Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
125 registered members (anotherscott, Albunea, agraffe, augustm, agent8698, 36 invisible), 1,861 guests, and 7 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
#1639384 - 03/12/11 07:47 AM Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin??  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
Just moved this from the Totally Devoted thread on AFB where it was pretty much being ignored.

Originally Posted by J.A.S
Article (in Polish) with the photo:
Unknown photo of Chopin on deathbed found

Photo only: Photo only

My translation of fragments of the article:

Unknown photo of Chopin on deathbed found
Władysław Żuchowski, a photographer, purchased from a private Scottish collector a dagerotype showing dying Fryderyk Chopin. Experts examine authenticity of the negative, but most of them already have doubts.
[...]
The author of the photo is Louis Auguste Bisson, a French photographer known from another, earlier picture of the pianist. The first name and surname of the famous Pole is written on an attached piece of paper.
[...]
According to Alicja Knast, curator of the Chopin Museum in Warsaw, there is no evidence that the dagerotype pictures Chopin and there is a whole market of similar false documents.

Małgorzata Grabczewska, a photography expert, Polish Library in Paris, doubts the authenticity of the dagerotype. According to her, Bisson never dated his negatives or signed them with his name. “The dagerotype is beyond doubt from the 19th century, but is it actually the deathbed photographed by Bisson?” she asked rhetorically.





Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1639387 - 03/12/11 07:51 AM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
[Linked Image]

Here it is without all that pesky advertising. Thanks for posting this JAS. I'm surprized all the Chopinoholics haven't been all over it today. It looks quite a bit like him. I'm sure there's a reason for that. One way to fake it would be to coif a copy of the "peaceful" death mask with an appropriate wig and do some creative posing and lighting. If it's a fake it would have to have been done in a similar way as a daguerreotype has no negative to interfere with. But who knows? According to one source some photographers did show up and were shown the door by Adolph Gutmann when they started to move Chopin's body to get it into a better light.


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
#1639390 - 03/12/11 07:54 AM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member
stores  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Here, as opposed to there
At very first glance, it doesn't look to me like the Chopin (we know) of late 1849, but a much younger Chopin. Something about the image doesn't convince me, but I can't put my finger on it just yet.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

#1639391 - 03/12/11 07:59 AM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
It looks a lot like some of the very idealized liknesses of him around. It might be a total fake (even a photograph of a drawn image like the Cottingley fairy photographs) or it might be an actual dead guy who happened to look a lot like him, but as Stores said, younger, opportunistically misidentifed.


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#1639407 - 03/12/11 08:44 AM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,886
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Andromaque  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,886
New York
I would agree that it does not look like like the known photograph of Chopin, but that could be misleading. Postmortem appearance is often different. The face looks youngish, but could be 39, I imagine, though Chopin was an older looking 39.. Probably not real. Fascinating nonetheless..

#1639419 - 03/12/11 09:33 AM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
Chopin did look young for his age all his adult life. Even when he was very ill, in England before his last concert, someone described him as a "frail looking young man of thirty."


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
#1639424 - 03/12/11 09:48 AM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,886
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Andromaque  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,886
New York
I guess I am influenced by that famous photograph, where he also looks almost uncomfortable. Was it taken towards the end of his life? But obviously live accounts are more reliable.

#1639430 - 03/12/11 09:59 AM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,983
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member
lilylady  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,983
boston north
He looks 'healthy' here.

Dates? Well, if you were going to take a photo of a famous composer, you might date that one photograph if no others.

Oh, and we DO look different standing up from laying down. Try it sometime!


"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."
#1639432 - 03/12/11 10:04 AM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,039
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member
tomasino  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,039
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Are there any photographs of Chopin from the side that are considered to be authentic? I don't ever recall seeing any. And if not, it seems quite a leap to say this looks like him. Even if we were viewing straight-on frontal views, the differences in lighting, contrast, and decay of very old images, makes a meaningful comparison a very dicey proposition.

Also, the aesthetic quality of the photograph fits a little too well into the mystique of Chopin and his music. As Frycek suggested above, it seems idealized--the side view, the very handsome nature of the side profile, the top lighting of the face, and the nicely done shadow molding along the cheek. It seems to me that a photographer would have had to have been given quite a bit of leeway to arrange such a shot.

All that's left to suggest that this may be Chopin is the photographer's signature and the ascribed identity of the corpse--assuming it is a corpse--a corpse that may possibly have gotten up and walked away.


Tomasino


"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10

#1639585 - 03/12/11 02:33 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: stores]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,352
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,352
New York
Originally Posted by stores
At very first glance, it doesn't look to me like the Chopin (we know) of late 1849, but a much younger Chopin....

yes

Originally Posted by -Frycek
It looks a lot like some of the very idealized liknesses of him around.....

yes

Originally Posted by lilylady
He looks 'healthy' here....

yes smile


"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
#1639599 - 03/12/11 02:49 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,039
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member
tomasino  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,039
Minneapolis, Minnesota
This image is said to depict Frederic Chopin on his deathbed. I don't see any photographers there.

Tomasino

[Linked Image]



"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10

#1639624 - 03/12/11 03:28 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
grin


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
#1639627 - 03/12/11 03:32 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: tomasino]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,886
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Andromaque  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,886
New York
Originally Posted by tomasino
This image is said to depict Frederic Chopin on his deathbed. I don't see any photographers there.

Tomasino

[Linked Image]



The photographer was obviously taking that picture!!

Who is atthe piano?

#1639634 - 03/12/11 03:40 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
That's supposed to be Delphina Potocka, a Polish countess, an old friend, and very possibly an old flame, who actually did come to see him and sang for him at his request, though I doubt very seriously that she was wearing Grecian robes at the time. She had to stop midway as Chopin was too overcome with sadness for her to continue. That engraving dates from something like the 1880's. (And there definitely wasn't a nun.)

These sketchs are the most authentic perimortem depictions of Chopin other than the death mask. It was drawn by Chopin's friend artist Teofil Kwiatkowski who was there and later painted several variations of the actual death bed for various friends of Chopin.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]




Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
#1639651 - 03/12/11 03:57 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,983
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member
lilylady  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,983
boston north
He would have apparently changed hair styles while in recline

(flipped)

[Linked Image]


"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."
#1639697 - 03/12/11 05:16 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,917
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Palindrome  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,917
Chicago, IL USA
Originally Posted by -Frycek
One way to fake it would be to coif a copy of the "peaceful" death mask


There's a death mask?

Originally Posted by lilylady
...we DO look different standing up from laying down....


GRAMMAR POLICE!!! LYING down.


There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians
#1639705 - 03/12/11 05:24 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: Palindrome]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member
stores  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by Palindrome

There's a death mask?



Yes. There are two, in fact. One most people have seen and one most haven't. (I'd be willing to bet that Frycek has photos of them).
It's truly an interesting daguerreotype, but I don't at all believe it's Chopin.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

#1639710 - 03/12/11 05:30 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: stores]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,917
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Palindrome  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,917
Chicago, IL USA
I should have searched before asking:

[Linked Image]



There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians
#1639716 - 03/12/11 05:35 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,451
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member
ChopinAddict  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,451
Land of the never-ending music
The nose looks straighter (maybe this is what some members mean with "idealized"), but as for his age, I think he could be 39... Unfortunately though, Chopin was very sick when he died and in reality he looked older...
I don't think it is him, but I cannot exclude it 100%.



[Linked Image]

Music is my best friend.


#1639719 - 03/12/11 05:39 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: stores]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by Palindrome

There's a death mask?



Yes. There are two, in fact. One most people have seen and one most haven't. (I'd be willing to bet that Frycek has photos of them).
It's truly an interesting daguerreotype, but I don't at all believe it's Chopin.


Actually, there were three death masks made but only the one depicted above is fit for family viewing. (He looks way too dead in the other two.) (Anyone interested, PM me if you like.


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
#1639740 - 03/12/11 06:02 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member
stores  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by -Frycek
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by Palindrome

There's a death mask?



Yes. There are two, in fact. One most people have seen and one most haven't. (I'd be willing to bet that Frycek has photos of them).
It's truly an interesting daguerreotype, but I don't at all believe it's Chopin.


Actually, there were three death masks made but only the one depicted above is fit for family viewing. (He looks way too dead in the other two.) PM me if you like.


Aha!!! I wasn't aware that there were three! I knew of two (and have seen the PG version as well as one of the "too dead"), but not a third. PM on it's way.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

#1639756 - 03/12/11 06:27 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,983
lilylady Offline
4000 Post Club Member
lilylady  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,983
boston north
Now I lay me down to sleep -

I always get those confused, P!

And worse.



"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."
#1639772 - 03/12/11 07:06 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: lilylady]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
Originally Posted by lilylady
Now I lay me down to sleep -

I always get those confused, P!

And worse.


And then there are chickens - - -


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
#1639781 - 03/12/11 07:23 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 832
Lingyis Offline
500 Post Club Member
Lingyis  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 832
i was checking to make sure it isn't april 1st...

#1639813 - 03/12/11 08:40 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: stores]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,701
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Pogorelich.  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,701
not somewhere over the rainbow
Originally Posted by stores
Aha!!! I wasn't aware that there were three! I knew of two (and have seen the PG version as well as one of the "too dead"), but not a third. PM on it's way.


"Its"!

This looks like a painting to me, not a photograph..



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
#1639819 - 03/12/11 08:45 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member
-Frycek  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,921
SC Mountains
Could be a photograph of a painting


Slow down and do it right.
[Linked Image]
#1639831 - 03/12/11 09:03 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: Pogorelich.]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member
stores  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Originally Posted by stores
Aha!!! I wasn't aware that there were three! I knew of two (and have seen the PG version as well as one of the "too dead"), but not a third. PM on it's way.


"Its"!

This looks like a painting to me, not a photograph..


blush



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

#1639860 - 03/12/11 09:59 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,886
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Andromaque  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,886
New York
Oh Frycek,
you MUST post the pictures. or you are going to have to PM half the membership, myself included!

#1639866 - 03/12/11 10:11 PM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,039
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member
tomasino  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,039
Minneapolis, Minnesota
It's not Chopin by a nose.

The slightly raised nose bridge of the guy in the photograph can't even hold a candle to Chopin's Roman Nose, as shown in the desk mask. That clinches it for me. If we need go further, the death mask also shows Chopin as having somewhat heavier lips, particularly the lower lip, and not quite as much chin as the guy in the photograph. The Kwiatowski drawings--and I take it on Frycek's good authority that Kwiatowski was actually there--also show a pronounced Roman Nose.

Painting or photograph? It looks like a photograph to me, but I'm not at all convinced it's a Daguerreotype. I've examined a good many, and, in general, they're remarkably stable, and don't often show extreme fading or color shifting, such as the extreme shift to blue in several large areas of highlight in the image.

The photo has an unusual shape, and it is quite unusual for a Daguerreotype, or any photograph up until the last few decades, to be cropped in this manner. It might be very telling to see what was cropped out of the image, perhaps by the photographer or the publication's editor. It would also be interesting to know more about what was in the Polish language article accompanying the photograph.

Tomasino


"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10

#1639985 - 03/13/11 03:22 AM Re: Postmortem Daguerreotype of Chopin?? [Re: -Frycek]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,021
Batuhan Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Batuhan  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,021
Istanbul
Not look like Chopin his face compeletly different from the photo of 1849 but this is very fascinating


Sorry for my English, I know it sucks, but I'm trying to improve.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Problem with keys on brand new piano (Kawai CS11)
by PianomanDK. 05/28/17 02:47 PM
Problem with keys on brand new piano (Kawai CS11)
by PianomanDK. 05/28/17 02:08 PM
Recourses to learn Scales
by blau90. 05/28/17 01:58 PM
Flat hand position is sometimes better
by Isabelle1949. 05/28/17 01:45 PM
great benginners help
by racer1. 05/28/17 01:42 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Report Problems With New Forums
Report Problems with New Forums Here!
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics179,936
Posts2,630,532
Members87,910
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0