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High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
#1628947 02/27/11 02:51 AM
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Two weeks pass by since my initial Bosendorfer 200CS post. Many things happened and I decided to stick with my original budget trying to find a good grand piano at 30k or so price range. The more I look and research, the harder for me to make a decision. I'd be very appreciated if you could share with me your experience and wisdom!

Let me continue from where I left off on the first post. The next weekend from I first saw the Bosendorfer, I took my 7 y/o daughter with me to play the piano. She played on a Yamaha C3, Schimmel K190, the $54000 Bosendorfer 200CS and another Bosendorfer 200(180 anniversary edition, 2008 model, offered at a similar price to the 200CS). She didn't like the Yamaha and Schimmel at all. She liked the Bosendorfer 200 more than 200CS because of the shiny outlook. However, I felt the sound of the 200CS is much better than the 200 anniversary edition.
Just when we were about to leave because we couldn't come to an agreement on which one to go with, I saw a used August Forster that was ruled out by me and asked her to play it. It turned out we both liked it! The bass sounded wonderful and she could play ppp to ff very well on it. However, the store is not an August Forster dealer and I feel the asking price is too high, so I didn't buy it at that time. Instead, I did quite a bit of research during the past week and found more choices. They are:

1. The year 2000 Forster 190, $35000 at a store. Pros; This piano is in like new condition, rarely played by the first owner. As described above, its bass is very resonant and the action is very controllable. Pros: It's a consignment and the owner doesn't want to go down further. The dealer is pushing! He asked me to make a refundable deposit on it one week ago, but today he told me I had to make a decision very quick otherwise he'll call the other customers who are interested in this piano.

2. A 25 years old August Forster 190, $22000 by private seller. The bass section is not as resonant and clean as the the 10 years old Forster. The hammers have been replaced with Able hammers. Pros: least expensive among the three Forster 190; new hammers. Cons: the oldest among the three, no warranty, no free tuning after purchase, potential of repair cost in the following years? Is this a good price with a Forster at this age?

3. A 2008 August Forster 190, $38000. This is actually sold by a local Forster dealer. However, the dealer is not actively doing business so this is the only 190 available. Pros: 10 years warranty, newest among the three Forster. Cons: The bass and middle area sound funny (due to lack of preparation in the past 2-3 years? or just because this is not a good Forster?), no other same models for me to compare the tone, worry about the dealer will go out of business soon and the warranty service will be problematic, the price is at the upper end of my budget. At this price, should I consider other brands with better value?

4. New Yamaha C3, $28,000. This is an Ok piano to us. It doesn't sound particularly good, but the touch and action are acceptable. It fits our budget quite well and certainly is an average piano for my daughter to develop needed technique for now.

5. A 1925 Steinway M, $20000, new Strings and most action parts, refinished case. The sound is not bad but still sounds like an old piano. Old ivory key. Pros: seems a good price, fit into my budget, and it's a Steinway. Cons: It's kept in a public storage without climate control, no warranty, no free tuning, need a technician to inspect.

6. Just found many restored Steinway O and M on the internet at $24,000-25,500. Pros: Fit into my budget, it's a Steinway. Cons: can't play the piano in person. If this is a good option, could anyone recommend the websites of reputable restorers or dealers?

Overall, August Forster seemed to be a piano we like. However, my concern would be there's not an active local dealer in my area. I'm worried the warranty issue and the eventually resale issue if I buy it from the inactive authorized dealer. Secondly, when considering spending 35,000 or 38,000 for the about first and the third choices, what would be the other brands and pianos I need to consider? Are these Forsters the best pianos I could get at this price?

I wish I live in an area that has more dealers and pianos to select from. In my area, there's only this dealer whose store is at a comparable scale as many of the east coast dealers on this forum. The other dealer is not as "used car dealer" like and is the only dealer that I like, but they only have 6-7 not too new grands in display. Besides that, there's this big Steinway exclusive dealer that carry mostly expensive and non-negotiable new Steinway.

Therefore, I feel my piano shopping is almost stuck at this point unless I move to the other big cities...

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Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
Samay #1628985 02/27/11 04:36 AM
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if i were in your shoes i would look most seriously at the newest of the Forsters.
One of the pros you list for Steinway is the fact that "it's a Steinway". I would personally forget about this rational as I has nothing to do with whether or not you are happy with how the piano plays and sounds. I've played plenty of Steinways where I was quite disappointed and exclaimed "it's a Steinway?!?"
If you reread your post you'll see that your own opinions are quite clear on which ones you like and which ones you don't like. Follow your own instincts. With your budget you shouldn't settle for a piano that's anything less that a dream come true for you.
Take your time, and if you can afford it travel to those other cities and try other pianos. When I was shopping for my grand a couple of years back I stayed strongly committed to the notion that at some point I would encounter a piano that I just knew was the one for me. And it DID happen that way. And i have absolutely no regrets about my decision.
Good luck. I really hope you find a piano that excites and inspires you.

p.s. I just reread your post before clicking 'submit' and sorry if my reply doesn't directly address most of what you are asking for input on smile



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Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
Samay #1629049 02/27/11 08:26 AM
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Enjoy the ride! For once it is over, then it is over...

Forster grands are nice but make sure it sounds nice before ANY money is plucked down. And what is it with returnable deposits? Isn't a deposit a good faith money down, so why should it ever be returnable? or else it just plain isn't needed! Let him call others. He would have already done so if others were waiting in the wing. Doesn't mean that they are going to buy it.

Without going back to your other thread. What about MH? Certainly a new one could be had for $38,000!

And

"Therefore, I feel my piano shopping is almost stuck at this point unless I move to the other big cities..."

No need to move - just visit!



"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."
Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
Samay #1629097 02/27/11 10:32 AM
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The "returnable deposit" is just pressure selling. Never fall for it. The "I will call the other buyers" line would just make me laugh. And knock $5,000 off my offer.

Seriously. Your daughter is only 7. You don't need to be in a rush here. Take your time and try some different pianos. Eventually you will discover a trustworthy dealer or private seller with a piano you like.


Currently playing 2017 C212 with carbon fibre soundboard, WNG action. Working on Bach, Beethoven, Grieg mainly.
Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
Samay #1629103 02/27/11 10:55 AM
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Based on what little I have read, the piano is for your 7 year old daughter. Unless you have money to burn or you plan on playing as well, I would suggest you consider resale value on par with other features. You don't want to take a bath if she decides at 8 or 9 that she is no longer interested.


Michael

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He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'
Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
Samay #1629135 02/27/11 11:53 AM
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A Bosendorfer for a 7 year old? Surely the dealers around here smell the fresh meat.

Grand pianos are for concert halls, not for ordinary people. They are too loud for the ordinary home, too big and hard to move and too expensive.

There are only a few reasons to buy a grand piano.

1. You have so much money, you don't know what to do with it.

2. You are looking for an ornamental status symbol for your front room with the cathedral ceiling.

3. You are so enamored with your own child you imagine they are concert pianists already.

If you want to go nuts, you could buy a new Yamaha U1 upright for 10k MSRP. They will probably let it go for 7k. If your daughter ever gets to the level where it makes a difference, a one in a million chance, she can still use the U1 as a practice instrument. A used U1 for a few thousand would also be more than adequate.


Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
TheSockPuppet #1629243 02/27/11 02:21 PM
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That's really sad! Of course, if you have the means and the space, the grand is more desirable than an upright. The upright is the "make do" fall back instrument, not the instrument of choice for any serious student.

Samay, the Forster is a fine instrument, and if it's not broke now, it's very unlikely to need warranty work later. FYI, the list price in Germany for a new 190 is €30,200. Subtracting taxes for export and figuring currency exchange and shipping, a new one in the USA should be around $36,000. You've got to give the dealer some margin, but on a 10 year old model, you should offer $18 - 20K and negotiate from there.

Just my opinion, of course!


"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
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Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
Samay #1629270 02/27/11 02:57 PM
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If a piano carries a manufacturer's warranty and there is no local dealer, there is still little cause for concern. In those instances the manufacturer will hire a local RPT to do the warranty work.

This is quite common.


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Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
AJB #1629310 02/27/11 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by AJB
The "returnable deposit" is just pressure selling. Never fall for it. The "I will call the other buyers" line would just make me laugh. And knock $5,000 off my offer.
Refundable deposits were discussed at length in another thread.

Some dealers require them to hold a piano for a specific amount of time and others dealers do not or will not hold pianos at all. Their main advantage for a buyer is to get the right of first refusal on a new/used/rebuilt piano in the showroom, a piano that is being ordered, or a piano that is in the process of being rebuilt. Dealers may get something out of it because buyers are psychologically more inclined to buy pianos they have put a deposit on.

IMO it's not necesarily pressure selling. In fact, by understanding that mnay buyers cannot decide so quickly on such a major purchase and by giving the buyer more time to decide, I think it can be considered the opposite of pressure selling.

Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
Samay #1629388 02/27/11 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Samay

1. The year 2000 Forster 190, $35000 at a store. Pros; This piano is in like new condition, rarely played by the first owner. As described above, its bass is very resonant and the action is very controllable. Pros: It's a consignment and the owner doesn't want to go down further. The dealer is pushing! He asked me to make a refundable deposit on it one week ago, but today he told me I had to make a decision very quick otherwise he'll call the other customers who are interested in this piano.



Hi Samay:

Don't let the dealer bully you in to making a quick decision. If you liked the piano, and I think Foersters are wonderful instruments, you might tell the dealer that you are interested and want to have a technician examine the piano. You should hire an independent RPT technician to go and examine the piano for you. I would HIGHLY recommend that you be present when the technician goes to the store to do the examination. Then, if he/she gives the piano a thumbs up, make an offer.

In my experience, clients put a piano on consignment with a dealer usually because they tried to sell the instrument directly and were unsuccessful, usually because of an unrealistic price, so they give it to a dealer. It is the dealer's job to present ANY offer received so that the owner makes the ultimate decision about selling price.

I think your idea of taking a trip to try other instruments is a good one. You seem to like the European approach to sound, but you haven't mentioned trying pianos like W. Hoffman, Bechstein Academy, Estonia, Haessler etc. even though the budget you are working with is sufficient to find many good pianos from these and other manufacturers. You can easily make a fun venture out of it, one that you and your family will remember every time you look at your new instrument. Often, dealers in major markets will gladly assist in getting concert tickets if they have a relationship with the local Symphony, so you can try pianos during the day and relax listening to them in the evening!

Last edited by master88er; 02/27/11 05:18 PM.

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Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
master88er #1629421 02/27/11 06:14 PM
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I missed the "consignment" part about the Forster. The owner is free to ask any price he chooses, and you're free to make any offer you choose. Just in case you think my German price is off the mark, here is one of many listings you can find if you do a search.


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Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
pianoloverus #1629431 02/27/11 06:25 PM
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Pianoloverus

Rarely do you agree with anything I say, so I shall not prolong debate on the subject. So I will just say this, not for you but for the OP:

1 If you are not sure enough to do the deal, you are not sure enough to hand a deposit over.
2 if you part with cash and change your mind, getting your money back can be a challenge
3 99% of dealers who claim to have other buyers waiting are lying 99% of the time, plus or minus 1% (usually plus).
4 Returnable deposits of more than $1 are never an advantage for the buyer. But feel free to agree with Pianoloverus. It's not my money so I don't give a damn really ;-)





Last edited by AJB; 02/27/11 06:30 PM.

Currently playing 2017 C212 with carbon fibre soundboard, WNG action. Working on Bach, Beethoven, Grieg mainly.
Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
pianoloverus #1629442 02/27/11 06:38 PM
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Refundable deposits were discussed at length in another thread.

Some dealers require them to hold a piano for a specific amount of time and others dealers do not or will not hold pianos at all. Their main advantage for a buyer is to get the right of first refusal on a new/used/rebuilt piano in the showroom, a piano that is being ordered, or a piano that is in the process of being rebuilt. Dealers may get something out of it because buyers are psychologically more inclined to buy pianos they have put a deposit on.

IMO it's not necesarily pressure selling. In fact, by understanding that mnay buyers cannot decide so quickly on such a major purchase and by giving the buyer more time to decide, I think it can be considered the opposite of pressure selling. [/quote]

That's the way I see it.


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Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
Samay #1629464 02/27/11 07:13 PM
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Of course you do. You are a piano dealer.

I am a lawyer originally. (Not now). I see "returnable deposits" as being a confused approach to both the law of contract and commercial negotiation. All they do is make muddy waters muddier.

If the deposit is returnable if the buyer changes his or her mind, what security does the deposit provide. None. It only provides security if the dealer thinks he has the ability to dispute the return. Ad then the problems start.

It is a naive transactional basis IMO and fraught with danger, mostly for the buyer. We remain, very firmly, in a buyer's market with an absolute glut of pianos and (generalising) loss making, cash strapped dealers desperate to generate cash flow. Pianos are effectively commodities with supply >>> than demand. So there is no need to place a deposit on one, because another one will be along real soon.

Buyers may get suckered into sales tactics that preach the opposite. Luckily Piano World is here to provide a little balance ;-).

Since these are self evident facts to me, I shall let readers make up their own minds and argue the point no longer, as I do not have a horse in this race.


Currently playing 2017 C212 with carbon fibre soundboard, WNG action. Working on Bach, Beethoven, Grieg mainly.
Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
AJB #1629467 02/27/11 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by AJB
Pianoloverus

Rarely do you agree with anything I say, so I shall not prolong debate on the subject. So I will just say this, not for you but for the OP:

1 If you are not sure enough to do the deal, you are not sure enough to hand a deposit over.
2 if you part with cash and change your mind, getting your money back can be a challenge
3 99% of dealers who claim to have other buyers waiting are lying 99% of the time, plus or minus 1% (usually plus).
4 Returnable deposits of more than $1 are never an advantage for the buyer. But feel free to agree with Pianoloverus. It's not my money so I don't give a damn really ;-)


In response to your points:
1. The whole point of a refundable deposit is that you don't have to be sure you're going to do the deal(either because of the piano or its price) but you still have first right of refusal.

2. Not if you sign a contract and the dealer is honest. You should have a written contract unless you trust the dealer implicitly.

3. Certainly some dealers will say there is another interested buyer. But if the dealer is honest and has another interested buyer, the buyer who has given a refundable deposit will still have first right of refusal for some agreed upon time period.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 02/27/11 07:36 PM.
Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
Samay #1629468 02/27/11 07:20 PM
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Quote
4. New Yamaha C3, $28,000. This is an Ok piano to us. It doesn't sound particularly good, but the touch and action are acceptable. It fits our budget quite well and certainly is an average piano for my daughter to develop needed technique for now.


frown

For 98% of the world's piano students, a Yamaha C3 is an instrument that can carry them from Mozart K545 into their conservatory applications. [That percentage could be wrong ...... it could be 100% smile ].

There is nothing wrong with buying a "better" piano than the C3, but a good Yamaha C3 is nothing to sneer at. We don't really know anything about this particular piano. It may have been a dud. But it's hard to imagine a seven year old whose sensibilities would be offended by a well prepped and maintained Yamaha.

Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
AJB #1629473 02/27/11 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by AJB
Of course you do. You are a piano dealer.

I am a lawyer originally. (Not now). I see "returnable deposits" as being a confused approach to both the law of contract and commercial negotiation. All they do is make muddy waters muddier.

If the deposit is returnable if the buyer changes his or her mind, what security does the deposit provide. None. It only provides security if the dealer thinks he has the ability to dispute the return. Ad then the problems start.

It is a naive transactional basis IMO and fraught with danger, mostly for the buyer. We remain, very firmly, in a buyer's market with an absolute glut of pianos and (generalising) loss making, cash strapped dealers desperate to generate cash flow. Pianos are effectively commodities with supply >>> than demand. So there is no need to place a deposit on one, because another one will be along real soon.

Buyers may get suckered into sales tactics that preach the opposite. Luckily Piano World is here to provide a little balance ;-).

Since these are self evident facts to me, I shall let readers make up their own minds and argue the point no longer, as I do not have a horse in this race.


[Linked Image]

That sums up my view as well.

Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
Samay #1629496 02/27/11 08:21 PM
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Keep playing as many pianos as you can.

The 'right' one will surely come along in time....

Norbert smile


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Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
John v.d.Brook #1629549 02/27/11 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by John v.d.Brook
...Just in case you think my German price is off the mark....


Did you say that on purpose?


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Re: High end grand piano -- Don't know which one to choose.
Samay #1629555 02/27/11 09:56 PM
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I suspect he was being very Franc with you.

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