Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner The Virtues of Taubman Technique

You have been taught that you don't have a choice. You were told this, and you've never considered other methods.

You do have a choice... rotation with the thumb!

"Thumb under" is NEVER needed to play legato...

By LIFTING the thumb rotationally while keeping the other finger weight down, we can perfectly drop weight into the thumb and maintain the legato.

Watch this scale! There is no thumb under at all here, and there is no pedal.

Is this legato?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xkc4Uz387kc

THUMB OVER sounds more along the lines of what this video advocates...

Of course, the thumb tip has to lift, it is done with rotation and with the support of the entire forearm.

Are you doing it that way? We may mean different things by "thumb over".

I've retracted my original statement that EVERYTHING ELSE IS WRONG.

What I really meant was that CERTAIN THINGS ARE WRONG.

You are correct, your technique may be close to perfect without Taubman... you may already be doing everything right.

The reason I presented this topic so strongly is that I am strongly against CERTAIN THINGS that are taught by a lot of teachers (which lead to injury in many pianists).

I screwed up the topic, and should have focused it better originally.

As for "thumb under" on Bach to achieve voicing or voice leading or whatever you're trying to do, I'm sure Taubman probably has an alternate solution that would amaze you!

You can see perfectly clearly that she uses "thumb under"

I took a snapshot from the very video you linked. It occurs at about 47 seconds:

I wouldn't consider that video the best example of thumb over because that wasn't the point of the video, which was exploring forearm rotation.

Also, TU isn't completely forbidden. It is permissible in slow passages; however, fast passages absolutely require TO.

IMO, I think a hybrid of the two is required to get true physical legato while minimizing possible injuries and allowing faster speeds. The faster you go, the more it resembles TO. The slower and more legato, TU. The best way I can describe it, is that it is a grasping-like motion that is set as the third finger presses the key (at least when doing the C Major scale).

Okay, your snapshot is not the "thumb under" technique, you have a basic misunderstanding of what is going on here.

Let me explain:

As you ascend the C scale, YOUR technique says, and I quote, "my thumb is ready to play f nearly before my index finger gets past the d"..

That is the dreaded "thumb under", which prepares the thumb way in advance of its playing with a pulling motion of the thumb under the hand. This is bad for the reasons she mentions in the video, not to even mention the negatives of trying to anticipate future notes and what that does to the sound and the tension it creates in the hand.

In the video clip you paused at 48 seconds, you are seeing a DESCENDING C scale, and she is doing a single rotation with the thumb.

Descending is not the same as ascending, the thumb literally CANT pull under when you descend and play 2nd to 1st finger (index to thumb. or G to F in a C scale).

She LIFTS the thumb to play it. The thumb plays, and the entire mechanism swings to the left, so that the 3rd finger can drop.

Its called a single rotation. At that exact moment you froze, the thumb has already played and is under the other fingers.

That doesn't mean she pulled the thumb under the entire hand with the thumb muscles in order to prepare and play that note. She lifts the thumb to play it. The lift is UPWARDS and ROTATIONAL.

HARD TO EXPLAIN over a computer, you need a Taubman Teacher to show this!!!

What absolute bilge.

I don't know if this has already been posted yet on this thread, but if it hasn't then I present Horowitz playing Octaves and scales. Note his clear use of the "thumb under technique" in the right hand.

Okay, now we see who the REAL TROLLS ARE!!!

I paused on the descending side because it offers the best view. I promise you her thumb goes under her third finger when she ascends, rotation doesn't matter. If she weren't doing thumb under, she would have double rotation on the third finger or her elbow would be pointing towards another galaxy.

His octaves are with a supported wrist that does not break, which is what Taubman teaches also.

Its very hard to tell what is going on in this video with the scales...his wrist is all over the place.. he might be doing thumb under on the ascent.

Horowitz had exceptional ability...

If we know more about the most ergonomic techniques now then we did then, shouldn't we innovate, instead of just pointing to the past as proof that everything was perfect?


What we want to teach in this modern era is the easiest way of doing something, right?

On the ascent, the 3rd finger does a double rotation in order to play, but the motion that plays the thumb is a single rotation.

So its a double from 2 to 3, and a single from 3 to 1.

The thumb NEVER pulls under.

You are just perceiving the hand swinging and the thumb is under the fingers geographically, because thats how the hand is built.

We are talking about "What is the motion that plays the thumb".

Not "how does the thumb look on a video".

If this was demonstrated to you by a teacher, you'd get it.

Please don't argue that Taubman advocates thumb pulling motions, because that is nonsense, no matter what your eye seems to see...

He is clearly doing thumb under on the descent in the right hand. There is no ambiguity. 0:22-0:30

I am not arguing that Taubman advocates anything. Just merely saying that Horowitz uses the thumb under technique for scales.

I didn't say she advocates it, I'm saying she doesn't avoid it. The answer to your question of whether or not she plays it legato is therefore inconclusive to your assertion.

If you want to play a true legato with slow speed the thumb has to be under the other fingers, otherwise I don't see how that is physically possible. Even if you rotate your thumb to the key, at the key press the thumb is under some fingers. You can clearly see that in the Taubman video as someone else already pointed out.

There's a misunderstanding of what is meant by "thumb-over" technique. Obviously, the thumb goes under the fingers when executing legato scale passages. The term "thumb-over" is used to describe a technique in which the thumb is felt to drop into position as the arm rotates. "Thumb-over" is perhaps too extreme a term to describe what's really happening.

For example, in beginning an E Major scale with the right hand, there is a slight rotation of the forearm clockwise (supination.) The thumb is then felt to drop into the A from just above the key as the arm pronates (rotates back in a counter-clockwise motion.)

This is in contrast to the "thumb-under" in which the hand remains parallel to the keyboard and the thumb is pulled underneath into position. The contraction of the hand in this case creates unwanted tension, particularly in fast passages.

What's worse, some students will actually begin with the hand parallel to the keys and pronate (rotate the right arm counter-clockwise) while pulling the thumb under. This creates even more problems.

If you watch the slow motion video of Horowitz carefully, you'll see this slight rotation in his hand as I described it above. Yes, the thumb passes under the fingers, but the movement of the thumb is accompanied by a helpful (albeit slight) rotation of the forearm - look a the plane of the back of his hand relative to the horizontal plane of the keyboard.

Obviously, Horowitz didn't have Taubman training, which brings me to another point I'd like to make regarding Taubman. One of the biggest problems with Taubman Technique is that many of its proponents have a tendency to come across as gnostic zealots. I'm not just talking about Karl's original post and topic title - you sense this attitude in many of the Taubman videos and workshops. As I've said before, there's nothing wrong with Taubman's principles. They're well thought-out and very helpful. But Taubman, Golandsky, and others don't have a monopoly on good technique. Many of the general principles of rotation and hand/arm alignment go all the way back to the mid 19th century when virtuoso pianism was on the rise. Rotation and alignment are at the heart of Chopin's views on a supple wrist and Liszt's execution of a two note slur. These ideas were further explored by Ortmann, Leschetizky, and Matthay in a variety of ways and have become standard pedagogy. Taubman's contribution was in the application of these technical principles as a means of avoiding injury and in the descriptions and exercises used to communicate these principles to students.

People often forget that real life is a bit more complicated than internet forum world. On the internet, we tend to view things as either/or propositions. Taubman OR Not Taubman. Masterclass: Helpful OR Absurd. As if only two options were available! Practical pianism exists in shades of grey, and while writing in extreme terms is sometimes a useful academic exercise, it fails to capture the complicated nature of what we do. The tendency here on the forums to speak in extreme terms also fails to respect the nature of piano technique, which, like religion, is far too rich and interesting to contain universally accessible and objective truths.

Kreisler had a good post. I basically agree with it.

As for Damon and Rozina, you're not even trying to understand what she just said, which is exactly what I said in the previous post:

"This is in contrast to the "thumb-under" in which the hand remains parallel to the keyboard and the thumb is pulled underneath into position. The contraction of the hand in this case creates unwanted tension, particularly in fast passages."

and I wrote:

"That is the dreaded "thumb under", which prepares the thumb way in advance of its playing with a pulling motion of the thumb under the hand."

Damon and Rozina, for some reason you guys don't want to see the difference between lifting rotationally upwards and pulling sideways, which are 2 completely different motions.

We are talking about motion, not what your naked eye perceives. MOTION.

Have one lesson with a Taubman teacher and ask them... maybe they won't even charge you for it!!

Taking a break from this thread to go out and buy some ORANGE SODA POP!!!!!!!!!!

YEAH FOR ORANGE SODA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I understand perfectly what she said. Maybe you should use different terms. Rotation does not eliminate the pulling of the thumb. I've never hurt myself playing a scale, anyway.

I found this to be one of the best descriptions of "pure" TO as applied to scales:
From Piano Street by bernhard (http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7226.msg72166.html#msg72166)

Smooth, pearly, flowing, fast scales (with slow scales you can get away with murder) depend on the co-ordination of four basic movements:

1. Lateral shift of the hand/forearm
2. Rotation of the hand.
3. Slanting the hand in relation to the keyboard.
4. Backwards and forwards movement of the arm

Brian is right. This is going to take a while, so brace yourself. Also there is no guarantee that you will understand or be able to follow any of this from a written account. This needs demonstration and hands on instruction. It is really easy to do the wrong thing and be convinced that you are doing the right thing.

Before I proceed keep in mind that

a. Just because your teacher can do it, does not mean that s/he actually understand what s/he is doing. So pay no attention to what s/he says to you. Instead watch like a hawk what s/he does. Egghead is right: ask him/her to do it in slow motion (and observe if her verbal description of what s/he is doing is what s/he is actually doing – if she tells you to bring your thumb under the hand, but she herself does not do it, then she does not really know how s/he does it – s/he is just repeating some traditional teaching).

b. Have you noticed that in the four basic movements above I have not mentioned fingers, or even the thumb?

c. Thumb over and thumb under are misnomers. They do not adequately describe what is going on – it is just an abbreviation that people in the know use to avoid lengthy descriptions. Don’t take them literally.

So, are you sitting comfortably?

1. Lateral shift of the hand/forearm

Start by placing fingers 1-2-3 on C-D-E. Now play these three notes together as a chord. Next, shift your hand laterally to the right so that your fingers 1-2-3-4 are on top of F-G-A-B. Play these four notes as chord. The fingers do not move at all. The arm does all the work by positioning the appropriate fingers in the corresponding keys. Do that all over the keyboard to get a feel for it. Soon you should be able to displace your hand sideways with great precision and accuracy. This will also teach you the scale key pattern, that is, which keys (notes) belong to the scale and which do not. This visual pattern is very important, so use the practice of this movement for that secondary purpose as well.

Now, break the chords (C-D-E) and (F-G-A-B) by “rolling” your hand to the right. Again , you are not really pressing the fingers, but rotating the forearm and using this movement coupled with the arm weight to depress the keys. Incidentally, you have just slowed down from infinite speed (what could faster than together) to ridiculously fast. However, although playing C-D-E and F-G-A-B fast is easy, moving from E to F and from B to A is another matter altogether. So, the speed of your scale playing will always be limited by how fast you can accurately shift your hand. from the C-D-E position to the F-G-A-B position.

As you can see, there is no thumb movement (under or over), The thumb stays quietly there and the arm repositions it.

The next step is to speed up the shift between E-F and B-C and slow down the fast C-D-E and F-G-A-B groups to the top speed you can manage the shift accurately. And this is one of the paradoxes of piano playing: in order to sound even you must move unevenly. Get used to it. It happens all the time.

So rather than practise the whole scale, it makes sense to practise only the difficult bit: the shift. So, put your 3rd finger on E and press the key. Now shift your hand and press the F with the thumb by using the arm to move the hand to its new position. This is not a jump, but a glide. Your hand should be so close to the keyboard as you move that it touches it lightly. Then do the same with the B-C shift. The temptation at this stage is to put the thumb on the F, the 3rd finger on the E and just switch between them. This is really practising thumb under. You don’t want to do that. Keep the thumb quiet in its normal position and move the arm/forearm/hand.

Now comes a very important step: as you move from E (3rd finger) to F (thumb), when you press the F, fingers 2-3-4 should already be in place, on top of G-A-B. You want to avoid them landing in any random key, and then having to shift them around to find the G-A-B. Avoid this “finger reaching” by practising the accurate placement of these fingers as you shift from E to F and from B to C. I call this preparation, and without it no one can ever play fast and smoothly.

Now you have mastered the rolling of the hand (CDE and FGAB) and the hand shifting (EF and BC). So now start putting it together by playing CDE (123) and shifting the hand to F (1) but do not play GAB (234) yet, just prepare by placing the fingers on the keys accurately and without pressing them. Do the same for FGABC (12341), but do not proceed to DE (23), just prepare by placing the fingers on top of the keys.

Finally, just do the scale at top speed. If you have followed all the steps above and moved to the next only after you were satisfied that you have mastered the step you were in, you should now be playing the scale at unbelievable speeds, evenly and without fatigue – and with never passing the thumb under. (or over – although this handshift is sometimes what people call thumb over).

One problem with this movement is that there is an audible break in the sound when you shift the hand. To achieve a legato sound you either will have to use the pedal in the spots where the hand shifts, or you will need to play at a very fast speed so that by the time the damper returns to the string you have already sounded the next note.

Which is why at slow speeds, many resort to thumb under to achieve a legato sound.

However, this is just one basic movement. The only reason to practise it in isolation is to understand the movement. In real life you are not going to play like this (there is no need to limit oneself unnecessarily). In isolation, this movement requires a huge hand shift. What we need is to combine it with another movement that will allow a physical connection between the relevant keys. And this is our next movement: rotation

2. Rotation.

This means forearm rotation. Do not bring your fingers up and down on the keys. Instead use a rotation of the forearm to bring the fingers down. Put your right hand on a desk top. Keep the thumb in touch with the desk top, and now rotate the forearm towards your body (to the left) so that the four fingers go up in the air (the thumb remains in the desktop). Think of your hand like a door and the thumb as the hinge. The whole forearm/wrist/hand should be inline and move as single unit. Now bring the hand down by rotating to the left. Now go to the piano, press your thumb in middle C (keep it pressed) and use the rotation movement I just described to play D (2nd finger) rotate back, play E (3rd finger), rotate back , play F (4th finger) rotate back, play G (5th finger).

The only contribution of the fingers is to brace themselves at the moment they touch the keys so that they do not collapse under the weight of the arm.

There, you have just got rid of the need for any exercise whatsoever to develop the 4th finger ability to lift. All this stupidity with Hanon about lifting fingers high! First, you do not play the piano up, you play it down. And as far as going down, the fourth finger is as good as any of the other fingers (just try it, bend each finger in turn at the knuckle joint and see/feel if there is any particular disadvantage in bringing the 4th finger down). There is no need to equalise fingers as far as going down goes because they are already equal in this regard. But surely, in order to bring the 4th finger down, one must be able to lift it some will say. Well, first of all, no matter how many exercises you do, you will never be able to equalise the fourth finger as far as lifting is concerned because the 4th finger shares a tendon with the 3rd finger. So that is that. Don’t waste time. But most importantly, you do not need to lift the 4th finger independently: your hand can do it for you by using the rotation movement.

Now let us see how to play a scale using this rotation movement. Do this slowly to understand the movements. I will describe the right hand. The left hand is the same in reverse. Start by playing C with the thumb. Rather than pressing down with the thumb, keep your hand and fingers quiet and rotate the forearm to the left in order to bring the thumb down on the key. Brace the thumb and use the forearm/wrist/hand as a single unit to press down the key. With this first rotation, you have brought the second finger up as well, so now bring it down on the D by rotating to the right. For the moment exaggerate this rotation so that the second finger is almost on the side and your palm is facing your body (left). Now keep the second finger depressing the D, and rotate (pivoting on the second finger) back to the left in order to bring the 3rd finger up. Now your palm should be facing the right (outside). We are exaggerating these movements to understand what is going on. Later these movements will be so tiny you will not be able to see them. Rotate back to the right bringing the 3rd finger on E. Your palm should now be facing towards your body (to the left), and the weight of your arm should be resting on the 3rd finger which is slightly sideways and resting on the (depressed) E key.

Now look carefully at this position because here lies the key to everything. Your thumb should be in the air nail up, pad down, in line with the 3rd finger which is sideways resting on the E key. If you now rotate back the hand to the left (palm goes down) and do a minimal shift to the side (it is so minimal that you may not even need to do it) this rotation will bring your thumb right on the F with it never needing to be brought under the hand

As you bring the thumb down on the F, by rotating the hand to the left, the 2nd finger goes up again in readiness to press the G on the next hand rotation.

In the typical “thumb under” movement, you must rotate the arm (usually with the elbow shooting up in the air) to the left, so that the thumb can go under. Your palm will be facing away from your body and your thumb will be bent under the palm – a very inefficient and injury prone position.

In the movement I just described, exactly the opposite takes place. When the time comes for the thumb to press the F, the palm is facing towards the body, the hand/arm is rotated to the right, and the thumb does not need at all to go under the hand. Quite the opposite, the thumb is in a free, highly efficient and injury free position.

This is the basic thumb over movement. But as you can see, it has little to do with the thumb going over the hand.

As you get used to this movement, you will notice that to use it by itself is going to demand a lot of back and forth rotations. But, you do not want to use just that movement. Why should you? Never practise these movements isolation: They will destroy your co-ordination (the reason why any exercise that aims at training isolation – usually they call it “independence”, which is a very different thing – like Hanon, Pischna, Dohnanyi and the like, are to be avoided like the plague). The only reason to isolate rotation is to understand the movement. The moment you understand it, there is no need to practise it. Instead, move on to the next basic movement and master it. What you will be practising is the co-ordination of these four movements, Not the isolated movements.

So if you now combine the hand shift with the rotation, you will be able to make both of them much smaller. The hand shift means that you do not need to rotate so exaggeratly, and the rotation means that the hand shift does not need to be so large.

By successfully co-ordinating both movements your scales should start to sound amazing.

Now we must add a third movement: hand slanting.

3. Start by working on this movement by itself, just so that you know what is it that we are talking about. But the moment you get the hang of it, immediately co-ordinate it with the two previous movements.

Place your 3rd finger on E. Now, keep your forearm/wrist/3rd finger all aligned (the 3rd finger should be in line with the bones of the forearm). You must keep this alignment at all times. Now slant your forearm in relation to the keyboard by pivoting on the 3rd finger, so that your 3rd finger/hand/forearm are not parallel to the keys anymore, but make an angle to the keyboard. Explore the range of “slanting” that you can do comfortably. It is very important that you keep the foream/finger alignment – don’t let the hand twist at the wrist. Now as you slant your hand so that your elbow goes away from you, you will see that this brings the thumb to the F without any need to pass it over or under. So now start playing CDE (123). On C, the fingers will be parallel to the keys. On D (2), start slanting the hand, on E (3) the hand should be slanted enough so that the thumb is out of the hand (neither under nor over) and yet on top of the F. As you play the F, the hand goes back to parallel with the keys (do not break the alignment).

Now if you combine this new movement with shifting and rotation, each movement should have become so small as to be virtually undectatable by the eye: All you see is finger movement, but actually there is no finger movement at all! It is all rotation, slanting and shifting done by the arm.

The main problem at this stage is to keep the forearm/wrist/finger alignment. Because the thumb is shorter, there is a huge temptation to “reach” for the F/C with the thumb breaking the alignment (and increasing the risk of an injury).

So we need one last basic movement.

4. Backwards and forwards movement of the arm

Put your 3rd finger on E at the edge of the key. The thumb should be out of the keyboard, and the 2nd finger almost off. If your piano thinking is finger oriented, you are going to twist your hand in order to play the C with the thumb. I call this “reaching for the key with the finger”. Never do it. You are setting yourself up for injury. And it is a very inefficient movement. I recently saw a recital where the pianist played like that. It was painful to watch and you could see he was really struggling.

Instead. bring the arm forward and in this way place the thumb in the C key. Don’t curl your long fingers as you do that. Keep them in their natural curvature. Once you play the C, pull the arm back again so that the long fingers don’t need to play too much into the keys. As you play there should be constant forward and backward movement of the arms to negotiate the different lengths of the fingers and the geography of each scale. B major requires the least amount of back & forth movement, C major requires the greatest amount. Before tackling any scale you must figure out the pattern of back and forth movements for that particular scale.

Finally add this movement to the previous three, and you will be amazed how invisible they all become since each movement helps the others.

There is also a misunderstanding of use of time. You are in Iowa, two hours ahead of me, why not take your wife out to a great dinner? Better use of time I should think.

I am amazed that you take this thread seriously. You write well as always, but basically you end up being as mystified as the rest of us, it seems to be endemic to a desire to be helpful in some sense, even in the face of idiocy.

Your wordy post comes off to me as so patronizing. I do not need a lesson from you on 'internet' issues. No wonder I was such a terror at uni!