Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Hurricane Irma & Our Piano Friends!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Tuning a Piano
How to Tune Pianos
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Schumann's 4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Who's Online Now
101 registered members (amad23, accordeur, Agent88, anotherscott, Almaviva, alfredo capurso, 28 invisible), 1,789 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#1633363 - 03/04/11 01:20 PM New PC Piano Tuning Software  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 928
johnlewisgrant Offline
500 Post Club Member
johnlewisgrant  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 928
canada
This one's called "Dirks piano tuner." It seems different from the others on the market, because the program starts by getting the tuner to strike and record (with the program) all 88 strings (one string only per note). It then analyzes all of the information (which apparantly can take up to a minute or 2, depending on the power of your processor), and produces a stretch. The stretch is never smooth, but jumpy, which you would expect in the real world, as each string has its own unique sonic footprint. (So it's like Verituner, in that respect). But Verituner (which I own) does continuous updates/refinements of the stretch, if you choose to allow it. This program admits only 2 recordings of the note.

Anyone heard about it, or have experience with it?



(ad 800)
PTG 2017 Convention
PTG Convention 2017 St Louis
#1633417 - 03/04/11 03:15 PM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961
RPD Offline
500 Post Club Member
RPD  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961
Kalamazoo Michigan
No, but playing every note would seem pretty slow, right off the bat...TLab measures all the C's or whatever you decide, and calculates quickly. I'd have to be sold on inputing ALL 88 notes...especially since much of what I personally do is fly the last top and bottom octaves by ear anyway...

Thanks for the heads up, though...

RPD


MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America)
Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association)
(Subscriber PTG Journal)
Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician
www.actionpianoservice.com
DEALER Hailun Pianos
#1633736 - 03/04/11 10:11 PM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,198
Les Koltvedt Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Les Koltvedt  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,198
Canton, MI
RPD, you could do every note in Tunelab...if you really wanted to


Les Koltvedt
LK Piano
Servicing the S. Eastern Michigan Area
PTG Associate
#1633768 - 03/04/11 11:16 PM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: Les Koltvedt]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,414
DoelKees Offline
2000 Post Club Member
DoelKees  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,414
Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted by Les Koltvedt
RPD, you could do every note in Tunelab...if you really wanted to


But the information would not be used as it just fits a smooth curve through your data.

This Dirk's program is interesting as it claims to use all partial of all notes to compute a "best tuning". Unfortunately Dirk doesn't specify what he considers a "best tuning" to be. And it's not really practical to play every note twice, then wait a while while the program analyzes things, then start tuning.

Not being a practical person I'd like to try it out but unfortunately the "demo version" has almost no functionality and I'm not about to pay 268 Euros to find out it does not work.

Kees

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1633789 - 03/05/11 12:14 AM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gadzar  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
I am not a software designer, but I wonder why many programs in the market, have been designed to first calculate a tuning curve, before begining to tune.

If I were to design a piano tuning program, I would try to make calculations on the fly, while tuning, just as an aural tuner does it.

All aural tuners follow a tuning sequence and they don't have to know in advance what the target for a note could be.

I think, in that sense, Onlypure and Verituner are the unique programs that make their calculations this way (on the fly). The user has only one restriction: tune A4 first (and A3 second in the case of Verituner), from there he can tune any note in any order.

In the case of Dirk's program, in the time the user gathers info for the program another tuner can do a pitch raise or a coarse tuning!






Last edited by Gadzar; 03/05/11 02:21 AM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
#1633847 - 03/05/11 01:17 AM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: Gadzar]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,414
DoelKees Offline
2000 Post Club Member
DoelKees  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,414
Vancouver, Canada
Rafael:

The reason is the same that as an aural tuner you may have to backtrack. For example if you tune a nice temperament octave you may discover later on that the piano requires a lot of stretch and your temperament octave need to be stretched a bit too. So you have to go back and make another pass.

In other words, the best tuning for a piano depends on how its complete scale behaves. So to compute the "perfect" tuning for a piano according to some criteria you need to know how it is scaled, and in principle you need to know the partial structure of each note before you can determine that.

Practical ETD's shortcut this procedure, otherwise they would not be practical, and Dirk's program is not practical as you observed correctly. But his principle is correct, and I'm very curious what tuning would result from his approach.

It could be made practical if anyone can figure out a way to play octave clusters (C1-B1 chromatically same time), and decompose the sounds into 12 notes and do a partials analysis on each. So you'd play 8 octave clusters, then it computes the tuning and off you go. Not sure if that is possible.

Cheers,
Kees

#1633877 - 03/05/11 02:10 AM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gadzar  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
The problem I see with this calculated tuning curves, is that the user has always to adjust them in some measure to fit each different piano.

So, why to waist time to estimate a curve that anyway will be modified by the user? Unless the programmer is assuming the tuning will be in fact the better tuning for this piano, if such a thing exists.

IMO, it is a question of personal preferences, so the better tuning does not exist!

The first time I tune a piano I have to trust my Verituner and modify the way it stretches the piano if I don't like the results, just as in aural tuning. I think this is the better approach.

I wouldn't like an unflexible program that imposes a given stretch scheme. For me it has to give me the option to stretch the piano as I want.

The user is supposed to be a competent tuner, not a beginner who doesn't know how to set the ETD. The software is a tool, not the master.


Last edited by Gadzar; 03/05/11 02:12 AM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
#1633879 - 03/05/11 02:15 AM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: Gadzar]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,414
DoelKees Offline
2000 Post Club Member
DoelKees  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,414
Vancouver, Canada
Rafael: I completely agree.

I'm just curious what Dirk did, that's all.

Kees

#1633995 - 03/05/11 09:35 AM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,959
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member
RonTuner  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,959
Chicagoland
It may be worth the time to download the demo that just calculates for A's and E's - just to get a preview of the overall stretch. Sounds similar to the onlypure in that there isn't any user input to alter what the machine thinks is "perfect". (we all know how that sometimes works on smaller instruments!)

The needle display scale doesn't look fine enough for fine tuning, but the cents number would be a help.

Somehow it self-calibrates the soundcard?

I didn't see an overpull function in the manual.

Ron Koval

#1634203 - 03/05/11 03:24 PM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: RonTuner]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,414
DoelKees Offline
2000 Post Club Member
DoelKees  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,414
Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted by RonTuner
It may be worth the time to download the demo that just calculates for A's and E's - just to get a preview of the overall stretch. Sounds similar to the onlypure in that there isn't any user input to alter what the machine thinks is "perfect". (we all know how that sometimes works on smaller instruments!)

The needle display scale doesn't look fine enough for fine tuning, but the cents number would be a help.

Somehow it self-calibrates the soundcard?

I didn't see an overpull function in the manual.

Ron Koval

I tried it. The "self calibration" takes 5 minutes. I am a bit worried that the 5 minutes are used to hunt for credit card information on my computer as the software does not work if I don't let it past my firewall.

Apply caution!

Kees

#1634229 - 03/05/11 03:57 PM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: DoelKees]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 336
Robert Scott Offline
Full Member
Robert Scott  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 336
Minnesota
Originally Posted by DoelKees

I tried it. The "self calibration" takes 5 minutes. I am a bit worried that the 5 minutes are used to hunt for credit card information on my computer as the software does not work if I don't let it past my firewall.

Apply caution!

Kees

I'll bet he is using Network Time Protocol and accessing a NTP server on the Internet. According to the Wikipedia article on NTP, it is capable of synchronizing clocks to within 1/100 of a second over the Internet. So if he uses a 5 minute sample with a possible error of 1/100 second at the start and at the end of the 5 minute period, then the maximum error is 2/100 of a second. So if he is measuring the sound card sampling rate by counting samples over a 5 minute period, his maximum error would be 1 part in 15000, which works out to about 0.12 cents, which is just about the accuracy he is claiming. Now if he had just run the calibration for an hour instead of 5 minutes, then he could have calibrated to 0.01 cent accuracy.


Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com
#1634493 - 03/05/11 11:08 PM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,459
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member
daniokeeper  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,459
PA
Quote
The user has only one restriction: tune A4 first (and A3 second in the case of Verituner), from there he can tune any note in any order.


Hi Rafael,

I sometimes like to go back to the original "One-Touch" idea of the Verituner.

If the piano is very close to 440, I have gotten some nice results starting in Fine Mode simply starting at A4 and then tuning downward chromatically. Then, from A#4 upwards. I have only tried this with the default styles.

Edit: No recalc along the way.

Last edited by daniokeeper; 03/05/11 11:11 PM.

Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
#1634809 - 03/06/11 12:30 PM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gadzar  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Hi Joe,

Interesting. I always thought it was not possible, because the program needed to know the iH of A4 and A3 for its calculations.

I've tuned alot of pianos, when they are at pitch, starting directly in Fine mode, but I always tune A4 and A3 first, then from the break up to C8 and last from the break down to A0.



Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
#1634822 - 03/06/11 01:02 PM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 515
wayne walker Offline
500 Post Club Member
wayne walker  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 515
Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
I tuned A4 then A3, and A5, A6 A2 A1, which gives a good sample for the Verituner. I start tune at the tenor break up to C8 and the work down highest bass to A0


Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/
#1635684 - 03/07/11 02:33 PM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member
pppat  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted by quote from Dirk’s Piano Tuner V4.0 | User Manual

Detectable pitch differences

The smallest by human ear detectable pitch difference is approximately 2 Hertz. The accuracy of the tuner of 0.1 Hertz is many times better. This high accuracy is necessary to measure the beatings between two strings. A difference in beating of more than approximately 0.1 Hertz is already detectable by the human ear.


So, 440 -> 442 Hz is barely detectable... 8 cents?

Last edited by pppat; 03/07/11 02:34 PM.

Patrick Wingren, RPT

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
#1635863 - 03/07/11 05:55 PM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,166
rysowers Offline
3000 Post Club Member
rysowers  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,166
Olympia, WA
That is wacky! I think he must have gotten cents and hertz mixed up! Also, his statement appears contradictory!

BTW - here is an interesting test:
http://www.tonometric.com/adaptivepitch/
This will test your accuracy of pitch discrimination. I took it twice and did better the second time when I realized you could replay the pitches more than once. Of course, the statistics could be a little flawed if certain people decided to use an electronic device to "cheat" on the test. According to the test own ability seems to be around .6 Hz. My 8-year-old got 1.35 Hz.


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
#1635973 - 03/07/11 08:27 PM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: rysowers]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,445
Chris Leslie Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Chris Leslie  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,445
Canberra, ACT, Australia
Quote
BTW - here is an interesting test:
http://www.tonometric.com/adaptivepitch/
This will test your accuracy of pitch discrimination. I took it twice and did better the second time when I realized you could replay the pitches more than once. Of course, the statistics could be a little flawed if certain people decided to use an electronic device to "cheat" on the test. According to the test own ability seems to be around .6 Hz. My 8-year-old got 1.35 Hz.

Pass at 0.75Hz cool
Fail at 0.375 frown


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
#1636073 - 03/07/11 11:26 PM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: Chris Leslie]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 387
pyropaul Offline
Full Member
pyropaul  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 387
Montreal
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Quote
BTW - here is an interesting test:
http://www.tonometric.com/adaptivepitch/
This will test your accuracy of pitch discrimination. I took it twice and did better the second time when I realized you could replay the pitches more than once. Of course, the statistics could be a little flawed if certain people decided to use an electronic device to "cheat" on the test. According to the test own ability seems to be around .6 Hz. My 8-year-old got 1.35 Hz.

Pass at 0.75Hz cool
Fail at 0.375 frown


I was passing at 0.75Hz almost all of the time and at 0.375Hz about 2 out of 3 times smile

Paul.

#1636465 - 03/08/11 11:11 AM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 295
Jim Moy Offline
Full Member
Jim Moy  Offline
Full Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 295
Fort Collins - Loveland, CO
Pass 0.75, fail 0.375.


Jim Moy, RPT
Moy Piano Service, LLC
Fort Collins and Loveland, Colorado
http://www.moypiano.com
#1636472 - 03/08/11 11:32 AM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,749
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,749
Bradford County, PA
Got a score of 0.45 Hz. I don't understand the Pass/Fail scores that were posted.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1636476 - 03/08/11 11:35 AM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gadzar  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
First pass, without repeating any tones: 5.4 hz 16th percentile eek
2nd pass, with repetitions: 0.375 hz 97.5th percentile. wink

Anyway, when tuning a piano I hear to beats so I do little use of pitch discrimination. Sometimes in the high treble I use to pluck strings to hear which is higher or lower. But most of the time I go by discriminating if the beat rate increased or decreased.


Last edited by Gadzar; 03/08/11 11:41 AM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
#1636618 - 03/08/11 02:30 PM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,166
rysowers Offline
3000 Post Club Member
rysowers  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,166
Olympia, WA
It would be interesting to see if scores would change based on a higher or lower tone. I wonder if our ears are more discriminating in the upper octaves of the piano or more in the midrange.

It would also be interesting to have a test to see how sensitive the ear is to a detuned unison.


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
#1636833 - 03/08/11 06:43 PM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member
pppat  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,203
Jakobstad, Finland
This was fun - I also got into that same range as many others here: Pass 0.75, fail 0.375.

I did one pass with headphones, then with monitor speakers and I found the latter harder to take.

And yes, Ryan, I also think it would be interesting if there where other pitch ranges too.


Patrick Wingren, RPT

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
#1636852 - 03/08/11 07:22 PM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,414
DoelKees Offline
2000 Post Club Member
DoelKees  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,414
Vancouver, Canada
0.525 and I don't understand the pass/fail postings either.

Kees

#1637151 - 03/09/11 05:46 AM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: DoelKees]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Mark R.  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
I took this test last year, using monitor speakers.

I think that the guys who post "fail" and "pass" frequencies here, didn't proceed to the results page. They only used the pitch difference that they could mostly recognize, and the one that they mostly couldn't. But, once you're done with the test, you can proceed to a results page. The software calculates, from your exact numbers of "fails" and "passes", your individual threshold.

Without repeating test notes, I came to about 1 to 2 Hz. With repeats, I came to 0.3 Hz.

Last edited by Mark R.; 03/09/11 05:48 AM.

Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
#1637191 - 03/09/11 08:26 AM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,749
UnrightTooner Offline
5000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,749
Bradford County, PA
Sort of reminds me of when I was learning to tune. My teacher detuned one string of a unison a bit and another a bit more. Then he muted different strings and asked me if the unison was in tune or not. We only did this once and for just a few minutes.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
#1639900 - 03/12/11 11:49 PM Re: New PC Piano Tuning Software [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,336
KawaiDon Offline
1000 Post Club Member
KawaiDon  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,336
Orange County, CA
Thanks for the links to the tone test. Neat.
I was unreliable at the .09 hz level, and ended up with a score of .2 Hz in the final score.

But in tuning we tuners do much better than this. I want to do the test with both tones sounding at once, then put them in tune to find out which was sharp or flat. Easy!

Don Mannino


Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
K331 Sonata in A
by peterws. 09/24/17 03:44 PM
Double crowned sounding board
by Davepost. 09/24/17 09:04 AM
SSD for samples, NTFS or FAT32
by stamkorg. 09/24/17 07:19 AM
K 545 Trills
by Qazsedcft. 09/23/17 11:04 PM
ES8, what I will miss the most
by EVC2017. 09/23/17 08:06 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics182,002
Posts2,659,831
Members88,883
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0