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Out of tune tuning fork #1632197
03/03/11 07:33 AM
03/03/11 07:33 AM
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My tuning fork is out of tune. it is supposed to be tuned to a C, but it plays half a semitone flat. I vaguely remember somebody whacking it very hard. does this put a tuning fork out of tune? is there a way to pitch raise this particular fork, or is there another way (besides getting new one). or is it impossible to do a pitch raise?

thanks,
rotom

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Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: PassingBy] #1632200
03/03/11 07:39 AM
03/03/11 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Rotom
My tuning fork is out of tune. it is supposed to be tuned to a C, but it plays half a semitone flat. I vaguely remember somebody whacking it very hard. does this put a tuning fork out of tune? is there a way to pitch raise this particular fork, or is there another way (besides getting new one). or is it impossible to do a pitch raise?

thanks,
rotom


No, you can't whack a fork too hard and make it ring out of tune! It will have been like that from the factory. You can re-tune a fork that is flat by grinding of some material from the ends of both forks. grind it a tiny bit at a time and measure it regularly with an electronic tuner. Make sure both forks are the same length. If you proceed very carefully and slowly, you should be fine. If your grinder isn't fine enough, use a metal hand-file so you can remove finer amounts.

Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: PassingBy] #1632205
03/03/11 07:55 AM
03/03/11 07:55 AM
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wait... it says 512 Hz. What kind of tuning is that?

Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: PassingBy] #1632220
03/03/11 08:24 AM
03/03/11 08:24 AM
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I've never heard of that pitch as a standard. It's roughly 40 cents flat from C=523. A full semitone would be at 494 Hz.

Others would probably advise to buy a new one, but if the fork is useless to you in its current state anyway (which I presume it is), you could try to grind the tines shorter - in small increments, keeping both the same length, and testing the pitch after each grind. But beware, grinding would heat it up, lowering the pitch temporarily. So you'd need to cool the fork to room temperature each time, before testing the pitch against a standard. Otherwise, the pitch will be too high once it cools down.

The other concern would be to keep the ground ends rust free in future. Nevertheless, if you're one for experimentation, in my opinion it's worth a try.


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Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: PassingBy] #1632223
03/03/11 08:32 AM
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I will probably end up getting a new one, but as I am one for experimentation...

Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: PassingBy] #1632227
03/03/11 08:39 AM
03/03/11 08:39 AM
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The tuning fork you have is one that is used in the medical proffession to test for hearing, diabetic neuropathy, and other issues. It is not associated to any set musical pitch standard that I know of and it probably came as part of a set of testing forks originally.

It is important for the tines to be of equal length and if the fork is steel (not aluminum) you absolutely must check its pitch after a week if you have ground or filed it. It will go up or down slightly from the stresses dissapating and depending on if the tips or the crotch is filed.


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: PassingBy] #1632228
03/03/11 08:43 AM
03/03/11 08:43 AM
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Minnesota
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Originally Posted by Rotom
I will probably end up getting a new one, but as I am one for experimentation...

I am reminded of a saying that may apply here:

"A man with a thermometer knows the temperature. A man with two thermometers is never quite sure."

As an aside, I filed a 426 2/3 A fork down to make it 440.


Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com
Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: PassingBy] #1632233
03/03/11 08:48 AM
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emmery:

Haha! That's what wikipedia said smile.

And to Robert:

That saying is really relevant here. Thanks.

rotom

Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: ando] #1632421
03/03/11 12:59 PM
03/03/11 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ando
[ You can re-tune a fork that is flat by grinding of some material from the ends of both forks. grind it a tiny bit at a time and measure it regularly with an electronic tuner. Make sure both forks are the same length. If you proceed very carefully and slowly, you should be fine. If your grinder isn't fine enough, use a metal hand-file so you can remove finer amounts.


This is not quite correct. For fine tuning of a fork you don't grind off the ends to make them shorter. Both "legs" need to remain exactly the same length.

To make the fork go flat, you file on the inside of the legs down near the "crotch". To make the fork go sharp, you file on the inside of the legs up near the tips.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
Editor Emeritus, Piano Technicians Journal
Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: kpembrook] #1632543
03/03/11 03:13 PM
03/03/11 03:13 PM
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Melbourne, Australia
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Originally Posted by kpembrook
Originally Posted by ando
[ You can re-tune a fork that is flat by grinding of some material from the ends of both forks. grind it a tiny bit at a time and measure it regularly with an electronic tuner. Make sure both forks are the same length. If you proceed very carefully and slowly, you should be fine. If your grinder isn't fine enough, use a metal hand-file so you can remove finer amounts.


This is not quite correct. For fine tuning of a fork you don't grind off the ends to make them shorter. Both "legs" need to remain exactly the same length.

To make the fork go flat, you file on the inside of the legs down near the "crotch". To make the fork go sharp, you file on the inside of the legs up near the tips.


I'm sorry, but what I described will make a fork go sharper. A lot of tuning forks you buy have been finished off by hand and have been filed on the ends as I described. I've even got two of them in my possession which were fine tuned this way at the factory. Care to explain that? Length affects mass, both of which which are critical factors that affects the frequency of a tuning fork. You can do it the way you said too, but it's not much different when it's just fine-tuning.

To make a tuning fork ring optimally, you would ideally adjust the thickness of the tines in relation to their length, but for just fine-tuning them, this is not worth doing. I would only do what you suggested in the fork was a long way out. Unless you are very knowledgable about the physics of tuning forks, the most practical way to do it is to shorten the tines a little bit. I have fine-tuned two forks this way and they work perfectly.

Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: PassingBy] #1632581
03/03/11 04:05 PM
03/03/11 04:05 PM
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Mexico City
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Maybe what matters is that legs remain exactly the same length, so filing the edge is a sure way to go, length is not changed at all.

If you shorten the legs chances are that they won't be exactly the same length.

But what happens if the tines are not exactly the same thickness?


Last edited by Gadzar; 03/03/11 04:07 PM.

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Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: Gadzar] #1632622
03/03/11 05:06 PM
03/03/11 05:06 PM
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Minnesota
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Originally Posted by Gadzar
Maybe what matters is that legs remain exactly the same length, so filing the edge is a sure way to go, length is not changed at all.

If you shorten the legs chances are that they won't be exactly the same length.

But what happens if the tines are not exactly the same thickness?


Filing from the ends or the sides near the ends has the same effect - to raise the pitch. And doing either of those things unevenly will affect the sustain, but only if you leave them extremely mismatched. I don't think a small mismatch will have a noticeable effect.


Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com
Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: PassingBy] #1632628
03/03/11 05:10 PM
03/03/11 05:10 PM
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Consider the Rhodes piano, with its extremely mismatched tines!


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Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: Emmery] #1632707
03/03/11 06:24 PM
03/03/11 06:24 PM
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Jakobstad, Finland
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Originally Posted by Emmery
The tuning fork you have is one that is used in the medical proffession to test for hearing, diabetic neuropathy, and other issues. It is not associated to any set musical pitch standard that I know of and it probably came as part of a set of testing forks originally.


Good information, Emmery!


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Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: ando] #1632937
03/03/11 11:10 PM
03/03/11 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by kpembrook
Originally Posted by ando
[ You can re-tune a fork that is flat by grinding of some material from the ends of both forks. grind it a tiny bit at a time and measure it regularly with an electronic tuner. Make sure both forks are the same length. If you proceed very carefully and slowly, you should be fine. If your grinder isn't fine enough, use a metal hand-file so you can remove finer amounts.


This is not quite correct. For fine tuning of a fork you don't grind off the ends to make them shorter. Both "legs" need to remain exactly the same length.

To make the fork go flat, you file on the inside of the legs down near the "crotch". To make the fork go sharp, you file on the inside of the legs up near the tips.


I'm sorry, but what I described will make a fork go sharper. A lot of tuning forks you buy have been finished off by hand and have been filed on the ends as I described. I've even got two of them in my possession which were fine tuned this way at the factory. Care to explain that? Length affects mass, both of which which are critical factors that affects the frequency of a tuning fork. You can do it the way you said too, but it's not much different when it's just fine-tuning.

To make a tuning fork ring optimally, you would ideally adjust the thickness of the tines in relation to their length, but for just fine-tuning them, this is not worth doing. I would only do what you suggested in the fork was a long way out. Unless you are very knowledgable about the physics of tuning forks, the most practical way to do it is to shorten the tines a little bit. I have fine-tuned two forks this way and they work perfectly.


I'm not disputing the physics of it. Of course shorter legs will go sharp. I'm explaining more accepted fork tuning procedure. If you make the legs shorter, you can't get that length back easily. Filing on the inside edges is reversible -- you can go sharp and flat and back sharp again without removing much material.

It is the "proper" way to go about it because it is much more conservative and yet highly effective. When you remove material from the ends, you are both removing length and mass -- a much more radical approach. A 1-filestroke mismatch in mass from one leg to the other is much less significant than an imperfection in match in length between the two legs.

I don't know where you buy forks, but none of mine show any marks on the ends. They show filing on the insides of the legs.

Not just my own opinion, but have had two different classes that cover proper technique for tuning the tuning fork.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
Editor Emeritus, Piano Technicians Journal
Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: kpembrook] #1633058
03/04/11 01:17 AM
03/04/11 01:17 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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Originally Posted by kpembrook
Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by kpembrook
Originally Posted by ando
[ You can re-tune a fork that is flat by grinding of some material from the ends of both forks. grind it a tiny bit at a time and measure it regularly with an electronic tuner. Make sure both forks are the same length. If you proceed very carefully and slowly, you should be fine. If your grinder isn't fine enough, use a metal hand-file so you can remove finer amounts.


This is not quite correct. For fine tuning of a fork you don't grind off the ends to make them shorter. Both "legs" need to remain exactly the same length.

To make the fork go flat, you file on the inside of the legs down near the "crotch". To make the fork go sharp, you file on the inside of the legs up near the tips.


I'm sorry, but what I described will make a fork go sharper. A lot of tuning forks you buy have been finished off by hand and have been filed on the ends as I described. I've even got two of them in my possession which were fine tuned this way at the factory. Care to explain that? Length affects mass, both of which which are critical factors that affects the frequency of a tuning fork. You can do it the way you said too, but it's not much different when it's just fine-tuning.

To make a tuning fork ring optimally, you would ideally adjust the thickness of the tines in relation to their length, but for just fine-tuning them, this is not worth doing. I would only do what you suggested in the fork was a long way out. Unless you are very knowledgable about the physics of tuning forks, the most practical way to do it is to shorten the tines a little bit. I have fine-tuned two forks this way and they work perfectly.


I'm not disputing the physics of it. Of course shorter legs will go sharp. I'm explaining more accepted fork tuning procedure. If you make the legs shorter, you can't get that length back easily. Filing on the inside edges is reversible -- you can go sharp and flat and back sharp again without removing much material.

It is the "proper" way to go about it because it is much more conservative and yet highly effective. When you remove material from the ends, you are both removing length and mass -- a much more radical approach. A 1-filestroke mismatch in mass from one leg to the other is much less significant than an imperfection in match in length between the two legs.

I don't know where you buy forks, but none of mine show any marks on the ends. They show filing on the insides of the legs.

Not just my own opinion, but have had two different classes that cover proper technique for tuning the tuning fork.


That's all very nice and thorough, but when a total newbie asks how best to sharpen his tuning fork, I feel the suggestion I gave is more practical than yours. Not because yours is wrong, but because it requires you to have a very detailed understanding of exactly where to file and why - after all, you had to take two classes to get to your present level of expertise. I took a course in the physics of sound and tuning forks were covered there. I understand what you have described but I wouldn't want to try and explain all that on a forum post. It needs diagrams and lots of words.

I haven't disputed anything you've said, I just think in this particular instance, shortening the tines very cautiously is easier to describe and easier to do.

Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: PassingBy] #1633090
03/04/11 02:43 AM
03/04/11 02:43 AM
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I think in this instance, the best bet would be to get a tuning fork made for tuning! A good, steel fork tuned to 440 or 523.3.


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Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: PassingBy] #1633106
03/04/11 03:40 AM
03/04/11 03:40 AM
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Pretoria, South Africa
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Well, for my part, I've learnt something new: tuning forks can be tuned reversibly.It's quite logical, once you think about it: it's a "sprung mass" system. Make the spring less stiff, and the frequency goes down. Make the mass lighter, and it goes back up. And no rocket science either. Brilliant! Thanks for that, Keith!

This is really useful information to me, because my 440 Hz fork is a tad sharp. Not sure by how much, but on my chromatic Korg, which has 5 cent markings on the scale, it lights both the green "0" and the red "+" lights, and sometimes the "needle" actually dances between 0 and +5 cents.

It's debatable, however, whether a pitch raise from 512 to 523 Hz still qualifies as "fine tuning" of a fork.

By the way, my fork is Nickel-plated, and the only file marks I can find, are indeed on the ends of the tines.


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Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: PassingBy] #1633541
03/04/11 05:46 PM
03/04/11 05:46 PM
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Can I ask a silly question? Are forks so expensive that it isn't simpler to just go and buy a new accurate one? This discussion has been very interesting, but is filing forks a useful skill for a technician in practice? Am I naive for thinking that you buy an accurate fork, and it just stays accurate?

Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: Mark R.] #1633560
03/04/11 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark R.
Well, for my part, I've learnt something new: tuning forks can be tuned reversibly.It's quite logical, once you think about it: it's a "sprung mass" system. Make the spring less stiff, and the frequency goes down. Make the mass lighter, and it goes back up. And no rocket science either. Brilliant! Thanks for that, Keith!

This is really useful information to me, because my 440 Hz fork is a tad sharp. Not sure by how much, but on my chromatic Korg, which has 5 cent markings on the scale, it lights both the green "0" and the red "+" lights, and sometimes the "needle" actually dances between 0 and +5 cents.

It's debatable, however, whether a pitch raise from 512 to 523 Hz still qualifies as "fine tuning" of a fork.

By the way, my fork is Nickel-plated, and the only file marks I can find, are indeed on the ends of the tines.


I agree that for a fork that is way different than the target pitch that the appropriate step would be simply to start with a fork that was nominally the pitch you wanted.

I'll take the term "nominally" and use that to suggest that we need to be skeptical of anyone's assertions of pitch unless they say how they arrived there. I think most cheap forks have maybe a 50% chance of being right on.

Which gets to the next point. We have a worship of electronics that causes us to think they must be "right". The skepticism applies equally well to the assumptions about the Korg tuner. It could be that the Korg is off and the fork is on -- or that they are both off.

Cheap "tuners" are not really any more reliable than a fork. Personally, I wouldn't trust anything other than a real frequency counter that had been calibrated to WWV or the equivalent.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
Editor Emeritus, Piano Technicians Journal
Re: Out of tune tuning fork [Re: PassingBy] #1633630
03/04/11 07:17 PM
03/04/11 07:17 PM
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I probably will end up buying a new one to use, but this was just to see if I could change the pitch of this particular tuning fork. There have been some really interesting posts here, and I will definitely try some of these suggestions. As I said, I am a person for experimenting!

thank you all,
Rotom


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