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..."You can't get something for nothing. Whatever improvement you make in any interval results in a loss of desirable quality in another."...

Hello Bill, I'm glad you have come to a true conclusion. What you write can explain why the "one size fits all" must proportion all beats for all intervals, like in a beating-whole. Then the size can be one - a logarithmic ratio for both intervals and beats - in that we can learn of it (logarithmics) from nature.

Regards, a.c.

Yes, Alfredo and that is why I prefer to make a delicate balance with the cycle of 5ths that includes equal beating rapid and slowly beating intervals. ET does not do that for the RBIs but the EBVT III does. I have known it for many years and have done it for many years. It was discovered nearly 300 years ago by Johann Georg Neidhardt.

Bill:

Your collection of Straw Men reminds me of the Terra-Cotta Soldiers that were unearthed in China!

Nobody is saying that this so called RW error in ET does not exist. All sorts of errors in ET exist. When I hear EBVTIII, my mind hears it as an error in ET. And when I read of CM3 tuners deriding the value of the outside M6 inside M3 test I conclude that a faulty ET is being tuned. If the M3s are progressive, but the inside-outside test does not work, then the M6s can’t be progressive, and the P4s are haphazard.

I suppose I could get on a high horse and proclaim to the World that I have found a systematic error that is overlooked and nobody believes me exists, all for the sake of being able to pass an exam and is actually ruining ET as It is Meant to Be. (And I may not be far off the Truth…)

But then I would be just a Nattering Nabob of Narcissism.

..."I prefer to make a delicate balance with the cycle of 5ths that includes equal beating rapid and slowly beating intervals. ET does not do that for the RBIs but the EBVT III does."...

Bill, I do respect your preference, be it your preference. But, wasn't the whole "color" conjecture based on beat variation? Why then all this equal beating?

..."ET does not do that for the RBIs..."...

You are right, this (ET) is where I find color, unique RBIs, none of them being...equal. And only two SBIs being equal-beating, 12ths and 15ths.

a.c.

Then if your goal is to have nothing equal-beating, so as to have color, then you are defeating yourself by having the 12ths and 15ths beat equally. A house divided against itself cannot stand.

..."Then if your goal is to have nothing equal-beating,..."...

Hello Jeff,

Did I say the goal you mention is my goal? Nope, I was referring to the "color" conjecture.

a.c.

Smoke and mirrors.

Unright,

To check the fourths there are better tests than the outside M6 inside M3. Because if this tests shows wrong you don't know wich notes are in fault.

Of course, if you want to achieve a good ET you must check fourths! but I believe outside M6 inside M3 is not the best tool for doing that!

In this test you are comparing a M6 to a M3 which have no common notes, so you use 4 different notes. Let's take for example F3-D4/G3-B3.

F3-D4 can be considered as M3+P4, F3-A3 + A3-D4.

It can be considered also as P4+M3, F3-A#3 + A#3-D4

So if your test proves wrong you have still to check all of this intervals before doing any correction:

M3 F3-A3
M3 G3-B3
M3 A#3-D4
P4 F3-A#3
P4 A3-D4

That is 5 intervals involving 6 notes. Which one(s) is(are) in fault? You don't know.

So now you have to check M3s, P4s, P5s, 8ves, etc... to clearly identify which notes need correction. And for doing that you will use other tests. The question is then: why not to make these tests in the first place?

The best test I know for doing such refinements of your temperament is playing chromatic runs of a given interval: M3s, p4s, P5s, etc... Coupled with contiguos intervals tests: CM3, CP4s, CP5s. These tests stand out you the uneven interval and show you directly which note is out of tune, in which direction, flat or sharp and by how much.

I see the outside M6 inside M3 as an additional final test to check that everything is alright, but not as you look at it as an "invaluable test without which a faulty ET will be tuned".

All chords sound the same in ET?? This is preposterous. The thirds noticeably and consistently slow down as you move from treble into tenor. This naturally creates distinction between the keys. The key of F most certainly sounds different then the key of B flat.

This blabber about "all keys sounding the same" is pure fantasy. Not only do the speed of the thirds change, but the fact that the pitch is higher and lower has a huge effect on color and feeling.

Of course pure fifths only occure in pythagorian tuning. My point was that with the right amount of stretch the fifths will sound very close to pure and this creates more balance between major and minor thirds.

There are beats, and then there are compound beats which are "beating beats". With ET there is more consistency in these types of beats as well, which, to me, creates a feeling of harmony.

DoelKeys: Jorgenson admitted that his research was limited to that which was written in English, and tried to rationalize the England wasn't all that behind what was happening in Austria or France.

Gadzar:

You have previously stated that you have tuned progressive M3s and M6s with somewhat haphazard 4ths and performed the outside-inside test, not by comparing beats, but by feeling them through your fingers.

I don't think we can have a producive discussion on this subject.

I've never said that!

Where did you read it?

I tune by hearing beats, and I never tune haphazard 4ths, or anyother interval. And I even don't understand what you are talking about with: "feeling them through your fingers".

As I say I play runs of M3s, P4s, P5, M6, M10s, M17s, etc.

And I check conntiguous intervals CM3s, CP4s and Cp5s.

And I always correct any note that sticks out its head! After that I don't need the outside M6 inside M3 test.


In one thing you are right: I can not have a productive discussion with you, as you think you are the only one perfect piano tuner in this world, you are always right, and the rest of us, mortals, we are always wrong.

Gadzar:

Among other places, it was in the Topic where you posted a video of an equal temperament on your piano. If you can recall the name of the Topic, I should be able to point out what you posted.

Here is the post I remember from this Topic: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1347183/4/Does%20a



No, I did not have all the details correct. But the things you wrote do not add up.

Yes, you don't have the details correct! And you can't call this "tuning haphazard 4ths", nor "tuning feeling through your fingers"!

So you never make compromises?

And if you ever make compromises then you are tuning haphazard intervals?

And for the fingers, do you think we hear the same things at the piano than in a video? I said it clearly, but you seem to not understand my english:



From what I said you take out and keep only what you want, and you change the meaning of my words to what you want to understand.

The whole subject of this thread was ET, of course no piano is perfect and I made compromises at the break (don't you?).

When compromising, we have to sacrifice something. You have always said that you prefer to sacrifice RBIs progression over SBIs, does that mean that you are doing sloppy tunings or haphazard intervals or tuning faulty ET?

I insist I never tune haphazard 4ths and I don't tune feeling through my fingers but hearing beats.

Unfortunately (because I like to have arguments for UT) I have to agree. Even in ET there are key colors. If we restrict ourselves to the piano keys a 4th or fifth apart will sound most different in this respect.

I don't have absolute pitch but a piece transposed down a semitone sounds subtly mellower, though I can't reliably identify if it has been transposed without hearing both within say an hour.

UT of course adds on top of this. If I do hear F# major sounding sour in for example Werckmeister 3 that is a tuning effect. I do hear that and it sounds unpleasant and out of tune to me.

Kees

I see it totally in a different way:

Key color in UTs is another thing than merely increasing frequences when going up a semitone.

Key color, when you step up a semitone in UTs, is a drastic change in the interrelation between intervals, that does not exist in ET.

It is the lack of such drastic, abrupt changes between keys that makes ET "colorless" when compared to UTs.

Rafael,

You are entirely correct in the way that you have stated the above. In fact, you did it better than I could. Although there is an infrequent but minor flaw in your English which gives away the fact that English is not your primary language, you write it better than most people in this forum.

I have heard these same arguments that ET somehow has "key color" from ET only proponents now for 25 years. You can explain it once, twice or maybe three times but after that, you may as well be talking to a brick wall. If they like the sound they get from ET, that is fine with me. It is considered "standard practice" and they have that on their side and to their advantage.

I no longer respond to certain people who write in here but I report their efforts and "bullying", as I have been accused of when the language gets rude and insulting enough to do so. The arguments presented by some ET only advocates clearly show to me a lack of foundation. They also show a lack of experience, otherwise these arguments would not be made, over and over again.

I will say this. The recent Journal series was highly insulting and undignified in its presentation coming less than a year after the demise of the single most important and eminent researcher on tuning history there has ever been. The insult came in the very first part of the series and then it was heaped on again in the end.

The one statement that raised my eyebrows early on was that "meantone has no color" because all of the fifths are tuned alike. This is no less ridiculous than ET proponents arguing that ET has "color" because each Major third beats differently.

I think it is time to let this thread die. It was originally about a novice tuner's perception that she could hear and handle 4ths & 5ths easier and more reliably than she could any of the RBI's. She was informed about the importance of studying and making use of the RBI's. She clearly understood what was said and I am sure that it was well impressed upon her.

I suggest that you simply not respond to the certain individuals who keep on "poking" you, misquote you and otherwise try to provoke you into a heated discussion. You know what you are doing and obviously have a very thorough understanding of it. It would be a better idea to engage in conversations with the other individuals who have similar interests or are at least open minded about learning and understanding them rather than to keep arguing with people who don't want to know what they don't know.

@Kees, Ryan: I can't agree on this. The "colors" you are talking about are a matter of differences in pitch, well known to show tune composers transposing the last chorus up 1/2 step or a whole step.

But if you take a theoretically perfect ET and record a piece in, lets say, C major, then slow the recording down so it sounds a tritone lower (F# major), the beatrate of the slowed down C4-E4 M3 should naturally sound the way the beat rate of a F#3-A#3 did on the original piano.

These are not key color differences to me, just the effect you get when you move something up and down in pitch.

The closest analogy i can come up with is gray-scale (ET) compared to color. You can adjust brightness and contrast ( = transpose), and yes it is brighter higher up and more mellow lower down, but it's still gray-scale.

Now, I do personally like gray-scale, too, but it has its strength precisely in the lack of color - Trying to impose colors where there are none is just taking away from that strength.

Thank you, Patrick,

Again, a very excellent perspective on the subject of supposed "color" in ET. It was explained much better than I could have.

Yes, thank-you, I appreciate the value of all intervals and really appreciated all of the advice. I've also learned more then I need to know about petty squabbling, so Gentlemen, please let's take it elsewhere and bid a good-night to this topic. A sincere and heartfelt thank-you to all of you who took the time to reply to my original query.