Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
94 registered members (7uturu, 17curleyj, Albert Brighten, anotherscott, agraffe, Amin7b5, 25 invisible), 1,528 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#1646385 - 03/23/11 09:09 AM Fur Elise ending  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 5
N8dGr8 Offline
Junior Member
N8dGr8  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 5
Virginia
I have a student working on Fur Elise for a recital and I was wondering if anyone here knows about the difference in the 2nd-to-last measure. Some versions have the treble in that measure as D-C-B, and some as E-C-B. The one with the D sounds a little more final, but I seem to recall reading a long time ago that this was not in the original score. I can't find anything on it now, though. Any clues? Thanks.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1646388 - 03/23/11 09:16 AM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: N8dGr8]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,028
ando Offline
5000 Post Club Member
ando  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,028
Melbourne, Australia
It's definitely meant to be E C B, - although D C B sounds perfectly fine.

#1646390 - 03/23/11 09:17 AM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: N8dGr8]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
debrucey  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
Manchester, UK
I have no idea about the autograph score, its probably lost. What I do know is I infinitely prefer the version with a D.

#1646395 - 03/23/11 09:26 AM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: debrucey]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,028
ando Offline
5000 Post Club Member
ando  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,028
Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by debrucey
I have no idea about the autograph score, its probably lost. What I do know is I infinitely prefer the version with a D.


I think the D version is not considered correct because normally you would expect Beethoven to resolve the D (7th of V7) to C in the final bar (3rd of I) - especially for a final cadence. Instead of a chord, it finishes on a solemn A note, so no way to resolve the D. I agree it sounds fine, but it's not typical of the classical period.

(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#1646402 - 03/23/11 09:33 AM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: N8dGr8]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
debrucey  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
Manchester, UK
When I play it I do resolve it to the C.

#1646405 - 03/23/11 09:36 AM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: debrucey]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,028
ando Offline
5000 Post Club Member
ando  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,028
Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by debrucey
When I play it I do resolve it to the C.


Oh, ok! Then you are changing 2 notes. That's fine with me. I don't think classical music needs to be as strict as it is anyway. I don't have a problem with little changes that the performer prefers. So do you have the two A's in the bass and a C and A in the treble?

#1646406 - 03/23/11 09:38 AM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: N8dGr8]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
debrucey  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
Manchester, UK
That is correct. I agree that if you're going to finish on just the As then its best to use an E instead of a D.

#1646408 - 03/23/11 09:42 AM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: debrucey]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,028
ando Offline
5000 Post Club Member
ando  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,028
Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by debrucey
That is correct. I agree that if you're going to finish on just the As then its best to use an E instead of a D.


It's funny because right throughout the piece, he does use the D version without resolving to the C. I think Beethoven just really cared that his final cadences resolved properly, that's why he made the final one with the E. You have created your own solution though.

#1646425 - 03/23/11 10:19 AM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: N8dGr8]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
debrucey  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
Manchester, UK
It's hardly my own. There are zillions of recordings throughout the 20th century of pianists doing this.

#1646502 - 03/23/11 12:09 PM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: N8dGr8]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,159
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
liszt85  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,159
I use D's throughout.. I never noticed that the last measure was different. :|


Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)
#1646505 - 03/23/11 12:11 PM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: N8dGr8]  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
debrucey  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,607
Manchester, UK
Ah now thats interesting. I only use a D right at the end.

#1646507 - 03/23/11 12:13 PM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: N8dGr8]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,159
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
liszt85  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,159
I'll try all E's and D at the end. You try all D's and let me know what you think. :P No point discussing theory though as these guys took liberties that normal human beings wouldn't. The fur elise looks simple but it isn't all that simple a piece really. Beethoven's just playing games with us.


Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)
#1646509 - 03/23/11 12:18 PM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: N8dGr8]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 933
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member
daviel  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 933
Waxahachie, Texas
I have one edition with all Ds and another with all Es and D at the end. The version I hear most often just has D at the end.


"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."
David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas
#1646526 - 03/23/11 12:47 PM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: N8dGr8]  
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,645
Akira Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Akira  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,645
Los Angeles, CA
Lots of discussion over one silly note. smile

But to answer your question, I don't think there are any clues.

The piece was published 40 years after Beethoven's death, making clarification of his notoriously sloppy handwriting impossible. So sloppy, that it could have been nicknamed 'Fur Therese' for all we know (Elise was never identified).

Personally, I like the idea of "D," but don't think you'll find any raised eyebrows from the recital listeners if you use either.

#1646529 - 03/23/11 12:55 PM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: N8dGr8]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,159
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
liszt85  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,159
I tried both. I am going to stick to playing all D's as I've been doing. I like that better (possibly because I've heard that more because I play it like that :P)


Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)
#1646549 - 03/23/11 01:31 PM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: N8dGr8]  
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 5
N8dGr8 Offline
Junior Member
N8dGr8  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 5
Virginia
Thanks for all the input- I guess I'll just show her the possibilities and let her make a choice. I had never even seen versions with D throughout- only different endings.

#1646570 - 03/23/11 02:17 PM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: N8dGr8]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,159
liszt85 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
liszt85  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,159
Check the thread in the teacher's forum. Somebody has the urtext edition and it says all D's.


Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)
#1646722 - 03/23/11 06:27 PM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: Akira]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member
stores  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by Akira
Lots of discussion over one silly note. smile



It's not at all one silly note. One note can change everything. What if, for example, an orchestra's librarian gets hold of a bad edition of Beethoven's Fifth, which contains a monumental error by incorporating a natural sign next to that first eflat which is part of arguably the most famous four note motif ever penned. I imagine there would be a ton of questions, yes?

You are correct, however, in that there's no way to know for sure with "Elise", because the autograph is long gone (there are sketches, though).



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

#1646791 - 03/23/11 08:46 PM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: N8dGr8]  
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,451
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member
ChopinAddict  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,451
Land of the never-ending music
I agree the one note can change everything, like stores said, particularly at the end... (it leaves a sort of aftertaste)



[Linked Image]

Music is my best friend.


#1646797 - 03/23/11 08:51 PM Re: Fur Elise ending [Re: stores]  
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,645
Akira Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Akira  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,645
Los Angeles, CA
When you put it that way, you're right. Its doubtful the sun would rise tomorrow.

It might be helpful to connect my comment to the context of the thread.

I'll rephrase.

"For the purposes of a small (piano teacher's) recital, I don't think one silly little note, that could easily go either way, would raise any eyebrows."

Is that more palatable? smile


Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
What do you think?
by Gemgem. 05/25/17 11:13 PM
Has anyone played a 3-Sensor Fatar TP100 action?
by anotherscott. 05/25/17 06:26 PM
Sound Bar speakers
by peterws. 05/25/17 06:14 PM
What a difference regulation makes!
by JodyT. 05/25/17 05:58 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Report Problems With New Forums
Report Problems with New Forums Here!
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics179,881
Posts2,629,784
Members87,887
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0