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Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1626471 02/23/11 07:51 AM
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Last edited by Unequally tempered; 02/23/11 08:11 AM.

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Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1626560 02/23/11 11:09 AM
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I didn't know that the rollingball site had added mp3's of chords played in the temperaments. Thanks, David.

EDIT: I see now that only a few temperaments have been given this treatment, and that an electronic keyboard was used. Alas...

Last edited by Jake Jackson; 02/24/11 11:25 AM.
Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1627595 02/24/11 07:39 PM
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Following the motif in this thread regarding the way in which Good Temperaments assist the performer in creating a sensitive interpretation of a given piece, adding color intended by the composer and such...

...I recorded this Chopin Prelude today (Op. 28, No. 20, Largo). What you tuners out there call "beats," well, I noticed many of the chords in this prelude resulted in a nice slow "wah-wah-wah-wah" pulse, so I set the tempo based on this pulse at 4 wahs per chord.

This is a 1940 Lester spinet recently tuned by Bill Bremmer to the Equal Beating Victorian Temperament III. Please see if you can tell what I mean about setting the tempo based on the pulse of the beats. smile

Chopin Prelude Op. 28 No. 20



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Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Cinnamonbear #1627643 02/24/11 10:02 PM
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I am sorry Cinnamonbear, but to me the performers interpretation and the tone of the instrument is far more important than the temperament. In fact, I am insensitive to any concept of key color and I prefer the least amount of beating possible across the entire piano averages out across all possible keys (i.e. ET). I do not get anywhere near appreciating how the piano's beats match the tempo because the tone, i.e. timbre, of the Lester spinet in the Chopin Prelude dominates. In the original thread, the pianist's beautiful interpretation and the gorgeous tone of the old Bechstein is what I appreciate.


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Cinnamonbear #1627659 02/24/11 10:46 PM
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Cinnamonbear, this sounds perfect. The piano has a nice character. It doesn't sound like a concert grand, it has it's own unique voice. I understand you love this piano.

Kees

Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
DoelKees #1627667 02/24/11 11:09 PM
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Poster: DoelKees
Subject: Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp

Cinnamonbear, this sounds perfect. The piano has a nice character. It doesn't sound like a concert grand, it has it's own unique voice. I understand you love this piano.


Yes, I agree about the character of this piano. I am also impressed by the dynamic range and the evenness of the chord playing in the soft sections.


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Chris Leslie #1627792 02/25/11 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
I am sorry Cinnamonbear, but to me the performers interpretation and the tone of the instrument is far more important than the temperament. In fact, I am insensitive to any concept of key color and I prefer the least amount of beating possible across the entire piano averages out across all possible keys (i.e. ET). I do not get anywhere near appreciating how the piano's beats match the tempo because the tone, i.e. timbre, of the Lester spinet in the Chopin Prelude dominates. In the original thread, the pianist's beautiful interpretation and the gorgeous tone of the old Bechstein is what I appreciate.


Ah, Chris! I agree with you about the importance of interpretation as well as to the beauty of the Bechstein and the wonderful interpretations played on it! laugh

My point in posting the Chopin prelude above was to contribute to the discussion what I have learned from playing in an un-equal temperament...that is, that it affords the performer clues about how to shape an interpretation. I know my phrasing was rather flat in this one, but my demonstration was meant to point to tempo, and the clue that I derived from the pulse of beats given the chords of the composition itself.

Thanks for listening!
--Andy

P.S. Thank you, Kees, for your kind comments. grin


I may not be fast,
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Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1627852 02/25/11 10:22 AM
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Dear Chris (Leslie)

I'm intrigued that you say that you're not aware of the temperament. I suspect that most of our audiences at our concerts aren't either, although a singing teacher refuses to come to our concerts on account of the piano being "out of tune". However, whether or not one hears the temperament there is a depth of emotion and an added interest arising from the subtle shape-shifting of chord sizes between keys. This may be apparent in the unequal-equal temperament recording of the Chopin 2nd sonata.

Your comment that you're not aware of the temperament is most encouraging as it demonstrates to all of us brought up to equal temperament possibly how far one can go in shifting to the limits of unequalising temperament, and arguably to good musical effect worthy of experimentation.

Whilst closing down more windows on my overloaded computer,
http://www.sequenza21.com/lauten/2009/09/what-kind-of-tuning-did-bach-really-use/
http://harps.braybaroque.ie/
http://temper.braybaroque.ie/
http://temper.braybaroque.ie/spread.htm (in which I note our David Pitches Krebs in F sharp is quoted)
http://photo.fortepiano.eu/fortepiano.eu_gallery/
http://organ-au-logis.pagesperso-orange.fr/Pages/Abecedaire/Vacances/Grignan.htm
may be of interest.

In our sound archive I have a recording of violin and pipe organ in equal temperament of the famous Albinoni adagio. It uses significant chord shifts in the accompaniment which are, with my experience of unequal temperaments, rendered flat by the temperament. I will try to put this on YouTube before long and encourage a performer to play it with an instrument in meantone or a Good Temperament, to hear the contrast.

Andy - I hope that when Bill next comes to you that you will ask him to dare to use a stronger temperament as I think you'll enjoy it.

Finally, Chris, you're very tuned in to be remarking on the evenness of chord playing in soft sections - whether it be a joke or a comment based on truth, it is said that Adolfo Barabino is known for exploiting ten levels of expression between p and mp . . .

Best wishes

David P



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http://hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/tuning-seminar.pdf
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Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1627866 02/25/11 11:02 AM
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Andy - You may be overdriving the piano in that first section. Every instrument has a unique dynamic range - the limits of loud to soft that it can play and still maintain its tone.

I think if you experiment, especially in the bass, with playing with a little less power, the tone will hold together better and the music will sound even better.

That is one of the clear advantages of a larger instrument - the string scale/soundboard/action/hammer combination allows for a wider dynamic range while still keeping the sound of the piano true to itself.

It is up to the performer to adjust to each instrument - to push the limits of the piano without venturing beyond, except for special effect. (Sadly, there's a lot of "banging" that gets taught and accepted as appropriate technique.)

Try it, I think you'll like it!

Ron Koval

Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1628417 02/26/11 11:03 AM
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Hi!

I have just finished tuning a modern Yamaha C3. Compared to the instruments I'm used to the tone is so dull, with predominant fundamental note and not brilliant harmonics, that simply running up the keyboard in 3rds and 5ths it would not strike you as not being in equal temperament . . . until . . .

What is really interesting is that whilst on superficial hearing the temperament is benign, the contrasts between chords are as striking as "usual".

It goes to show that the efforts that equal temperament piano tuners have gone to to ensure intruments are in perfect ET, is both wasted and musically wasteful. I suspect that in the past Equal Temperament may have referred to Good Temperament in contrast to Meantone. I suspect that when "Equal" started to be taken literally, then achieving it became an academic exercise and a matter of great prowess . . . and the colours of music in which some keys were more equal than others were lost.

The reason for this apparently absurd assertion is the Helmoltz quotation
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o6YSpMn-h3UC&pg=PA548&lpg=PA548&dq=St.+Jacobi,+Hamburg+organ+temperament&source=bl&ots=55mxxxW9Jn&sig=hD4xxlgBnCnVl125tsnmzLCfwTs&hl=en&ei=4fpnTYzoDIuEhQfguPChDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=St.%20Jacobi%2C%20Hamburg%20organ%20temperament&f=false that a significant Hamburg organ was tuned to "equal temperament" and claims that Werkmeister could only recommend "equal temperament" . . .

It looks as though we are seeing the beginnings of the Good Temperament confusion as http://mypipeorganhobby.blogspot.com/2008/12/st-jacobi-kirche-hamburg.html gives:

Quote
Tuning: Upon the restoration in 1993, a tuning system was chosen which stays close to the historic original, but still allows for a broad band of music to be played. It is a modified-moderate tuning of the type 1/5 syntonic comma. This system offers a relative purity of thirds in the basic keys. In the peripheral keys F-sharp major and C sharp major, some hard contrasts have to be put up with.


The bottom line is that tuners can go on right ahead and tune modern pianos to Werkmeister family temperaments . . .

Best wishes

David P


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- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
http://hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/tuning-seminar.pdf
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Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1629577 02/27/11 10:28 PM
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Hi!

The proof of the pudding is in the eating . . .

Arvo Part:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7v5jYkw13w

Who said that unequal temperament was unsuitable for 20th century music?

Bach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs7wDeDSQiI

Beethoven
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiX5Xjtb7-E

Chopin nocturne:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFHivVjAmBA

Chopin Study in A flat !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhNf3zRd5cs

Chopin 2nd sonata 1st movement
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7k3Vck-XZ8

Chopin 2nd Sonata Scherzo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaYEmQgY_xU

Chopin 2nd Sonata 3rd & 4th movement extracts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8in_RJYbjGM

Tuning the bass strings was interesting here. In Equal temperament one simply goes for something that sounds "nice" with the octaves and the tenths . . . However, here I looked for the harmonic 2 octaves up in the tenor C to middle C region and then the third interval for F, C and G strings in the middle C to treble C octave and the fifth interval for most of the other notes, ensuring a correspondence whilst ensuring the unison in the tenor C octave sounded nice. Doing this reinforces the key colour of the temperament.

After auditioning this tuning someone mentioned that they thought the bass octave was tuned flat - some pianists are said to like the bottom octave tuned flat, but in this case of course it's on account of the harmonic tuning to the sharp inharmonicity of the strings, causing the fundamental note to sound flat.

I used the top octave inharmonicity stretch provided by my 1980s tuning machine rather than simply applying my standard empirical stretches, and I'm note sure that the top octave is stretched enough.

Anyway, I hope from this that people with modern pianos will be adventurous in applying the _audible_ historic temperaments as I believe the key contrasts and chord shape shifting that perhaps you might be able to hear adds so very much to the dimension of the music.

Best wishes

David P

Last edited by Unequally tempered; 02/28/11 07:05 AM.

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- http://www.organmatters.com -
http://hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/tuning-seminar.pdf
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Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1632371 03/03/11 12:03 PM
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Hi!

A friend has just asked me about Liszt on unequal temperament and Venezia e Napoli . . . and it happened that I remembered a fine pianist playing it here:

http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/jong-gyung-park-unequal-temperament/liszt.mp3

Best wishes

David P


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- http://www.organmatters.com -
http://hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/tuning-seminar.pdf
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Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1636291 03/08/11 04:37 AM
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These all sound very good, David. The Yamaha came out well with this tuning. (I suspect that both the temperament and your tuning contribute to the good sound.)

Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1637175 03/09/11 07:57 AM
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Dear Jake

Glad you liked the Yamaha recordings. I was completely blown away by the beauty achieved.

Over the past weekend I've been distracted by organ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPqoorLguj0 in equal temperament and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHOcCLvUeH4 in meantone. The Fugue doesn't work and possibly lends credence to the theory that the piece, or possibly one part or other was not by Bach! It's in this way that temperament can show musicological light on composers . . . !

Best wishes

David P


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Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1637966 03/10/11 05:16 AM
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Alas, I'm afraid we'll lose you if you venture too far into the forest of organs. Much to be said for air pumping through big brass tubes, but there's something about felt hitting a set of strings...

Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1637980 03/10/11 06:45 AM
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Dear Jake

Sorry for that - the organ experiments demonstrate the way in which temperament experiments can be an x-ray into the music. In this particular case, the contrast in agreement with Meantone between the Toccata and the Fugue contrasts with the Dorian Toccata and Fugue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Uj9MORwoF0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbwXpBcGm6Y The way these reacted was interestingly different.

These results can't be predicted: they have to be tried - so I hope that they will encourage more to start experimenting with pianos and the piano repertoire - and post the results.

There may be another recital soon by Miena Senada on the Yamaha which I may or may not be able to get to or record - Schubert - 4 impromptus op 142, Liszt - Schubert Staendchen von Shakespeare Barcarola op 72, Chopin Scherzo 4 and Ballade 4. Sunday, 20 March, 11.30am, The Christian Community, Hartfield Road, Forest Row, Sussex, RH18 5DZ

Best wishes

David P


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- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
http://hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/tuning-seminar.pdf
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Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Unequally tempered #1638082 03/10/11 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Unequally tempered
Hi!


After auditioning this tuning someone mentioned that they thought the bass octave was tuned flat - some pianists are said to like the bottom octave tuned flat, but in this case of course it's on account of the harmonic tuning to the sharp inharmonicity of the strings, causing the fundamental note to sound flat.

David P


Interesting comment. During Patrick's tuning exam, he got a point off on the note C1 for being flat and I concurred as an examiner that it was not in line with other notes, so it had to stand as an error. I noted however, that it was not a "bad" sound in itself and had it been the same as several notes above it, it could have been found to be acceptable.

A few day's later, we were at Grandpianoman's house where I re-tuned his Mason & Hamlin RBB. When I reached the low Bass, I called Patrick over to collaborate with me on the low Bass, which I sometimes like to tune extra low because it can give the piano a "bigger" sound.

Not long after that, I was tuning a smaller Kawai grand aurally in a pianist's condominium. As I tuned, he seemed oblivious to what I was doing as he sat typing on his laptop computer. What I was doing with the Bass seemed to catch his his attention as he looked up with a puzzled looking frown on his face. "Do you not like that?" I asked, "Not particularly", he replied.

I explained that the very Low Bass and the High Treble can be subjective. Each can be matched with either the inharmonicity from nearby octaves or those more toward the center; each with different effects. I explained that I chose to match the Low Bass with the central octaves to give the smaller piano a "bigger" sound. "Oh, I certainly don't need that in this small space!", he replied.

It is only an illusion and I thought he would enjoy the illusion of adding a foot to his smaller Kawai RX-3 grand but I quickly said I could change it and did. Instead, I did what I most often do and that is to match the "resonance" (which is actually rapid beats between partials beyond the 8th) with the rapidly beating intervals which had been created in the central octaves. He preferred that result.

Here is a short track of Patrick improvising the melody from Dvorak's New World Symphony, commonly known as the "Going Home" melody. I love how the extra stretch in the Low Bass gives the 7 foot piano the illusion of a 9 foot. It is interesting to note that Grandpianoman recently had it tuned by a local concert technician of very esteemed reputation who raised the Low Bass considerably from where it had been.

http://www.box.net/shared/on0hs9rhcv


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Bill Bremmer RPT #1638134 03/10/11 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
... I did what I most often do and that is to match the "resonance" (which is actually rapid beats between partials beyond the 8th) with the rapidly beating intervals which had been created in the central octaves. He preferred that result.


Bill,

Can you expand on this subject, here or in another thread, since we may be moving off the subject of the pre-ET temperaments and the videos? To what extent can one make these resonances more consonant while keeping the consonance with the octaves above and below, and with other intervals?

Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1638558 03/11/11 02:35 AM
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Jake,

Please read the entire article but the answer to your question is in th esecond to last paragraph here:

http://www.billbremmer.com/articles/aural_octave_tuning.pdf


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Bill Bremmer RPT #1638698 03/11/11 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
Jake,

Please read the entire article but the answer to your question is in th esecond to last paragraph here:

http://www.billbremmer.com/articles/aural_octave_tuning.pdf


Thanks. I thought that I had read most of your articles. I apparently missed one.

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