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Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: JustAnotherPianist] #1636866
03/08/11 07:05 PM
03/08/11 07:05 PM
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Karl Pilkington Offline OP
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Originally Posted by JustAnotherPianist


Ask yourself in all honesty. Is this method REALLY going to produce scales like the scales Andrew Tyson plays in that Polonaise?



Taubman masters can play scales just as good as these if not better, using rotation and other techniques. I've seen it.

At least you are criticizing the Taubman videos instead of ME!

I feel vindicated at last...

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Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: Karl Pilkington] #1636868
03/08/11 07:08 PM
03/08/11 07:08 PM
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Here, as opposed to there
stores Offline
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Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by Karl Pilkington
[

Taubman masters can play scales just as good as these if not better, using rotation and other techniques. I've seen it.




Please do provide something a bit more concrete than "I've seen it", to back up what you're saying here, because I don't recall any Taubman masters at the last Chopin Comp.

Last edited by stores; 03/08/11 07:09 PM.


"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: Karl Pilkington] #1636878
03/08/11 07:16 PM
03/08/11 07:16 PM
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JustAnotherPianist Offline
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Originally Posted by Karl Pilkington
Originally Posted by JustAnotherPianist


Ask yourself in all honesty. Is this method REALLY going to produce scales like the scales Andrew Tyson plays in that Polonaise?



Taubman masters can play scales just as good as these if not better, using rotation and other techniques. I've seen it.

At least you are criticizing the Taubman videos instead of ME!

I feel vindicated at last...


Hmm. That's funny. All of the demonstrations I've seen of 'Taubman masters' have been pretty unimpressive I must say.

Who are these amazing Taubman masters of which you speak?

You see, to me, the fact that you can't hear the difference between this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqvP9Sw5uAU&feature=related
and this lady:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tc9wHLExx4

tells me that there is probably no hope for you.

I look forward to observing your attempts with the Taubman technique over the coming years.

Best of luck!

Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: JustAnotherPianist] #1636883
03/08/11 07:25 PM
03/08/11 07:25 PM
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beet31425 Offline
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Originally Posted by JustAnotherPianist
You see, to me, the fact that you can't hear the difference between this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqvP9Sw5uAU&feature=related
and this lady:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tc9wHLExx4

That's not exactly a fair comparison. In her video Golandsky is demonstrating a pedagogical point, not performing in a competition or a recital. Anyway, she's an educator, not a concert pianist.

A real analysis of Taubman's impact won't just be side-by-side comparisons of pianists who do and don't use the technique. It would also be a statistical study of which group, over the course of their life, has sustained more injury. My understanding is that Taubman is more about protecting the pianist's physical health in her mid and late career, and less about getting her to that Chopin Competition final stage in the first place. Of course, no one's done such a study yet; the technique hasn't even been around long enough.

-Jason


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: Karl Pilkington] #1636889
03/08/11 07:31 PM
03/08/11 07:31 PM
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JustAnotherPianist Offline
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That pretty much sums it up. If you are old and/or injured, maybe Taubman will give you a new lease on life.

If you want to be able to play like a Chopin Competition winner, you're gonna have to go elsewhere.

And it won't come in a box for five hundred dollars.


Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: JustAnotherPianist] #1636892
03/08/11 07:33 PM
03/08/11 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JustAnotherPianist
That pretty much sums it up. If you are old and/or injured, maybe Taubman will give you a new lease on life.

If you want to be able to play like a Chopin Competition winner, you're gonna have to go elsewhere.

And it won't come in a box for five hundred dollars.



^^ rofl... THIS

Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: Karl Pilkington] #1636894
03/08/11 07:35 PM
03/08/11 07:35 PM
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Los Angeles, CA
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Karl, you have nothing to prove or win. Whatever you do will likely be met with unflattering criticism. There are some people here who will trash concert level pianists. There will always be people better and worse than yourself, which is true for everyone of us.

If your thread was intended to increase Taubman awareness, I think you've succeeded in that regard. If people are injured during their piano journey and are lost as to what to do next, they may remember this thread and consider Taubman as an option.

I admire your enthusiasm and passion, but maybe its just better to let it go.

Just a friendly suggestion.


Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: JustAnotherPianist] #1636901
03/08/11 07:39 PM
03/08/11 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by JustAnotherPianist
That pretty much sums it up. If you are old and/or injured, maybe Taubman will give you a new lease on life.

Well, that's not a summary of what I said.

Anyway, as reasonable folks in this thread and others have said, Taubman has some excellent ideas that make sense, and may be very helpful in preventing injury, but it's not a miracle path to virtuosity. Blowhards on both sides are welcome to their extreme statements.

-Jason


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: beet31425] #1636910
03/08/11 07:50 PM
03/08/11 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by beet31425
Originally Posted by JustAnotherPianist
That pretty much sums it up. If you are old and/or injured, maybe Taubman will give you a new lease on life.

Well, that's not a summary of what I said.

. Blowhards on both sides are welcome to their extreme statements.

-Jason


Forgive me for reading between the lines.
Call me a blowhard if you want to-I don't think that accurately describes me.

I just call 'em like I see 'em.

People are welcome to judge me based on the quality of my posts and the quality of my work as a pianist.

I DO think Taubman has a few excellent ideas-I always liked, and still like, their way of explaining posture and the shape of the hand/arm at the piano-my Taubman teacher always called it the 'natural curve'.

However, my opinion on this subject is the result of many years of experience as a pianist. You may object to my style, but my words do not come lightly on this.

Rotation simply isn't the miracle that Taubman/Golandsky claim it is. And it certainly doesn't belong in fast scale playing, as their own weak video on the very subject demonstrates!

I don't know if you are actually looking to discuss this or not?

Last edited by JustAnotherPianist; 03/09/11 03:25 AM.
Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: Akira] #1636948
03/08/11 08:58 PM
03/08/11 08:58 PM
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Karl Pilkington Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Akira
Karl, you have nothing to prove or win. Whatever you do will likely be met with unflattering criticism. There are some people here who will trash concert level pianists. There will always be people better and worse than yourself, which is true for everyone of us.

If your thread was intended to increase Taubman awareness, I think you've succeeded in that regard. If people are injured during their piano journey and are lost as to what to do next, they may remember this thread and consider Taubman as an option.

I admire your enthusiasm and passion, but maybe its just better to let it go.

Just a friendly suggestion.



Thank you. Yes, these are wise words..

I want to let it go...

I just keep getting sucked back into this thread for some reason..

Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: Karl Pilkington] #1636957
03/08/11 09:11 PM
03/08/11 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Karl Pilkington

I just keep getting sucked back into this thread for some reason..

It's addictive, eh?


"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: Karl Pilkington] #1636963
03/08/11 09:22 PM
03/08/11 09:22 PM
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Iowa City, IA
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I think about locking it every day. If it doesn't die off tomorrow or Thursday I'll probably put it to bed.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: jazzyprof] #1636964
03/08/11 09:24 PM
03/08/11 09:24 PM
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Karl Pilkington Offline OP
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Originally Posted by jazzyprof
Originally Posted by Karl Pilkington

I just keep getting sucked back into this thread for some reason..

It's addictive, eh?


The internet is always an addictive way to procrastinate, and I find the piano and the people that play it to be endlessly fascinating.

So this forum is like a crack addiction for me.

But at this point, I have decided to take parts of this discussion to Private Message.

Cheers Mates..





Last edited by Karl Pilkington; 03/08/11 09:42 PM.
Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: Karl Pilkington] #1636977
03/08/11 09:57 PM
03/08/11 09:57 PM
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Karl, if there is one thing that's helped me improve my playing more than anything over the last few years it's been an openness to learn as many different approaches to technique as I possibly can, from as many different sources as I possible can AND at the same time a refusal to be wed to anything that doesn't pan out after diligently giving it a fair chance over a reasonable amount of time. By choosing to study with a Taubman teacher and enthusiastically embracing everything they are teaching, you are doing the first part, and I applaud you for it. I myself found limits in the Taubman method after enthusiastically embracing it and giving it what I judged to be a reasonable amount of time, and so I moved on. That's not to say I did not benefit from my exposure to it. My advice to you is to keep on embracing what they are teaching. In fact, be crazy diligent about doing everything they tell you to do. But at the same time, know that they are NOT the last word on piano technique and they DO NOT hold exclusivity on knowledge of how to play at a high level without injury and be as open to moving on to another approach as you were to embracing Taubman if you should reach a point where it is not fulfilling your goals.

The last thing I would add is to be careful of accepting comments like "it takes two or three years to master this" when talking about mastering a new way of moving. It may or may not be true, but trust your own judgement and common sense about this and don't be afraid to reject such a comment if it seems unreasonable to you. What works for me is to make a list of difficult passages. As I work on my technique I play through those difficult passages from time to time to see if I detect progress. I am constantly asking myself these questions: Are these passages becoming any easier to play? Did they at first become easier to play but then did improvement stall? Can I detect exactly what it is about the passage that is continuing to be a problem and is my current work on technique addressing it? How likely is the technique work I'm doing to help me conquer X Y & Z problems? I also regularly try out other pieces i am familiar with - pieces I studied in the past, to see how it feels to play them. In the end, all that matters is that what was difficult for me before gradually becomes easier. If that's not happening then it's time to re-evaluate. Do not be afraid to part ways with a teacher no matter how much you like them or how much they insist you're making a mistake if you have judged otherwise.

Good luck, Karl!

Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: Karl Pilkington] #1636985
03/08/11 10:10 PM
03/08/11 10:10 PM
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JerryS88, that's a profound explanation. I think I'm just like you. I'm very open minded about hearing and trying everything out.

Even the style I stick to the most, I will likely tweak it with ideas from other people.

Technique is never a simple issue and I've long left the idea of one size fits all. My approach has managed to improve my technique with less years than I imagined necessary.

I do apply parts of Taubman too BTW since I was able to watch a large portion of the video. But I don't think I'd use it on Chopin 10/1 (at all).


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Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: Kreisler] #1636997
03/08/11 10:22 PM
03/08/11 10:22 PM
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Karl Pilkington Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Kreisler
I think about locking it every day. If it doesn't die off tomorrow or Thursday I'll probably put it to bed.


You should never lock this thread.

Debate about piano technique will go on forever, even after I stop posting...


Re: The Taubman Technique is THE WAY - everything else is wr [Re: Karl Pilkington] #1637013
03/08/11 10:46 PM
03/08/11 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Karl Pilkington
Originally Posted by BruceD
I would like to know a couple of things :
- How long has it taken to get this piece to this stage?
- What performance level does KP think he has achieved at this point with this piece?
- Where does KP think that this piece needs to go, now?
- How would he accomplish the next stage(s) of work on this?

I will refrain from any comment about the technical level or the "interpretation" of this performance until I know answers to the above questions. Such comments would be in relation to answers to the above questions. In light of the history of this thread and the final appearance of the video, I think these are reasonable questions on my part.

That said, may I offer a tentative thank you for posting this.

Regards,


I learnt the notes to this piece several years ago, and worked on it with a teacher for a few lessons...

I picked up the Fantasie Impromptu again yesterday, practiced it for 2 hours, and made this video.

I don't think I have achieved performance level.

I think I would need to memorize the notes, work on my phrasing, dynamics, and other things, and also the rhythmic difficulties of 4 against 3.

To get something up to performance level is a pretty big process for me, and right now I'm working on other things with my Taubman teacher.



Very Impressive!


Practice makes perfect, IF you practice the right way.
Re: The Taubman Technique is THE WAY - everything else is wr [Re: JonasCorwell] #1637016
03/08/11 10:56 PM
03/08/11 10:56 PM
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Karl Pilkington Offline OP
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Originally Posted by JonasCorwell
Originally Posted by Karl Pilkington
Originally Posted by BruceD
I would like to know a couple of things :
- How long has it taken to get this piece to this stage?
- What performance level does KP think he has achieved at this point with this piece?
- Where does KP think that this piece needs to go, now?
- How would he accomplish the next stage(s) of work on this?

I will refrain from any comment about the technical level or the "interpretation" of this performance until I know answers to the above questions. Such comments would be in relation to answers to the above questions. In light of the history of this thread and the final appearance of the video, I think these are reasonable questions on my part.

That said, may I offer a tentative thank you for posting this.

Regards,


I learnt the notes to this piece several years ago, and worked on it with a teacher for a few lessons...

I picked up the Fantasie Impromptu again yesterday, practiced it for 2 hours, and made this video.

I don't think I have achieved performance level.

I think I would need to memorize the notes, work on my phrasing, dynamics, and other things, and also the rhythmic difficulties of 4 against 3.

To get something up to performance level is a pretty big process for me, and right now I'm working on other things with my Taubman teacher.



Very Impressive!


Thanks bro...

Re: The Taubman Technique is THE WAY - everything else is wr [Re: Karl Pilkington] #1637035
03/08/11 11:20 PM
03/08/11 11:20 PM
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Actually, Taubman and Golandsky adamantly claim that the motions that lead to virtuosity are the exact same motions that prevent and cure injury. So apparently the Taubman technique is supposed to take you to the Chopin Competition, in addition to preserving your physical health. Taking that into consideration, I think that it is fair to point the lack of virtuosity in Golandsky's playing. If the Taubman method truly is leagues ahead of all other technical schools, then why isn't Golandsky's technique at the level of the top virtuosi? After all, she is considered the preeminent teacher of the Taubman method.



Recent Repertoire:
Liszt: Concerto #1 in Eb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dY9Qw8Z7ao
Bach: Partita #2 in c minor
Beethoven: Sonata #23 in f minor, Opus 57 ("Appassionata")
Chopin: Etudes Opus 25 #6,9,10,11,12
Prokofiev: Sonata #3 in a minor
Suggestion diabolique
Re: The Taubman Technique is THE WAY - everything else is wr [Re: LaReginadellaNotte] #1637059
03/08/11 11:55 PM
03/08/11 11:55 PM
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I studied with a "Taubmanite" until recently for about a year. I think I have improved but I don't believe it is due to the method, more so just as a result of the practicing, being serious about it, and the passage of time. Actually, some things I wanted to improve, I have not. Most notably faster scales and arpeggios up and down octaves. This is partly due to getting into working up a few pieces, and not working so much on pure technique. But when I do practice scales and arpeggios, it is impossible to do any rotations at speed. When I am doing scales for any period of time, my forearms get cramped and tired, so clearly I need to employ another device which I haven't figured out.

My teacher also spent a lot of time on "walking hand and arm;" which is raising the entire "apparatus," the hand, the wrist being straight, and the forearm, up, over, and then down. And this can work well at slow speeds, it can give a feeling of getting into the keys, but it cannot be done at a higher velocity

Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: Kreisler] #1637078
03/09/11 12:30 AM
03/09/11 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Kreisler
I think about locking it every day. If it doesn't die off tomorrow or Thursday I'll probably put it to bed.


thumb yippie


Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)
Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: Karl Pilkington] #1637125
03/09/11 02:26 AM
03/09/11 02:26 AM
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people are being quite unfair to the Taubman technique. if there is only 1% of people brought up on it, what are the proportion of great pianists grew up with it? not only that, but it's a recent thing so maybe in another 15-20 years it would be a fairer discussion.

and i'm sure it's not even 1%. more like... 0.2% i suppose.

anyway, i feel that KP is getting less inflammatory and others and just being unfair now.

Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: Karl Pilkington] #1637126
03/09/11 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Karl Pilkington
I guess I'm in a no-win situation here...

I can't meet the high expectations of the really advanced virtuoso pianists in this forum..

But if I don't put out another video, people will unfairly slam me and the Taubman school for the rest of eternity..

What do I do?


well, you already won. you've brought the taubman technique to our attention, and that's the main thing. dozens if not hundreds more people now know about it and while it's not the holy grail (nothing is), if there's something worthwhile, it will be incorporated in other pianists' technique if they are open-minded. and they will pass on to their students and so on.

for instance...

i tried a little bit of "rotation" for the rachmaninoff etude (see signature) i'm learning. virtuosos probably figured it out themselves, but obviously not being one myself, i thought it could be an improvement over what i'm currently doing in the 3-2 or 2-3 fingerings on repeated notes. speed-wise it's about the same, but it does feel less stressful than either finger strength alone or using the wrist to assist.

Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: Karl Pilkington] #1637150
03/09/11 04:44 AM
03/09/11 04:44 AM
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Hello,
I've been reading this thread since the beginning with much interest. I don't see why it should be locked. I've found interesting ideas and posts.
Anyways, I just wanted to say two things.
First, I really think that rotation thing is an illusion. That double rotation thing is even worse. I cannot believe some people actually believe that each finger can rotate twice while playing a fast scale, even if it is "invisible" (how convenient). Evenness, equality are obtained by the fingers, not by the wrist or the arm or something else. I see rotation as an aid or as a consequence, not as a mean. That Taubmann method really looks like a scam to me. A lot (I mean, a lot!) of blah blah, but no action. That is so typicall of scammers. Anyways, that is just my opinion, of course.

Second, I would like to react to the criticisms that were done against JustAnotherPianist in this thread, which seem pretty unfair to me. His posts are some of the most meaningful and helpful (although maybe a bit too direct but I like this style personnally). I benefited from them myself. Look for example at his review of my Beethoven's Pathetique:

Originally Posted by JustAnotherPianist
Very well done. Again, your performance is evidence of both your technical ability and musicality.

Again, this performance comes off as being musical and sincere, although a bit 'studenty'.

Think MUCH more about the characters and moods which you are trying to establish. It seems slightly emotionally stilted. I know it doesn't feel this way when you are playing it. You are at the stage in your development where exaggerating the characters (without distorting articulations or rhythms too much) will be highly beneficial.

A few suggestions-not going to go over with a fine tooth comb as that would defeat the purpose.
m. 4-this Ab is a much bigger moment in the sonata than it seems you realize.

m.11 well played, but really needs a sense of direction to the top.

m. 80-90 (and all analogous passages in Beethoven) play the ornaments ON the beat. Always. It isn't an option to play them the way you do.

m.114-120
This was by far your clumsiest moment in an otherwise solid performance.

126-130-hold the chords in the RH to their full value. Keep the intensity right up to the fermata-this should be a crescendo, not a diminuendo.

The development could use a much greater sense of mystery.

Well done on the ending.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe1bcETRrrw

Watch that.
You are already playing to a very high level.
I think you are capable of much, much more.

Bravo!


Nobody on this forum has given my such good advice on this piece. It has encouraged me, I worked a lot to improve it and I think I have succeeded:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1573343/Beethoven%27s%20Sonata

ps: I'm not a friend or even an acquaintance of JustAnotherPianist. I just don't like unfair criticism/attacks.

Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: natty_dread78] #1637188
03/09/11 07:21 AM
03/09/11 07:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
Kansas
apple* Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
apple*  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
Kansas
Originally Posted by natty_dread78

Second, I would like to react to the criticisms that were done against JustAnotherPianist in this thread, which seem pretty unfair to me. His posts are some of the most meaningful and helpful (although maybe a bit too direct but I like this style personnally). I benefited from them myself. Look for example at his review of my Beethoven's Pathetique:

.


I was kind of teasing JAP.. I love reading his posts and hearing him play.. he's a little harsh and i was just attempting to share that he could be just a bit gentler. ... (particularly on the fairer sex of young age, a couple who we have).. I realize his modus operandi might be dramatic.

I'm sorry if I left a wrong impression. I agree that intelligent review is far more valuable than gushing mindless praise.


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: The Virtues of Taubman Technique [Re: apple*] #1637210
03/09/11 08:33 AM
03/09/11 08:33 AM
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Posts: 116
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natty_dread78  Offline
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Posts: 116
I was not referring specifically to you apple*. Indeed I sensed some irony and humor in your post.
It's just that I had a feeling of irritation and nervousness in the reactions to JAP's posts. I did not like that because the posts were actually very helpful, in particular for the OP, Karl.

But maybe my own reaction was a bit too harsh...

Re: The Taubman Technique is THE WAY - everything else is wrong! [Re: Karl Pilkington] #1637223
03/09/11 09:05 AM
03/09/11 09:05 AM
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Posts: 641
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Drunk3nFist Offline
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IMHO, people who mention that 'one particular way is the only way' are to be taken with a pinch of salt.


Ravel - Une Barque Sur l'Ocean
Kapustin - Etude No. 7
Bach/Busoni - Chaconne
Re: The Taubman Technique is THE WAY - everything else is wrong! [Re: Karl Pilkington] #1637241
03/09/11 09:26 AM
03/09/11 09:26 AM
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natty_dread78 Offline
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natty_dread78  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 116
Right. Almost everything in this method is doubtful and makes my little finger shout "scam!". Even if the method has some benefits (e.g. relaxation), I'm afraid it has too many drawbacks to be taken seriously. Even if I were given free lessons for a year, I would refuse. Because it may give me bad habits that may be very hard to remove subsequently.

Re: The Taubman Technique is THE WAY - everything else is wrong! [Re: Karl Pilkington] #1637322
03/09/11 11:02 AM
03/09/11 11:02 AM
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@natty_dread78: Spot on! Btw, I listened to your Pathetique again.. can't resist complimenting you on it again. wink I'm sure its even better now!


Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)
Re: The Taubman Technique is THE WAY - everything else is wrong! [Re: Karl Pilkington] #1637326
03/09/11 11:09 AM
03/09/11 11:09 AM
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JustAnotherPianist Offline
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 798
United Kingdom
hahah thanks for the respect natty dread,

them ppl with dreads got to speak up fo each other

but it's ok I'm a big boy and like I said, people are welcome to judge the quality of my posts and my level of my work as a pianist for themselves.

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