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Originally Posted by John v.d.Brook
Originally Posted by liszt85
Do you have students who come from non-military families and are not rich? What proportion of your total number of students would you estimate that to be?

100%. None of them are rich in any real sense of the word; a few are upper middle class. Most are in the struggling to make ends meet every month. And I assure you, the military families are far, far, far from rich. Quite a few families are splitting tuition between parents and grand-parents. It's really a matter of priorities for each family. Do they spend their available resources on their children's education or on entertainment or on goodies for themselves?


That's good then. I'm surprised though that they commit to annual tuition without the possibility of flexibility even in the event of emergency (no way out from the early termination fees). That is not what I would expect from people who seriously have difficult making ends meet each month as you claim. I myself belong to that group of people who have difficulty making ends meet each month and I pay $70 for a one hour lesson each month, that's all I can afford. I would never sign on a sheet of paper that says that I'd have to pay $100 to withdraw from lessons for any reason.

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That's the beauty of capitalism - choice. You can choose the teacher who best meets your needs, and others have the same freedom to do so. No "one size fits all" like we have in certain quarters.


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Originally Posted by John v.d.Brook
That's the beauty of capitalism - choice. You can choose the teacher who best meets your needs, and others have the same freedom to do so. No "one size fits all" like we have in certain quarters.


That doesn't answer my question about the inconsistency (between what you expect poor people to choose and what you claim your customers choose: your policy, which is NOT something that I expect a poor man to choose, there might be exceptions but most certainly not 100% like you claim). For people who barely make ends meet, the choice that you offer (logically) seems to be something that's not really an option for them. However, you claim that all of them make it work. You even go on to say that 100% of your clients are not rich, but you began talking about it in this thread saying that most of your families have a steady and reliable income that they don't mind committing to a year's lessons, even with the caveat that you put in your policy about cancellations. I don't quite fathom it. So either your estimate about your clients' wealth in your most recent posts is wrong, or there is some weird sociological phenomenon going on here that I don't quite understand. I know what else could explain this: your conception of "rich" and mine might differ. For you, rich might mean somebody who makes $500,000 a year. For me, rich means anybody who makes more than $100K a year.

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Originally Posted by liszt85
Originally Posted by John v.d.Brook
That's the beauty of capitalism - choice. You can choose the teacher who best meets your needs, and others have the same freedom to do so. No "one size fits all" like we have in certain quarters.


That doesn't answer my question about the inconsistency (between what you expect poor people to choose and what you claim your customers choose: your policy, which is NOT something that I expect a poor man to choose, there might be exceptions but most certainly not 100% like you claim). For people who barely make ends meet, the choice that you offer (logically) seems to be something that's not really an option for them. However, you claim that all of them make it work. You even go on to say that 100% of your clients are not rich, but you began talking about it in this thread saying that most of your families have a steady and reliable income that they don't mind committing to a year's lessons, even with the caveat that you put in your policy about cancellations. I don't quite fathom it. So either your estimate about your clients' wealth in your most recent posts is wrong, or there is some weird sociological phenomenon going on here that I don't quite understand. I know what else could explain this: your conception of "rich" and mine might differ. For you, rich might mean somebody who makes $500,000 a year. For me, rich means anybody who makes more than $100K a year.


Since you said you weren't necessarily addressing John with your concerns, I'll jump in. Obviously, John has students that make it work and enjoy taking lessons from him. Those that don't, dont' sign up and find someone who has a policy and price that suits their needs. I have students whose parents are on fixed incomes, single incomes, disability, etc. and my rates are not on the top in the community, but I would say the upper 3rd. Those that really want to study with me make it work, and I try to cooperate with them as much as my own budget can allow (like John does with military families). If he says he doesn't teach only rich people, then you'll have to take his word on it.

For me, those families that cannot afford the rates that I have set do have many options in the community of teachers who charge much less. I am pretty confident that the people who don't make a lot of money would able to afford lessons, but it may be more of a sacrifice for them than someone else. That doesn't mean I should have to live as a starving musician (been there, done that) so that I can ensure everyone who wants lessons will get them. There are also programs out there for underprivileged families and teachers who are a part of this program agre to teach at no more than 50% of their costs should the families meet all the financial criteria and agree to the teacher's policy.

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If a rich person makes $100k, what does a middle class person earn?


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Originally Posted by John v.d.Brook
If a rich person makes $100k, what does a middle class person earn?


$70K? You do realize that a lot of piano teachers only make that much, don't you? They are not rich, they are middle class people who chose to teach (and chose to go to college for music) not for the money. Nobody in their right senses would be a music major in the hopes of making loads of cash.

I make $21K and am way below poverty line. :P So yes, I guessed right..it is indeed in our differences of the conception of "rich" and "poor". The poorest that's acceptable to you (and your studio) is probably someone who makes 70K a year.

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Originally Posted by liszt85
That doesn't answer my question about the inconsistency (between what you expect poor people to choose and what you claim your customers choose: your policy, which is NOT something that I expect a poor man to choose, there might be exceptions but most certainly not 100% like you claim). For people who barely make ends meet, the choice that you offer (logically) seems to be something that's not really an option for them. However, you claim that all of them make it work. You even go on to say that 100% of your clients are not rich, but you began talking about it in this thread saying that most of your families have a steady and reliable income that they don't mind committing to a year's lessons, even with the caveat that you put in your policy about cancellations. I don't quite fathom it. So either your estimate about your clients' wealth in your most recent posts is wrong, or there is some weird sociological phenomenon going on here that I don't quite understand. I know what else could explain this: your conception of "rich" and mine might differ. For you, rich might mean somebody who makes $500,000 a year. For me, rich means anybody who makes more than $100K a year.

Perhaps the larger issue is our differing expectations of businesses. I offer a service which, if I do a good job at it, provides my customers a solid musical education and provides me a steady income. A fair trade in my estimation. It doesn't provide great wealth which I knew going in (oh, if only I could be a bus driver in Wisconsin such as Madison bus driver, John E. Nelson, was able to make $159,000 in 2009) but a sufficient income to meet our needs. It's not my job to figure out how my services could be affordable to 100% of the population. I couldn't possibly do that anyway. I simply offer a service with some prudent caveats.

Originally Posted by liszt85
$70K? You do realize that a lot of piano teachers only make that much, don't you? They are not rich, they are middle class people who chose to teach (and chose to go to college for music) not for the money. Nobody in their right senses would be a music major in the hopes of making loads of cash.

You got that right. I don't know a single piano teacher who makes anywhere that amount. A few may gross $50k, but after the tax wallop, it's a whole lot less.



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sonataplayer, my policy is that if a student takes unpaid leave from lessons there is a $50 re-enrollment fee upon returning. This is working well for me.

This has also acted as a deterrent to returning. One parent who was particularly difficult decided to "think it over" when she called to restart lessons. It was really a dodged bullet to not have them return.

This has also helped parents to understand what I expect from them. I go over the policy with parents at our initial meeting and no one has a problem with it.

Some teachers here on PW don't like to call it a re-enrollment fee. So feel free to call it something else.

Last edited by Ann in Kentucky; 03/11/11 02:47 PM.
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Originally Posted by John v.d.Brook

It's not my job to figure out how my services could be affordable to 100% of the population.


Absolutely. However then, you must probably not claim that 100% of your clientele are non-rich (felt that it was a better term than "poor") but yet manage to make sacrifices to be able to sign on your policy. You have pretty high standards for "rich". So somebody who makes $100K a year wouldn't mind spending $100 on an early termination fee (and I have a strange suspicion that your early termination fee might be even higher than this guesstimate of mine), whereas somebody who's genuinely poor, might have to sacrifice some grocery that month if they were to sign your policy. Trust me, there are people like that, who make real sacrifices to pay for their piano lessons. Policies like this only make good music education even less accessible to them than it already is. There do exist good teachers out there who realize this and avoid such stringent policies but like you said, its your choice and it works well for you, so be it. Also, your sentiment seems to be the majority view on the teacher's forum here. The other kind also do exist here and I personally appreciate the second kind a tad more than the former. Yea yea, its how capitalism works. All that's fine. However, we as human beings can also make little differences.

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Originally Posted by Morodiene

If he says he doesn't teach only rich people, then you'll have to take his word on it.


Not if our definitions of "rich" are poles apart. wink

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Originally Posted by liszt85
$70K? You do realize that a lot of piano teachers only make that much, don't you?


?????? That's a lot to assume. Most piano teachers make way, way less than $70K.


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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by liszt85
$70K? You do realize that a lot of piano teachers only make that much, don't you?


?????? That's a lot to assume. Most piano teachers make way, way less than $70K.


I was being extremely liberal with my estimate there because John seems to have quite a high bar for his definition of "rich". He would call $50K below poverty line and I didn't want to make piano teachers look that poor!

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Originally Posted by Morodiene
For me, those families that cannot afford the rates that I have set do have many options in the community of teachers who charge much less. I am pretty confident that the people who don't make a lot of money would able to afford lessons.


That's a very accurate description. There is a teacher in the next town over who charges 1/4 of what I charge, and she has students lining out the door.

As a working professional, you want to set your fees right at the threshold of what your ideal clients are willing to pay. I know I'm losing a lot of potential students to teachers who charge less, but I also have to make a living with the number of hours that I can work in a week!


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Our definitions are poles apart, but I suspect your's might be skewed because of where you sit on the income scale.

According to the US Government, the mean income, family of two, both parents over age 25, is $86,500. The median income is a bit lower at $64,200.

I found this material at http://www.buzzle.com/articles/average-american-income.html. It's probably accurate enough for our discussion:
Quote
9th Grade or Less
A person who has completed education till 9th grade and older than 25, irrespective of sex, race and occupation has a mean annual earning of $20,308. Which can be a pretty misleading figure as the mean figure will shoot up drastically if one of this sample set earns a lot more. So the median income is given to be around $17,422, which I feel is a more accurate number.

High School Graduate
A high school graduation opens up a lot more job openings in America. And hence understandably, the mean income again is higher. The mean income for a high school graduate is $31,664 while the median earning is $26,505.

Bachelor's Degree
A person with a bachelor's degree on his job application no doubt commands a better salary. The average American income for a person holding a bachelor's degree is more than the national average and stands at $56,740. The median earnings are $43,143. Which basically means that if you're an American holding a bachelor's degree or a higher qualification, you are most certainly earning a lot more than the average American income.

Master's Degree
A person holding a master's degree surely must be holding one of the highest paying jobs in the United States. With a mean earning of $68,302 and a median of $52,390, it is for sure a very impressive amount!

Professional Degree
The cherry on the cake really. Read the figures and gawk. A person with a professional degree on an average makes... wait for it... $119,343 per year. A massive figure indeed. Even the median number for it looks really good. $82,473 per year still means you're right up there! Biggest fish in the job search market!

Basically, for a family of two parents, with at least a BA or BS degree, they are likely to earn close to your figure of being "rich."

I recall that during the presidential race, they were bandying about the figure of $250K as being rich. Truthfully, that seems a bit on the low side to me.

We used to call people in this category "well to do" but certainly not rich. Times have changed!


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liszt85--

This issue really has nothing to do with family income. I have taught and still teach children of wealthy families that make over $250K. I also have taught children of families that make less than I do. Regardless of their family income, all students follow the same studio policy IF they want to study with me. That is their choice.

Many families value piano in their children's education. Spending $2,500 a year on piano lessons is a price that many families ("rich" or "poor") are willing to pay.


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Originally Posted by liszt85
I was being extremely liberal with my estimate there because John seems to have quite a high bar for his definition of "rich". He would call $50K below poverty line and I didn't want to make piano teachers look that poor!

How on earth do you know what I would call poor? I make less than $50K. I don't consider myself poor, nor do I consider my wife and myself rich by any standard.


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Originally Posted by ll
Originally Posted by liszt85
Originally Posted by ll
Originally Posted by Stanny
John summed up exactly what I wanted to say.

My studio differs in that I do not have a termination fee. You pay for lessons a semester at a time. There are no refunds. I would suggest a tightening of your studio policy.


What do you do if there is a medical emergency in their family, if they move, etc etc etc - particularly outstanding reasons for their withdrawal at any given time?


The termination fee still holds. The families know very well what they're getting into when signing the contract. I'm pretty sure this will be John's response. Correct me if I'm wrong. We've had similar discussions many times before, about the need for a steady income, and why such policies are justified in that respect, etc. Not that I agree with the entire philosophy but what do I know? I have not experienced the difficulties that piano teachers have faced with such situations. I do know though that I would try to find some other solution (to keep my income coming in) rather than to twist people's arms in the event of an emergency.


I'm talking to Stanny. I'm interested in how one handles such a situation where the entire semester is paid but someone needs to leave half-way through/whenever.


In the 10 years I've been teaching, I've never had anyone need to leave half way through a semester. I'm sure if there was a medical emergency, or a death of a parent or something along those lines, I'd be flexible. I just don't spell it out in the policy because it's at my discretion.


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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
liszt85--

This issue really has nothing to do with family income. I have taught and still teach children of wealthy families that make over $250K. I also have taught children of families that make less than I do. Regardless of their family income, all students follow the same studio policy IF they want to study with me. That is their choice.

Many families value piano in their children's education. Spending $2,500 a year on piano lessons is a price that many families ("rich" or "poor") are willing to pay.


We were not discussing lesson prices. We were discussing certain policies which have early termination fees and other kinds of fees included.

I'm having difficulty getting folks to make consistent statements here. So the discussion is becoming useless now.

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Originally Posted by John v.d.Brook
If a rich person makes $100k, what does a middle class person earn?


This is why I thought you would consider somebody who makes $50K poor. In my mind, anybody who makes $100K a year is rich. You seemed to disagree. So why is it surprising to you that I think you wouldn't think $50K to be any significant amount of money for anybody to be earning annually?

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And since the thread has migrated over to income, I just want to pop in and say my families on the lower income side are the best about paying on time and making sure their children work hard at home.


~Stanny~

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