Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Kawai MP-10 Statement

Kawai rocks! Kawai makes some of the absolute best consumer grade acoustic pianos in the world and I absolutely love my RX-2.

However, as Kawai James has repeated here on numerous occasions: you should only buy a piano from a local dealer that allows you to audition the instrument and who will be around to service it. For most of us, given that there are none at all local retail outlets that are interested in selling and servicing Kawai and actually do so, that will mean being forced to choose a different brand that is sold and supported by our local dealers.

We have some amazing Mom and Pop music stores where I live. Many of them deserve our business and we will have to respect the decisions they make in merchandising and editing the assortments they choose to offer to the consumer, which here locally means Yamaha, Roland, Korg and Nord.

However, there will also always be those who play the full lineup of Yamaha and Roland digital pianos locally and then order their unit from a dealer offering a competitive price whether or not they are the closest dealer. What really are they risking? After all, how many threads have we read on this forum about Yamaha or Roland pianos being DOA or needing technical servicing from a local dealer?

Actually it's not such a good thing if all retailing trends towards online. It means you will not be able to try anything out before buying. Relying on user reviews doesn't get around the problem of buying "feel" related products. Some things you need to try to know if you want it. I think it's pretty unethical when people spend an afternoon in a real store trying everything out, asking questions, taking brochures, and then walk out the door to go home and find it online. Don't you think that privilege of trying it out is worth something? Are we not all part of a community? Wouldn't it be better to support people in our local area? The attitude of "cheapest always wins" has costs that aren't immediately apparent, but they are there and you will discover it eventually.

In today's market place, the real store is struggling to compete and they will drop their price to the lowest they can. That's the price that I think is fair to pay - especially if you use their instruments to make your decision. People who go to a store and waste somebody's time with no intention of buying there are unethical. I look forward to the day that governments rethink their tax policies to give real retailers a chance to compete with onliners. Geez, don't we spend enough time indoors at home channeling our whole lives through our computers?

voxpops, I'm in the UK now. My travel arrangements were changed, so I ended up flying out of Osaka (Kansai) on Monday morning, rather than Tokyo (Narita) on Saturday afternoon.

As I believe I may have mentioned in a separate thread, my trip to England was booked several weeks ago. While it's obviously nice to catch-up with my family after a few years away, I feel a strong desire to return to my adopted homeland and contribute to Japan in whatever way I can.

Regarding the situation at Kawai, I believe everything at the head office in Hamamatsu is running as normal, however a number of Kawai stores and music schools in the north of the country have been affected. All Kawai employees are being encouraged to donate towards relief/rebuilding efforts.

Kind regards,
James
x

How about if you go to your local dealer and spend hours of their time auditioning their Roland, Yamaha, Korg and Nord pianos that they have displayed at considerable expense and merchandising risk and then you go and buy a Kawai from the only source possible -- a dealer far away. Isn't that even more unethical in your book?

Successful manufacturers realize that they are not just responsible for putting together a decent keyboard, but that they must actually also dominate the entire supply chain from marketing to package design to dealer network building in order to be able to solve the problems of their consumers: their playing problems but also their selection and shopping problems.

For reliable, mainstream instruments that are designed right, manufactured with care, packaged and shipped professionally, etc. the value added from having a place to audition is actually quite small: much smaller than the cost that a local dealer must spend in order to provide these services in most cases.

How do most people buy stage pianos these days? You ask around, read publications and forums, you try one out wherever you can or you just order it and return it if you don't like it.

The conundrum for Kawai is that their top of the line hybrid wood/plastic product seems to not be able to be shipped reliably and needs the most attention from a local dealer to correct regulation problems while at the same time they have some of the spottiest local retail distribution in the business. The fact that they still sell so many instruments is a true and paramount monument to the brand loyalty of their existing customers and to the perceived quality of their products. Chapeau.

+ 1 Extremely well put ando.

Quick story on my Nord...but when I went to buy it, the guys quoted me a price which including local sales tax of 9.25% put me about $250 north of what I knew I could get online. That $250 could've got me the NP88 plus the Nord gig bag. But I went in the store several times, talked to the guys quite a bit, and decided that $250 was worth the satisfaction of knowing I'm helping the place out.

Well, I encourage consumers to support local dealers, especially if they feel that the store provides a pleasant environment in which to play-test various instruments, and the sales staff are accommodating to their needs. However, I don't believe I've ever stated that consumers should only purchase from local dealers.

Kind regards,
James
x

Ouch!!! Mr. KAWAI-bashing is back! Is it all starting over again??? It was so nice and peaceful the last few months with reasonable statements from all contributors in this forum. The conundrum for theJourney is: Why do good things always come to an end?

No, that's different because you are trying competing products in good faith. ie, you haven't decided before you even go in there that you aren't going to buy anything from them. I'm talking about how some people don't even engage in talk of a deal with the salesperson because they just want to use their shop to play around then buy elsewhere. Surely people should give retailers a chance to get close to those online retailers?

are any of you store owners by any chance?

Not I.

You can't try them out anyway at least not at the same store you would buy them from. The only store where you could reasonably expect to see a range of stage piano's in either Melbourne or Sydney is Allens big city store and they price everything at full retail plus even more sometimes.
Online retailing with generous return policies slaughters the pathetic excuse for musical retailing we have in Australia. I travel all over the world playing and Australia is the worst country for music stores in terms of stock, knowledge, competition, service and pricing.
Online retailing is run in Australia by a few small specialist stores that generally know more, stock more, and price less then the big stores like Allens.

LOL..........you wanna come over here to NZ, I think Aussie will get a run for it's money in that regard!!!!.......

We're such a small market, that the importer is basically the same as the retailer retailer which means if you want Nord product for example and you've had a bad run with the ONLY retailer chain that has them........you're screwed......... the game Monopoly comes to mind.........

oh by the way, completely ON topic, big thumbs up and thanks to Kawai, and specifically KawaiDon for coming forward with an announcement on what's happening to resolve the issue. Really good to see and just shows Kawais level of commitment to their customers and also probably a bit of Kaizen being pratised too.

Yes. I understand. This is certainly an issue for traditional retailers, especially with the availability of relatively high levels of service and low prices from (inter)national web and mail order companies. However, from the point of view of the consumer, I think it is hard to say categorically that it is unethical to not buy from a (local) store that you have shopped at. If you went shopping for a new suit you wouldn't feel strange not buying it from the store that didn't have a friendly and competent tailor with the suit you wanted that fit you for the price you wanted. Why would it be different for digital pianos?

1. What happens if you have three local stores to choose your Kawai MP10 from? Is it unethical to shop at all three? If you shop at all three, is it unethical to choose the one you want to buy from for your own personal reasons? Is it unethical to only buy from one at all, or should you buy the stage piano from one, the bench from the second and the pedal unit from the third to reward them all somewhat for having spent time with you and demonstrated the products?

2. What happens if, as James mentions, there is also the matter of your comfort with a given dealer. If you aren't treated well by the local dealer, or you don't trust them after the sales talk, or they weren't very helpful and didn't have product knowledge, are you still ethically obligated to buy from them?

3. What if the only thing you disagree on is the terms and conditions of the sale in general and the price in particular and the local dealer without providing any additional delivery or other service wants to charge you 20% more than a direct channel. You did spend an in his store after all. Are you still ethically obligated to buy from him or her making that hour one of your most costliest hours spent anywhere ever?

4. You might also have spent an hour on the phone with an experienced and knowledgeable product specialist at the out of town direct sales retailer. Are you not under a similar obligation to buy from them? Especially if they were offering better advice and faster delivery besides their lower price?

I am sure you will agree that it is a bit more complicated than simply saying that it is unethical.

The best way for a local dealer to make the sale is to merchandise and stock the products that are right for their local market, ensure having the product in stock and being able to deliver it faster and easier than an out of town dealer and to set prices that are equivalent to or not unreasonably higher than the market level street price that anyone with an internet connection can control. That is what our most successful local retailer does and he sells digital pianos by the full truckload every quarter.

"...should you buy the stage piano from one, the bench from the second and the pedal unit from the third to reward them all somewhat...?"

This is what I've done, partly to try to be fair with all, and partly from the angle of enlightened self-interest, which tells me that I would like all the music places to be there for me next time. Also, it's good for me if the retailers know who I am and what my interests are, when I look in at their place of business... even if that 'place' is at the end of a wire.

I believe I made this point very clearly but I'll state it one more time. I believe it is unethical to use a store as your personal try-out park if you have no intention of even talking to the staff about their best deal. There are people out there who assume that online is always the cheapest, and they use stores to try things, tell the salesperson they are just looking, then go home and order it online. I would like to see people who visit stores at least support them to the extent that they give them a chance to compete ie. engage in some bargaining and see what they can do for you. I also think that paying a little bit more is usually worth it to establish a solid relationship with a local supplier. That will usually lead to better deals and better service in the future. Quite often, once shipping and insurance are factored in, the real store is pretty competitive - it's just that the myth of Online is where the bargains are has really taken hold. They have collected plenty of data in recent years which shows the retail sector is shrinking and online is growing. This has many negative flow on effects for the community.

Playing stores off against each other isn't unethical because they are all in a position to compete for your business and their showrooms are there to persuade you to consider them. I am talking about the type of person who has already decided where they are going to buy something (online) and using real stores for playing, pretending they are interested to salespeople (wasting their time), collecting brochures, lying by saying, "I'll have to think about it", then going home and clicking Buy This Item with a mouse.

If we extend the logic of always going by price, eventually there will be practically no physical stores and we will all be buying things untried. Make no mistake, retail is haemorrhaging at the moment from competition from online sellers. Online sellers are exempt from a lot of expenses and taxes that real retailers have to pay. It's generally bad for our society to support things that shrink the workforce and reduce public capital. Yes, I know people will generally go with price despite anything I say. It still depresses me to think how things are trending.

+1 ando

With this caveat: we all do things that are unethical from time to time, so I wouldn't censure folks whose transgressions are slightly different from mine. However, if you find you are lying in order to get ahead, that's not usually a good thing.

At the other end of this discussion is this question: how healthy is it for our lives to become more and more connected to a computer screen, and less and less connected to real people? Yes, I enjoy this forum and the shared advice, and the sense of community, but it is no substitute for real, in-the-flesh relationships, (don't take that the wrong way), like shopping in our own community.

lol I just can't imagine people raising such a stink about buying online.

No one is - read the posts carefully. A particular situation is being described. If after having read it, you still think it's the way to go, go for it. It just means you are part of the "me" generation.


For the record, there are lots of things I buy online. I just don't use normal retailers, spending hours of their time and pretending like I'm going to buy from them, then go home and buy online. If I am on the fence, I'll tell the salesperson upfront that I have seen the same product online and state the price - then I ask how low can they go. Sometimes they will match or get pretty close. If they can't get close enough, I leave and stop wasting their time.

why not. Because major retailers wanted to make you waste your gas by making you step into their store they are now a product for your ogling pleasure.

For instance while sifting through some kawai's I noticed the store carried the p155 (Gotta say the keys nice but not great, and with a good set of speakers I think the sound could be great) He wanted to sell it and the stand for I think 1400 plus tax.

I mentioned I could get not only the keyboard and stand but also the bench and bunch of other crap in a bundle for less. Yet he remained that the good price was there, even though from the looks of it that keyboard had sat with it's freind dust for a bit.