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#163000 - 02/27/07 11:03 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 42
westland Offline
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Hong Kong
I've found this thread interesting, as I live in Hong Kong, and recently had my 1950's vintage August Forster rebuild up in ZhuHai by Eddy Piano here. Eddy (the owners English name) has to be the most knowledgable piano technician I have ever met. And during my visits to his factory, he gave me some insight into how China is revolutionizing piano building. It's nothing really radical, but they have aggressively adopted CNC for nearly every part that can be cost effectively made, and at a scale unmatched anywhere, including Japan and Korea (most of the machines are in Samick, Cort, etc. factories in Tianjin as I understand). Then they have quality woodworkers at a fraction of the cost of Japan, Germany etc. As far as I can see, there is nowhere where the knowledge of guys like Eddy lags their European or Japanese counterparts. Where the building differs is in innovation to keep the price affordable.

And as one post mentioned, China is in the position of Japan in the 1960s ... it doesn't have a good reputation for quality. So it is common to buy up established brands like Wendl& Lung for example. My guess is that the modern piano industry is like the watch industry. Most of the work happens in China, but final assembly and setup occurs in the home country. Part of this may be quality control, but I suspect a lot of it is just transfer pricing and bragging rights (German piano vs. Chinese). Again, as far as I can see, the Chinese piano makers have the same skills, knowledge and dedication to quality that their European or Japanese peers do; they just don't have the reputation yet.


_ _ _ _________________________ _ _ _
August Förster (Loebau) 145 c.1953 | Yamaha P120 | Hammond XM-2 | Rob Allen Deep 4 | Ritter Roya 4
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#163001 - 02/28/07 11:42 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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Mario Bruneau Offline
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Hi Dino Flacco,

Thanks for your valuable informations. There is something wrong thought, you wrote:

Quote
A couple of years ago, give or take, this dealer did buy some Wendl & Lung pianos I am told but W & L is no longer distributing in the U.S. My statement concerning current distribution is accurate.
I am the distributer/retailer for Wendl&Lung in Québec - Eastern Canada. I am located near the US borders in Eastern Townships of Québec.

I already have one Mod.178 grand and another one on the way. Just came back from a trip to Vienna for a 3 weeks training with M. Peter Veletzky and M. Sibin Zlatkovic. Those people are soo nice and passionate of what they do. All the staff at Wendl&Lung are real musicians and artists. It was the first time in my 30 years career as piano tech-tuner that I meet people with this profile. I was used to "businessman". So refreshing!

#163002 - 02/28/07 02:42 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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Norbert Offline
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Quote
I am the distributer/retailer for Wendl&Lung in Québec - Eastern Canada. I am located near the US borders in Eastern Townships of Québec.

I already have one Mod.178 grand and another one on the way.
How is this posssible?

As Dino pointed out, there is a firm agreement in place that Wendl&Lung pianos are not to be marketed or sold anywhere in North America.

And Steigerman Premium pianos, specially built to our very own specifications for this market by the way - *not* in Europe.

Of course, one could always rent a warehouse near Vienna and get going there..... thumb

By the way, I have never heard of a *distributor* who starts with one single piano.

You're sure you're not "distributing" this piano just to yourself?

Norbert


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642 www.eliteheritagepianos.ca Edmonton, Alta dealers for Estonia,
Brodmann 780-405-8908
#163003 - 02/28/07 02:56 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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David Rooksby
D.S.M., Pearl River & Ritmuller Pianos
US/CANADA Marketing Director
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#163004 - 02/28/07 06:10 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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JohnEB Offline
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Belgium
Some time ago in this thread Norbert asked Schwammerl why he was getting so exercised about Hailun/Steigerman/W&L when he was so happy with his W&L. While I can't answer for Schwammerl, I can answer on my behalf, as I'm in the same position. I bought a W&L in the full knowledge it's made in China (it has Ningbo in big letters on the frame) and I'm very happy with it almost a year later.

However when I realised that (probably) the same piano is sold under the name Hailun and another very similar piano (possibly the same design but with different action) I did fell a little cheated. It shook my faith in what I'd understood the relationship between W&L and Hailun to be, and made me think that the great, cheap piano I'd bought wasn't quite so special.

Now I've got over all that (after playing the piano, a lot) but I would still like to understand the relationship between W&L and Steigerman Premium to work out if they're really the same or not.

But I can't say I'm too exercised about it - I'm more interested in playing my lovely W&L/Hailun 161 grand.


John
#163005 - 02/28/07 06:42 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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Norbert Offline
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Quote
But I can't say I'm too exercised about it - I'm more interested in playing my lovely W&L/Hailun 161 grand.
Which is what it's really all about. thumb

Many people here don't understand - and I don't really blame them - that making a product and marketing it,especially around the world,are 2 different things.

I don't know about Wendl & Lung in Vienna, but Canadian based Steigerman Music Corp has been a distributor of pianos on this continent for a very long time.

They were the ones first bringing Yamaha pianos first to Canada [in the early 60's I believe...] at a time nobody knew of Yamaha or wanted to see their name on a piano.

Call it what you will, but the Loewen family [owners] certainly always had a nose for what's moving and shaking.

Or coming up..... wink

Hailun may make the most wonderful piano in the world - but they need someone help them to bring it to market.

If one day they will be big enough to run the whole show by themselves, so be it.

Yamaha did the same, but their pianos didn't stay at the $ 200 for new uprights at the time they were simply called 'Steigerman' back in the 60's.

Norbert


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642 www.eliteheritagepianos.ca Edmonton, Alta dealers for Estonia,
Brodmann 780-405-8908
#163006 - 02/28/07 07:06 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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weazer Offline
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Utah
So I heard that the president of Hailun USA (Theresa Perry) is the wife of the CEO of Pearl River. How interesting is that?

#163007 - 02/28/07 07:09 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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turandot Offline
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from Norbert

Quote
Hailun may make the most wonderful piano in the world - but they need someone help them to bring it to market.

If one day they will be big enough to run the whole show by themselves, so be it.

Yamaha did the same, but their pianos didn't stay at the $ 200 for new uprights at the time they were simply called 'Steigerman' back in the 60's
Norbert,

Could you elaborate on the help that a distributor such as Steigerman would provide to a factory such as Hailun in bringing its products to market? I'm not trying to be cute with this question. I think it would be very enlightening to know. I think I understand the W&L connection to be more a piano design collaboration than a simple distribution channel. What is the Steigerman expertise that Hailun profits from?

Also, I think you're saying from the Yamaha example that when Hailun sells its porducts through a distribution channel like Steigerman the consumer will pay less. In a normal marketing chain, the price goes up with each entity that is added between maker and final consumer. How does the consumer save here?

Again, I'm not trying to be cute. I'd like to have a better understanding.


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The fate of the modern wartime soldier
#163008 - 02/28/07 10:30 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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Norbert Offline
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Turandot:

Before I entered the piano business I had very little understanding myself of how the market works - or for that matter anything else in business.

Please let me try to answer some of your questions here to the very best of my since additionally 'learned' knowledge though I certainly shall make no attempt to be a lecturer of economics.... wink

Distribution, as anybody in business knows, has long become a very important aspect of selling all kinds of goods, especially worldwide, something I learned in a rather shocking way as young kid when growing up in Germany.

At that time my father worked for Siemens, a very respected German company. As an employee, my dad was able to get all our home appliances considerably cheaper by buying "in house" - as a result, all our radios,TV's washing machines,etc were of the "Siemens" brand.

One day when our TV needed some fixing, a repair Van pulled up with the sign "Sony Reparaturen" on it.

To my dad's and my own's disbelief [my dad worked mostly on the company's large turbines and big stuff division...] - we learned at that time that the entire inside of the "Siemens" TV had actually been manufactured by Sony in Japan, a company with far greater home electronics market penetration than Siemens ever had.

German consumers, always preferring to buy their own home made stuff, of course now got solidly *cheated*, as the goods they were buying had actually been manufactered by someone else in Japan.....

Or had they?

It's the first time I learned about the intricate, intermixed world of business between manufacturer and distributors - Sony apparently in return acting as a 'distributor' for Siemens, selling Siemens turbines to some of their own customers far East.....

For outsiders, Sony and Siemens may have looked like competitors in the market - but in reality they had long become allies resulting in selling more stuff as a combined market force!

Enter Hailun and the piano business.
[and the rest of the world if you will... wink ]

Companies, especially new ones like Hailun specializing mainly in manufacturing, often depend on distributors with large established market penetration, this in order to get their product happening in a rather fast way - certainly much quicker than they could ever have done it all on their own.

Steigerman, as the previous distributors for a variety of pianos including Yamaha, Samick and several other makers, happens to be such company.

Adding important propietory features to the piano itself - this in addition to a better known private label name, at least in our hemisphere [nobody is denying it *is*] - the resulting larger orders for factory result not only in a much wider market spread, but also translate into much more aggressive investment opportunities and R&D,etc for the mother company itself.

Essentially and often misunderstood, this not only lowers the cost of manufacturing for the factory itself - but also typically affects actually lower price levels for consumers in the end. [called 'economics of scale'...]

This is exactly, what Steigerman Music Corp or Wendl & Lung *can* and *are* doing for Hailun - to specifically answer your question.

Were this not the case, these companies would never even dream to work together on the scale they are now.

For consumers in general and high end products aside, the essential question wether or not to buy a product on the market today, will simply depend on what the product offers itself in terms of quality and price.

Far less appear to be interested to analyse detail corporate structures and/or the interwovenness of international business today.

In case of doubt, one can simply always buy something entirely different,however such product makes sense to you - being an individual and seeing things on an individual basis. thumb

For example something such as a hopelessly overpriced, but otherwise non-chalant, non-distinguishable, virtually everyday-type of product,pricing itself primarily on name recognition only - of course nicely manufactured and distributed by same, identical company of original manufacture.... :p

Rest assured, the owner/CEO or chairman will insist to live in utter, opulent and almost unimaginable luxury as well.

Of course at - *your* expense......

Norbert laugh


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642 www.eliteheritagepianos.ca Edmonton, Alta dealers for Estonia,
Brodmann 780-405-8908
#163009 - 03/01/07 05:26 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,031
schwammerl Offline
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schwammerl  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Belgium
From Norbert:
Quote
Many people here don't understand - and I don't really blame them - that making a product and marketing it,especially around the world,are 2 different things.
and:
Quote
Distribution, as anybody in business knows, has long become a very important aspect of selling all kinds of goods, especially worldwide, something I learned in a rather shocking way as young kid when growing up in Germany.
and:
Quote
Companies, especially new ones like Hailun specializing mainly in manufacturing, often depend on distributors with large established market penetration, this in order to get their product happening in a rather fast way - certainly much quicker than they could ever have done it all on their own.
First of all I am confident that many people on this forum do understand the mechanics of marketing channels, that they are not necessarily shocked by partnerships, parts exchanges etc. and that many realise that setting up a world-wide marketing channel for any product or service is perhaps one of the most difficult and expensive exercises for any business; for many businesses marketing expenses largely exceed R&D, development and production costs.
Typically a company will have to decide about the "level-type" of distribution channel (and the number of intermediates within each channel):
- it could be a zero-level channel where the manufacturer is selling directly to the consumer; e.g. Samsonite Corp. has in major cities of the world own Samsonite shops (owning the shop and selling directly to the enduser), or as far as these or owned by S&S, Steinway has shops like Steinway Berlin or London;
- it could be a one-level channel, where the manufacturer is selling through various retailers;
- or a two-level channel with as intermediates wholesalers = distributors (either on a exclusive or selective basis) and retailers. An example of a wholesaler/distributor in the piano business would be Geneva Int'l for Petrof in North America (non exclusive because they also carry other brands form other manufacturers like Nordiska)
Choices have to be made on the basis of economic criteria, control criteria and adaptive criteria (commitments made by the various intermediates invariably lead to a decrease in the producer's ability to respond to a changing marketplace).

But this is not a marketing forum. Anyone wishing to more about the subject might e.g. by a book like "Marketing Management" by Philip Kotler (Prentice_Hall International, Inc.) and read chapter 20.

This is even not what it is all about. In this Hailun example there is not just a straight two-level distribution channel we are talking about. There is the classic model with Hailun U.S. as the wholesaler/distributor and the network of dealers they are now trying to set up in the U.S.. But Hailun also has other channel types where "intermediates" like W&L or Steigerman brand/label the products differently and make specific claims about parts used (hammers, actions, soundboards) or Q.C. prep., voicing or cabinet finishing details. Then I find it legimitate that consumers on this forum start asking questions like "are all these products the same or not?"
If today e.g. the Steigerman Premium line grands would get a ranking in L. Fine's book (assuming we all agree with the validity of those rankings) as a tier X and one would ask can I extrapolate that to a Hailun or W&L grand of the same size, I would say, today no you cannot. Perhaps in the future when many owners have shared their experiences, members who have testdriven these side by site have published their findings we might say something sensible about this. For the time being every potential buyer will have to judge these instruments on their own merrits, and - as a personal view - not forget to put the quality of a specific dealer into the balance; for me a pîano is only as good as the dealer is.

From JohnEB:
Quote
Some time ago in this thread Norbert asked Schwammerl why he was getting so exercised about Hailun/Steigerman/W&L when he was so happy with his W&L.
In fact I am not exercised about it. It is just when I read statements that to me look like over- simplifications or fast extrapolations I jump on it. No hidden agenda at all, as I was suspected one day - when at that time just merely looking at a W&L and still owning a Boston upright -, just sharing my views. If today someone would open a thread that starts like "Hailun HG161 - any good?", I will not reply "I own a W&L 161 and am very satisfied because of....; so you could not go wrong". That is an extrapolation I am not entitled to make today.

schwammerl.

#163010 - 03/01/07 05:08 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 142
Mario Bruneau Offline
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Posts: 142
Québec, Canada
Dino wrote:
Quote
In addition to the exclusivity on Renner hammers combined with the normal factory action, Steigerman also has an exclusive in the North American market on:

• “Schwaiger” produced soundboards for both vertical and grand pianos.

• “Bosendorfer Frame Color” for use in North America on both vertical and grand pianos.
So then no one can sell Bosendorfer in North America?

Dino wrote:
Quote
Terry Wilson was correct in saying that the Hailun pianos are “very impressive”. I know Mr. Hailun Chen very well and he is committed to producing the best pianos to come from China. He has gone to great lengths to insure that his design and production is top-quality by employing engineers and technicians such as:

• George “Frank” Emerson – Formerly of Mason & Hamlin and Baldwin is the factory’s Chief Designer.
• Zlatkovic Sibin - From Europe who brings his experience with Bosendorfer into the factory is in charge of tuning and voicing in the factory.
• Peter Veletzky – From the Wendl & Lung family in Austria is the factory’s Senior Technical advisor.
• Ema Shigeru – Brings manufacturing expertise from his 30 years at Kawai.
Actually Dino, it's rather the other way around:

Sibin Zlatkovic is the voicing and prep specialist of Wendl&Lung
Peter Veletzy is the piano designer of Wendl&Lung

Those two gentlemen are not employed by M. Chen, it is rather the opposite i.e. people at Wendl&Lung do business with M. Chen and his manufacturing facilities to make/build their pianos. They have a partnership.

Question here:

Dino, please tell me who is the piano designer of Steigerman?

Dino wrote:
Quote
The only pianos you will see from the Hailun factory in North America currently will be either from Hailun distribution or from Steigerman.
Here is a picture of the first Wendl&Lung in Canada. I have it here in Magog, Québec. Notice the Bosendorfer plate colour too.
[Linked Image]

Mario wrote:
Quote
I am the distributer/retailer for Wendl&Lung in Québec - Eastern Canada. I am located near the US borders in Eastern Townships of Québec.

I already have one Mod.178 grand and another one on the way.
Norbert wrote:
Quote
How is this posssible?

As Dino pointed out, there is a firm agreement in place that Wendl&Lung pianos are not to be marketed or sold anywhere in North America.
Apparently no!

Norbert wrote:
Quote
By the way, I have never heard of a *distributor* who starts with one single piano.
I Just came back from a master-training in voicing and piano prep at Wendl&Lung in Vienna. At Wendl&Lung they make sure with whom they deal with. They wont send pianos to plain businessman but rather to thru collaborators who can give justice to their pianos with good prep and service to buyers. At Wendl&Lung, they make things differently and this is what attracked me in the first place when I meet them at the 2006 Frankfurt MusikMesse. People at Wendl&Lung dont correspond to the profile one is used in the piano business.

They have given me the task of finding the “other” collaborators all over Québec Eastern Canada so that is why I used the term “distributer”. If you like Norbert, I can change that to “dealer”. Whatever suit you. wink But please give me a break, I must start somewhere! I’m just beginning in piano retail business. Piano tech-tuner for 30 years but never took a business in piano retail.

Norbert wrote:
Quote
You're sure you're not "distributing" this piano just to yourself?
Huh… I already own and play a 1893 Bluthner 7’

Then JohnEB wrote:
Quote
However when I realised that (probably) the same piano is sold under the name Hailun and another very similar piano (possibly the same design but with different action) I did fell a little cheated. It shook my faith in what I'd understood the relationship between W&L and Hailun to be, and made me think that the great, cheap piano I'd bought wasn't quite so special.
Maybe not “so special” anymore but still a great musical instrument and a great buy.

JohnEB wrote:
Quote
Now I've got over all that (after playing the piano, a lot) but I would still like to understand the relationship between W&L and Steigerman Premium to work out if they're really the same or not.
The story I have is this one.

Ningbo Hailun musical instruments used NOT to make complete pianos and where focusing solely on the production of piano parts for numerous famous piano names. Then came the meeting between M. Hailun Chen and the people from Wendl&Lung Vienna i.e. Peter Veletzky, Ernest Bittner, Lin Bai (whose uncle introduced M. Hailun Chen) and Sibin Zlatkovic. From that meeting, M. Chen decided to partneship with Wendl&Lung to build pianos for the first time. It was a mutual agreement.

After this, M. Chen had to invest a BIG amount of money to design and build the High Technology Machines needed to make the Wendl&Lung pianos. Following this pressure, M. Chen decided to market some Wendl&Lung pianos under his own name “Hailun piano”. Furthermore, M. Chen could not pass away the opportunity to “expand” his market with the Steigerman Premiums “orders”

All this might sound confusing for the end buyer but with time, this rather delicate and confusing situation will get “clarified”.

Turandot wrote:
Quote
Could you elaborate on the help that a distributor such as Steigerman would provide to a factory such as Hailun in bringing its products to market? I'm not trying to be cute with this question. I think it would be very enlightening to know. I think I understand the W&L connection to be more a piano design collaboration than a simple distribution channel. What is the Steigerman expertise that Hailun profits from?
Steigerman is definitely helping Hailun to sell more pianos. And you’re right that the collaboration between Hailun and Wendl&Lung is on an equal basis. It is the Wendl&Lung team that made possible the production of pianos by the Ningbo Hailun Musical Instrument Company. Like you, I would also like to know the Steigerman expertise in piano design. Did Steigerman designed their premium pianos?

But all this is out of topic of this tread. So people just make sure you try as much piano/make as possible before making your final decision. Remember to listen with you heart and soul, not with your head or mind.

#163011 - 03/01/07 06:52 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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Norbert Offline
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Mario:

You will very soon contacted by factory to make a retraction/correction of introducing yourself as a bona fide distributor of Wendl & Lung pianos within North America/Canada.

There a clear contracts written and signed to this effect and I am sorry if you have been led to believe otherwise.

Wendl&Lung Pianos, made also by Hailun, are to be distributed on the European continent only - they may have other features or elements of design of their own.

Dino is right now in China and will have this matter resolved as we speak.

I can't speak for Wendl & Lung, but the Steigerman Premium line of piano has primarily been designed by George F. Emerson, previous designer for the Mason Hamlin line of pianos.

Steigerman has extensively consulted with Mr.Emerson in the past and is consulting now in regards to some of the new models coming out in near future.

Certain upgraded and exclusive features of pianos built by Hailun are only available on Steigerman pianos, such as Renner hammers for example, a type of hammer we found quite crucial in tone enhancement on certain models.

Thank you for your enthusiasm for Hailun built pianos - you're right pointing them out to be among the very best built and best sounding Chinese pianos on the market today!

Norbert thumb


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642 www.eliteheritagepianos.ca Edmonton, Alta dealers for Estonia,
Brodmann 780-405-8908
#163012 - 03/02/07 12:32 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 379
Frank Offline
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I wonder what is really going to happen when Hailun US is in force. After all, they are the builders.
I have the contract...
no, I do..
My plate colour...
no, Mine...

Inquiring minds.. (sorry Jolly, your line)


Frank Woodside
www.hzmpiano.com


Frank Woodside
www.hzmpiano.com
#163013 - 03/02/07 01:45 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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Norbert Offline
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Frank:

You love this subject, don't you?

Do you really think it makes your line of Chinese built "Heintzman" pianos sell any better by stirring the pot each time this kind of discussion comes up?

Trying to create a sense of 'confusion' - when there clearly isn't any?

Insider tip:

"Have whoever builds,ownes,operates or distributes "Heintzman" pianos
- or is it also "Gerhard Heintzman" now? frown web page - build a better piano than Hailun presently does" - by *whatever* name.

Customers and piano shoppers will surely be able to take quickly note of that.....

Norbert shocked


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642 www.eliteheritagepianos.ca Edmonton, Alta dealers for Estonia,
Brodmann 780-405-8908
#163014 - 03/02/07 05:03 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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turandot Offline
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This is great!

from Wzkit
Quote
I played both the Hailun and Wendl & Lung side by side in the same showroom, and to the best of my ability, I could discern no noticeable difference in performance between the two. Apart from the name on the fallboard, both pianos were basically identical in touch and tone. Neither were the price differences significant.......The dealer in question was not in the States, but here in tiny Singapore.
from Norbert
Quote
Wendl&Lung Pianos, made also by Hailun, are to be distributed on the European continent only
(Apparently tiny Singapore has been annexed by Europe.)

**************

from Dino Flacca
Quote
In addition to the exclusivity on Renner hammers combined with the normal factory action, Steigerman also has an exclusive in the North American market on:.....
• “Bosendorfer Frame Color” for use in North America on both vertical and grand pianos.
from Mario Bruneau
Quote
So then no one can sell Bosendorfer in North America?
********************

from Steigerman Music website
Quote
So Steigerman has gone to great lengths to build an exceptionally responsive instrument. Hammers, action mechanism, soundboard and strings have all been carefully engineered to maximize performance, without compromising Steigerman's ongoing commitment to affordability.
from Dino Flacco
Quote
Steigerman paid the Renner Company in Germany a great deal of money to travel to Vienna, Austria to measure all three grands for action production....
I can’t speak for all of Wendl & Lung’s features but the initial scale and design of the pianos are the same. We were allowed to use pianos in their Austrian showroom for designing the Renner action models we produce.
*****************

from Tery Wilson
Quote
I spent a lot of time in the Hailun booth at NAMM, and I can tell you that this is a very impressive piano. I was able to meet Hailun C. as well as their management, and I think is definately a piano you will want to try out.
from Axtremus
Quote
There is no person named "Mr. Hailun" running the Hailun piano factory in Ningbo. (Dino can verify.)
****************

from Mario Bruneau
Quote
I am the distributer/retailer for Wendl&Lung in Québec - Eastern Canada. I am located near the US borders in Eastern Townships of Québec.......I Just came back from a master-training in voicing and piano prep at Wendl&Lung in Vienna. At Wendl&Lung they make sure with whom they deal with. They wont send pianos to plain businessman...
from Norbert
Quote
Mario:

You will very soon contacted by factory to make a retraction/correction of introducing yourself as a bona fide distributor of Wendl & Lung pianos within North America/Canada.

There a clear contracts written and signed to this effect and I am sorry if you have been led to believe otherwise.
******************

from Turandot
Quote
Wendl and Lung is involved in the design of some Hailun products. Their arrangement with Hailun seems to be in the nature of a partnership. Wendl and Lung Hailun products are marketed in Europe after passing through Vienna for a final quality control check. Wendl and Lung pianos are also offered in Japan, Singapore and other Asian countries. Presumably these pianos do not pass through Vienna. Wendl and Lung pianos are available in eastern Canada. Wendl and Lung pianos were shipped to Pianoforte in Chicago and available there a while ago, although possibly not now.
from Norbert
Quote

Wendl&Lung Pianos, made also by Hailun, are to be distributed on the European continent only ........

I don't think statements by a distributor of any one manufacturer make sense to be counter-checked for consistency by those made by others on different continents.
*****************

from Terry Wilson
Quote
I am happy to annouce that we will be introducing a new line of pianos made in the Hailun factory very soon that I think you will be interested in.
from Frank
Quote
I wonder what is really going to happen when Hailun US is in force. After all, they are the builders.
I have the contract...
no, I do..
My plate colour...
no, Mine...
and finally from Norbert
Quote
Frank: You love this subject, don't you?......Trying to create a sense of 'confusion' - when there clearly isn't any?
thumb


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
#163015 - 03/02/07 07:57 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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Turandot-the only agenda here not clear is yours.

#163016 - 03/02/07 08:56 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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#163017 - 03/02/07 01:33 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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Norbert Offline
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Turandot:

Can I ask you a personal question,

"Do you have a life?"

Norbert :rolleyes:


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642 www.eliteheritagepianos.ca Edmonton, Alta dealers for Estonia,
Brodmann 780-405-8908
#163018 - 03/02/07 02:16 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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Margaret M Offline
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Aw, come on, Norbert,

Which of us that hangs out on the forum obsessing about pianos has a life???? whome

Margaret


Margaret

Estonia L168-1754
#163019 - 03/02/07 03:22 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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Norbert Offline
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It's not a matter of 'obsessing about pianos' when pianos and companies are being discussed here for consumers to know exactly what's going on.

There are certain individuals here who clearly have a vested interest in spewing false information or controversies of sorts:

- tell me why someone relatively new here with few posts to boot, should suddenly be so interested to write long and multi-paragraph posts about distribution of Hailun made pianos in North America and Europe, their different territories,their individual specs, etc.

If such person is not satisfied with what a particular piano offers in terms of any of that - he simply doesn't have to buy it.

Is is not perhaps a little particular that tunadot, who claims to have long bought a different piano for himself - never telling *what* exactly, mind you - keeps digging in this subject here, being of little interest to the average consumer, while showing clear enjoyment and glee about a sense of controversy he has created here?

It's become my conviction - and it's quite evident if you read his various posts here - that the 'obesession' shown by certain people to write so extensively on a subject so far removed from their own actual life, - is simply done to create confusion and/or controversy about a competitor out there - plain and simple.

Hailun company,which is presently making a considerable impact on the market, becoming most likely one of the most important players of new pianos coming from China, will soon come to make a statement.

Warning: there will be a few red faces thereafter.....

End of 'obsession'

Norbert shocked


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642 www.eliteheritagepianos.ca Edmonton, Alta dealers for Estonia,
Brodmann 780-405-8908
#163020 - 03/02/07 03:42 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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Margaret M Offline
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Maryland
Norbert,

All that may be true, but Turandot is an ordinary piano buyer from California, not a dealer from Europe or Canada. I don't understand why you say *he* needs to get a life! He's just researching pianos (as the rest of us have tied to do), and pointing out rather clearly (in my view) all of the bizarre confusion a consumer is likely to face.

It's difficult to navigate in this market, and difficult to make a purchase & feel comfortable, especially if one doesn't have tens of thousands of dollars to buy a Tier 1 piano. Why the hositility to him? These flame wars are entertaining, but not all that constructive, I don't think, and at least his posts clearly show all of the conflicting claims and counterclaims. We in the buying public at least can see who's saying what & must make assessments as to who to believe. His posts help with that, I think, and he, like everyone else who posts, gives enough information that his stuff, too, can be assessed.

Margaret


Margaret

Estonia L168-1754
#163021 - 03/02/07 04:01 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
Joined: Jan 2007
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Margaret M Offline
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Maryland
I see you edited the part about Europe & Canada.

Turandot posted pix of his new piano & said what it was on a different thread a couple of days ago.

Pix of new piano

Perhaps the "obsession" comes for those of us who read the board for weeks or months, shopped at many dealers, and read much confusing information. Before I spent thousands of my hard-earned money on a piano, I did become obsessed, and I did have a bad experiences with a ("highly regarded") dealer in my area badmouthing other dealers and giving me clearly false information.

These flame wars just show me that it can happen to anyone laugh

The funny part is that as far as I can tell, you & turandot *agree* that Chinese pianos have arrived---

Margaret


Margaret

Estonia L168-1754
#163022 - 03/02/07 04:06 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 379
Frank Offline
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Posts: 379
Vancouver, B.C.
turandot not only told the forum what he purchased, he has posted pics of his new Nordiska 126.
He also seems to have researched to know exactly what he purchased.

Enjoy it turnadot.

Frank Woodside
www.hzmpiano.com


Frank Woodside
www.hzmpiano.com
#163023 - 03/02/07 04:29 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,683
FogVilleLad Offline
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And considering that Norbert had to disciplined, to eliminate his blatantly self promoting, thread highjacking infomercials, his questioning Turnadot's motive is not entirely devoid of humor.

#163024 - 03/02/07 08:46 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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torrance, CA
Hello Norbert

I will not respond to your personal comments. I don't take myself or my opinions seriously enough to get worked up about it. That said, I must admit that I take you and your opinions no more seriously than my own. I hope that's fair enough.

As to "glee" over creating a controversy, I did not create the controversy. Nor do I feel any glee about it. I have to admit that Frank's post about who would get which color, which contract etc. seemed hilarious to me. It conjured up an image in my mind of all the participants fighting over who would get the Queen Anne leg, who would get the Renner hammer, who would get the full Renner etc. But that was just a funny mental image, nothing more.

I think you know I have no agenda. I once sent you an E-mail asking for a point of information. I signed my real name. My E-mail address is also my name. I wasn't hiding then. I'm not now. I thought you sent me a cordial reply. In any case I didn't sense any hostility.

If you lived locally, I would offer to buy you a beer after work. It's a gorgeous day here in Southern California. I think a few minutes shared with 2 cold ones on a beautiful late afternoon would dispel your notions about my secret agenda. I think sometimes electronic communications in and of themselves give people a false picture of what another person is like. Maybe that's what's happened here.

Since you are too far away to make my offer meaningful, I will have one myself and offer a toast to you, Hailun, Steigerman, Wendl and Lung, Mr. Chen, Mr. Bruneau, Mr. Flacco, Mr. Wilson and everyone else in the little theater piece that has unfolded in this thread.

Here's to you, no hard feelings, and I will e-mail some pictures of my piano to you personally.

All the best


Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier
#163025 - 03/02/07 09:01 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
Joined: Jul 2001
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Norbert Offline
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T - appreciated, although I don't remember you mailing me.

I appreciate your reconciliatory tone - responding gladly in return! thumb

Things here get sometimes misunderstood when writing [or reading... wink ] -
- people who know me however, know that I am very sincere in my expressed opinions including the fact that I have personally worked very hard to get a certain edge with the pianos we have chose for our own, highly valued clientile.

Rest assured, starting from scratch in one of the most competitive regions anywhere - it's never been exactly a cake walk...

Selecting hopefully superior pianos in each and every price range on the market has become serious buisness for us and judging by the success we have had - including the many good reports about our chosen makes by people right here on the Forum - we couldn't have been too far off.

T - sorry about the piano you had indeed bought, I did miss it - my mistake - full apology offered! frown

FogVilleLad said:

Quote
And considering that Norbert had to disciplined, to eliminate his blatantly self promoting, thread highjacking infomercials, his questioning Turnadot's motive is not entirely devoid of humor.
I leave the writer of this rather ridiculous statement in his innocent belief if that's what gives him comfort in life or makes him feel any better.

Hailun pianos, be they of the Wendl&Lung [Europe] or Steigerman Premium [North America] variety - including any of the other makes we happen to represent - don't need 'Norbert'.

They'll all be perfectly able to stand on their own.

Norbert shocked


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642 www.eliteheritagepianos.ca Edmonton, Alta dealers for Estonia,
Brodmann 780-405-8908
#163026 - 02/18/09 02:52 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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Quote
Originally posted by schwammerl:
Really is there no Mr Hailun?

Then Wendl & Lung must be lieing when showing pictures of Mr Chen Hailun ( click Wendl & Lung History - 1990:4th picture form right): http://www.wendl-lung.com/Website/English/fs_wendllung.htm

Or the Swiss W&L distrubutor must then be wrong also (3rd and 4th picture): http://www.scanavini.ch/galerie.htm

schwammerl.
There is no Mr. Hailun. Hai Lun is his given name.

His family name is Chen. There is a Mr. Chen.

In Western terms he might be "Mr. Hai Lun Chen".

In China he is "Chen Hai Lun" or "Chen Xian Sheng (= Mr.).

Got it?

#163027 - 02/18/09 03:44 AM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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swampwiz Offline
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Louisiana, USA
Quote
Originally posted by Norbert:

The Stei 123 upright, a piano which actually sounds better than many 52" uprights I have ever played before, has become a great success for us.

As a result of its truly amazing tonal volume and richness of sound - and with the new Stei 125 just coming onto market - we have discontinued to offer anymore any grands under minimal size of 5'2".

Norbert
Not even the Brodmann CE 148? help

#163028 - 02/18/09 08:14 PM Re: Hailun, anyone?  
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Norbert Offline
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The top uprights we have been seeing in recent times are the 50" Hailun H5 and the 49" Brodmann 123M.

The latter was just purchase by a local peformance venue whose pleayers were taken by its even and resonnant tone.

Intererstingly enough, none of them had either heard the name or played one before....

The Hailun H5' are being picked by anybody from the Lang Langs to the Jerry Lewises.

Or all those with aspirations becoming one...

Norbert wink


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642 www.eliteheritagepianos.ca Edmonton, Alta dealers for Estonia,
Brodmann 780-405-8908
#1209007 - 05/31/09 01:40 AM Re: Hailun, anyone? [Re: Norbert]  
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singapore
Is it advisable to buy a Hailun upright? (125 cm)

I'm so confused. Especially about the durability of one... Is it true that a Hailun is really that good?

I'm new to playing the piano and can't really tell the difference in the sounds..


i'm always asking stupid questions
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