all required ET.

This is actively being disproved today by the technicians who provide non-equal temperaments to the artists who have embraced them for what they offer and perform any and all types of music from any and all periods on them. That is not to say that people may still have an opinion about such uses as we have seen here on this forum.

A common phrase in our culture is, "Some like it hot, some like it not."

Alfredo and all,

Well, as a wiser soul here has said, we all sometimes reveal that we believe our own child to be the most beautiful, but maybe we can continue to explore.

Here's a link to an afternoon video with an 1880's Bechstein that David tuned to his well temperament. You may not like it. That's OK. The pianist, Adolfo Barabino, did not know this piano, which is not perfect:

http://www.youtube.com/user/latribe#p/search/10/ZH2IXOfnBqw

I don't want to seem to promote the thread about these videos, which I started after running across them by accident and then writing David to ask him to join the forum to discuss the temperament, but here's the link:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1590814/1.html

I'd actually like to hear what you hear in some of these pieces, Alfredo, and to hear what David would say about the recordings you've made using CHas. I won't be offended or hurt if you dislike them.

David's focus seems to be on exploring variants of the temperaments in which pieces may have been composed, to try to recreate, possibly, the original experience and just to listen to the results. (The question of what temperament Chopin and others composed and played in is of course impossible to answer, although it apparently wasn't ET. We're left trying out the later meantones and well temperaments and temperaments ordinaire and quasi-ET's and listening to the result. A pleasant guessing game, in a sense, but one that can reveal new beauties in the music, so the matter becomes serious. (Beauty is a serious matter?)

By the way, have you considered doing a video or two? How about the Chopin Nocturne Op 9, no 2? Not as a way to create a competition between CHas and a well temperament, but just to provide a reference point. Or an audio recording of the nocturne? Might be interesting, if any time opens up in the next few weeks. I'l like to hear this piece in EBVT III, too. In the Stopper temperament? Does it seem like a good idea to have a well-known piece recorded in the various temperaments as a reference point for discussions? Not as a way to argue for which is best, but as a way to discuss the exact effect on a single piece, instead of generally discussing the effects of a tuning.

Good to hear from you again. I'm looking forward to hearing more things recorded with CHas. (What has become of Kamin?)

Alternative to any true ET. No matter which stretch, as long as the ET common denominator is fulfilled: Any 3rd beats faster than all the 3rds below it. Any 6th beats faster than all the 6ths below it.

I don't intend sarcasm by saying this but I think of it as an alternative to the Helmoltz arbitration or an alternative to conventional wisdom.

Alfredo, it is a shame that you could not also be a part of the 2011 PTG convention. Perhaps you could join us next year? Ryan Sowers will be the director and he would be the person to address.

Depends what you mean by "recent developments". I am not aware of any "recent developments" since about 1440.

Kees

Hi!

I'm looking forward to the recordings here and Jake, thanks for drawing attention to the other thread mentioning my recordings with Adolfo Barabino and friends. Probably as a result of this, someone wrote to me on YouTube:


The bottom line on temperament is in my mind that musicians once expected much purer intervals than we now hear at least in the home keys and that they used the others to effect. How much was a matter of fact and degree and I've heard it said that there is a fine line between a good temperament, and being out of tune. Whilst fine for the Harpsichord Kirnberger III is brilliant, on the piano I'm not happy that it's not a step too far, so I use a temperament based on Werkmeister pushed as far as I believe one can go. Temperament should have a musical purpose if it is to be part of the music, and not merely to be nice, like treacle.

It's certainly worth experimenting with the temperaments that go in the Werkmeister direction.

Best wishes

David P

Alfredo,

I just listened to your recent recording again, and I have the same feeling about it that I had when Isaac (Kamin) posted his CHAS tuning (of bach/siloti, I think). This is the kind of ET I'd like to learn how to tune. Would you teach me how to do it?

Indeed. I will ask Ryan Sowers to work on an invitation for Alfredo Capurso to present the CHAS temperament and tuning at the 2012 convention. If Alfredo is able to accept, I am sure we can find someone to work out the language barrier problems. For all of the difficulty there has been in trying to understand Alfredo's concepts in writing, the recording speaks for itself in the quality of his work.

Dear Alfredo

The Chas tuning that you have recorded on the Fazioli sounds to me like a perfect ET piano to me - very fine. (Have you found yet my recordings at Hammerwood and Emerson and the more recent ones on the Yamaha?)

But what is beginning to be apparent is that performers are able to convey more meaning to their audiences if a good UT is used as is being increasingly understood to have been intended to be in use by composers. The other evening a friend of mine tuned a concert instrument to the UT that I use without telling anyone. Apparently no-one consciously noticed but the pianist wanted to communicate with my friend after the concert, obviously curious, but there wasn't time. We're waiting for the next installment.

I'm hoping that Bill might do the same sometime without telling anyone to see what the effect is.

However, I think we are seeing some diversifications of approach as to whether one uses fixed octaves or one allows the inharmonicity to affect the equal temperament. This is not so much an issue on big instruments. Interestingly in the early days of my tuning, I took no account of inharmonicity at all and tuned to purely equal temperament frequencies and the recordings on
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/jan-zak/
are the result.

So http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/jan-zak/liszt.mp3 is ET tuned exactly save from A=880, raised by 1 Hz per octave so A - 440, 881, 1763 and some 18 years later the same piano
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buDzqBuwm3I
now in UT but with A 440 882 1765

Since this time I have been experimenting with bass octave harmonic reinforcement of the temperament which I have probably mentioned elsewhere intended to assist the instrument to "lock" and "unlock" in the home and remote keys when the sustaining pedal is used and this may have an effect on the perceived resonance of the instrument and which will change in a key dependent way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgA1-I5MfNY is a comparison between the unequal temperament at Hammerwood Park and the same piece played on a Yamaha concert instrument, the recordings equalised to attempt to make the instruments similar except for the temperament.

Of all pieces that I find very annoying to listen to now in ET and quasi ET is the raindrop prelude for the reason that the chords shape shift interestingly but don't in ET, it becoming very tediously boring when one has heard the effect in UT. Here it is in UT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsn9g4pS2RA

Best wishes

David P

My policy has always been, "Don't ask, don't tell"

David

Do you have any evidence of what temperament prevailed at the time of Chopin writing the Funeral March sonata, and what Chopin liked? I am not convinced that the pure/spicy/pure/spicy etc. effect is what Chopin had in mind. To me, the interpretation and the wonderful old tone of the instrument is the key to the sound and not the temperament. I also think that Chopin's piano music goes down well on modern instrument in ET. Millions of Chopin lovers over the decades cannot be wrong!

Sure, Patrick, I'm ready to do that. Compatibly with our commitments, I'll be happy to meet you.

Bill, thank you for your proposal and your efforts. When ever, it will be a honor for me to present Chas theory and practical tuning at the PTG.

David, in general I'm more concerned about colleagues and technical/tuning issues than audiences. About your tunings, I think they are enjoyable. In the "raindrop prelude" of yours (UT), some notes belonging to C# do not meet my urge. But that might be me only. Actually, how do you like the last cadenza?

Did composers have UT/WT in mind? This opens to another question: Which UT/WT, amongst dozens? Perhaps the problem was not "what one or ten composers had in their own mind" but what to do with the commas on fixed keyboards, how to win on "wolves" and gain euphony. Personally, as a musician I've always given maximum "in tune" in all keys for granted.

Best regards,

Alfredo


Chas tuning mp3 - live recording on Fazioli
http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/07c3ca3905_6.32MB

CHAS Tuning mp3 - Amatorial recording on a Steinway S (5’ 1”, 155 cm)
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv

CHAS THEORY - RESEARCH REPORT BY G.R.I.M. - Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo - 2009, Italy:
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

Article by Prof. Nicola Chiriano - published by P.RI.ST.EM (Progetto Ricerche Storiche E Metodologiche) - University "Bocconi" - Milano, 2010 - (Italian):
http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte

Discussion (PW):
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1194874/1.html

Approach, method and sequence (PW):
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1383831/1.html

Chris,

I know that you were addressing David, but if I may add something:

We don't know the exact temperament that Chopin composed and played in, but the one thing we do know is that his pianos were not tuned to ET, which did not exist except in theory. We do have some reasons to be sure that A4 was not 440, however, and the temperament was set starting from C instead of from A4. The concert pitch of 440 was set later, and tuning forks from the era tend to be C forks, and varied according to the intended piano and setting: see the article on page 800 of The Athenaeum from June of 1885 (well after Chopin's death) which mentions Broadwood's use of three different pitches for a C fork:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Wm...AEwCA#v=snippet&q=tuning&f=false

So...Yes, millions of Chopin lovers have in several senses been completely wrong. But does Chopin still sound lovely in ET? Of course. I recently found this video of Ingrid Fliter playing the Db nocturne, and it's undeniably beautiful. I can't help but wonder how it would sound if she had played in a temperament and tuning closer to that which Chopin composed in, however:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaeiARja7pQ

My hope is that David will one day cross paths with Ms. Fliter and persuade her to sit down at his Bechstein. Any tour dates in England...?

EDIT: She's scheduled to play in London this year from June 6-June 12 at Queen Elizabeth Hall. ( http://www.ingridfliter.com/tours.html ).

David, your mission is clear.

From where do you "know" this and what makes you so sure about?
Already Werckmeister switched to ET in his late writings. He was indeed using ET then, not only theoretically.

Chopin was a friend of Liszt, for example. My teacher´s (Else Herold) teacher (Emil Sauer) was a pupil of Liszt. Sauer did his last recordings around 1942. So this is all not that long ago! That those ingenious pianists did not notice, that the tunings changed notably somewhere on the time axis, is not very plausible to me.

That sounds really good, Alfredo! I would probably have a chance to come to Sicily pretty soon. I'll PM you about specifics.

Hi, Bernhard,

I'm aware that Werckmeister developed and promoted ET in his last two books. I wasn't aware that people were using ET, however, or that Werckmeister was tuning harpsichords or organs to it.

I would like to read more about tuning practices in the 18th and 19th century, but I have found few sources. (About actual tunings as opposed to theory.) In Germany, the situation may be very different. In England, Ellis wrote in the 2nd edition of his translation that Broadwood tuners were not tuning to ET. His charts of tunings such as Broadwood's Best include the deviations from ET (which he saw as ideal). Am I missing other sources that show ET to have been used?

One thing, however, about Chopin: He reportedly valued Bach higher than any other predecessor, so I would strongly suspect that he used a similar tuning even if ET was popular.

However, what to me is more persuasive are the late 18th and early 19th century discussions and prescriptions for Well temperaments. If an acceptable ET could be tuned, was in fairly wide use, and was acceptable, why is the focus so often on Well temperaments or temperaments ordinaire?

But there's no sense in getting into this entire argument in the abstract. Are there German (in English translation) or other texts that you can point me to? I only know what I've read and heard, and I'm limited to English and French.

I would much rather pursue the subject in a logical way than by abstract argument. As best I can tell, based on what I've read, I think it can be said with some certainty that we do know that Chopin didn't compose on a piano tuned to ET. But I'm rational and ready to read and learn more.

Jake, I am aware that Chopin was not composing and playing on pianos in ET, or at A440, but my question is really if Chopin was fussy at all about a particular temperament. Just because some of us are titillated and see musical advantage in this artefact of keyboard design where is the justification that Chopin was. Is it likely that the various pianos that Chopin encountered were tuned unequally and with any temperament resulting from the desires and skills of tuners, musicians and on the locations. Given the historical evidence I think that Chopin would likely have been tolerant of a narrow range of temperaments, spanning near equal when it ever happened, in much the same way that must of us do today.

Maybe it's the uncertainty that fuels so much speculation and so many arguments. If only we could know...

By the way, did you like that Ingrid Fliter video of the nocturne? I do wish there was a way to hear her play in a well temperament. Too bad about those pesky kidnapping laws.