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Re: Bach Inventions Thread
bluekeys #1622939 02/18/11 01:29 PM
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Jazzwee - good point on the arm motion. I like the fact that it forces you to think about each note as you align the arm. Obviously not something you want to do at speed, but it adds a great new dimension to slow play.

I thought about putting up a new #2 today, but we have temps in the 70's for the first time in months today, so I'm going to go enjoy some of that instead!

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Re: Bach Inventions Thread
bluekeys #1625308 02/21/11 04:10 PM
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bluekeys, thanks for starting this thread, and I very much enjoyed your No. 1.

I just started on No 1 and I find these quite difficult. In the edition I have the tempo is marked Allegro (1/4=96). That's a pretty good clip. Something that's helping me work up to that is setting the metronome at 4/8 so the beats are every 1/8 note. When I get the section I'm working up to the tempo I'm trying to achieve, then I set the metronome back to 4/4 and make sure I'm on the beat at 1. Then I try and listen to what I'm playing on 2, 3 and 4. I find it very challenging. To me this is a very good rhythmic study (a point not mentioned in the pianostreet article, afaik).

I see where No 8 is listed in the easy section. But my edition has a tempo marking of Vivace (1/4=126). That's a pretty steep mountain - not sure I can climb that high.

keyboardklutz said
Quote
What Landorrano is saying is that you need some more subtle shading (I had to listen to my version to remember http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7B73aWaV3k ). Bach often starts a motif not on the beat. If you do a slight emphasis on the second 16th of each group of 4 it'll be more musical. On the harpsichord (though indubitably this was written for clavichord) you'd separate a little.
. Good point k. In my edition the phrases are marked out that way.

tf

Re: Bach Inventions Thread
time flies #1625332 02/21/11 04:38 PM
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I've lately been trying learning pieces out of the yamaha '50 Greats For the piano' book that comes with some yamaha digital pianos...and of course the music is also on the pianos themselves (even the p155 although they don't give you the book with that model i had to snag one off of ebay) Anyway the first 2 pieces are Bach's inventions #1 and #8. It's a great help for me anyway to be able to play the parts seperately which the piano lets you do. On the cd that accompanies the alfred edition of the inventions (Valery Lloyd Watts pianist) they don't have the 2 hands seperated so you can't just pop off the headphone on one side to isolate that hand. Anyone know of a cd edition of the inventions that seperated the 2 hands?

Re: Bach Inventions Thread
bluekeys #1625427 02/21/11 06:23 PM
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Can anyone recommend an ornametation reference, especially covering short trills. Something along the lines of trills for dummies might work for me.

Re: Bach Inventions Thread
time flies #1625491 02/21/11 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by time flies
Can anyone recommend an ornametation reference, especially covering short trills. Something along the lines of trills for dummies might work for me.


The Bach Notation Site has some good info. Not exactly "for dummies" but it's pretty straight-forward.

Another thing you might try.... I recently bought this Intro to Chopin Book edited by Willard Palmer. The first few pages were dedicated to reading Chopin notation with a heavy emphasis on how to do the trills. Palmer also has a very similar book on Bach Inventions. I don't know for sure (maybe someone can confirm?) but it seems likely he would have included similar info on Bach trills.

[Edit: deleted some incorrect info about Piano Street editions.]

Last edited by bluekeys; 02/21/11 08:34 PM.
Re: Bach Inventions Thread
limavady #1625527 02/21/11 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by limavady
I've lately been trying learning pieces out of the yamaha '50 Greats For the piano' book that comes with some yamaha digital pianos...and of course the music is also on the pianos themselves (even the p155 although they don't give you the book with that model i had to snag one off of ebay) Anyway the first 2 pieces are Bach's inventions #1 and #8. It's a great help for me anyway to be able to play the parts seperately which the piano lets you do. On the cd that accompanies the alfred edition of the inventions (Valery Lloyd Watts pianist) they don't have the 2 hands seperated so you can't just pop off the headphone on one side to isolate that hand. Anyone know of a cd edition of the inventions that seperated the 2 hands?


You could try sheetmusic2print.com. They have midis of the Inventions but I don't know if the hands are separated. You could download one and try. It looks like you can get them free if you sign up, or pay $2 if you're not a member.

Re: Bach Inventions Thread
bluekeys #1625542 02/21/11 08:50 PM
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Thanks for the link. I've been thinking since i wrote that post just a couple of hours ago, and also partly based on another 'inventions' thread late last year and a closing comment made there, that it might be better to, not necessarily try and play both hands together from the start, but to listen to both parts at any rate. The idea that these are 2 voices and not just a bass line under the melody makes me think that may be a better route to go. It's nice to have the ability to isolate the right and left hands as i can do on the P155 and i'll take them up on it there at least at times but maybe for developing a sense of the entire piece I should not become too 'lazy' and try to do this too much! Thanks again though for that link, as well as this topic, I will check it out!

Re: Bach Inventions Thread
bluekeys #1625544 02/21/11 08:53 PM
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The Bach Notation Site has some good info.


Bluekeys, I think that will work fine. Thanks!

Re: Bach Inventions Thread
bluekeys #1625629 02/21/11 10:55 PM
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Can anyone explain to me the actual benefit of singing the left hand's line while playing the right? I understand it's application in ear training for counterpoint, but does it actually help you play both hands together better?

Re: Bach Inventions Thread
bluekeys #1625809 02/22/11 08:57 AM
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paquijote - I've never tried that on the Inventions, though I have on some simpler Bach. It's a good mental exercise to make sure you're aware of what both hands are doing independently rather than putting one hand on autopilot and thinking only of the one that produces the dominant melody. Unfortunately, it's very hard to do when you have two independent melodies going. The staccato practice discussed above has many of the same benefits and is easier to do. May be a good transitional practice method.

As for making it easier to play both hand together -- maybe a little, but I still rely mainly on brute force repetition to accomplish that.

Re: Bach Inventions Thread
bluekeys #1628518 02/26/11 01:09 PM
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Hi! New to this forum! I have just started learning Bach's Invention 13 yesterday and I all ready have the right hand up to speed(This piece is for my Grade 6 Piano Exam so that's my standard!) The trouble is in the left and, I just cant get the left hand to move fast...
Any tips on playing this fast and perfecting it??


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Re: Bach Inventions Thread
bluekeys #1628663 02/26/11 04:18 PM
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Following this thread with great interest as I recently began learning the Inventions beginning with #13. I have since moved on to #14 but #13 could still do with some more work. So I continue to work on #13 even though I am working on #14 with my teacher. My main issue is speed. I'm not quite there yet but I'm slowly getting there. I've found hands separate practice especially for #13 quite helpful. I've also found being aware of the chords that I'm playing very helpful as it aids in memorization. I think if I were to memorize these pieces I could play them at the correct tempo. We'll see!

Re: Bach Inventions Thread
bluekeys #1628669 02/26/11 04:24 PM
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I tried working on invention 13 in a minor. wow what a beautiful piece. I think its way above my level though. Im trying to walk before i can crawl again. story of my life.=/


music to me is kind of like putting together pieces of a puzzle
i call it the paino because its where i put all my pain
Re: Bach Inventions Thread
bluekeys #1628783 02/26/11 07:48 PM
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Yes, it is absolutely beautiful, I agree with you Joe. It is rated as a level 7 in Magrath's book (her levels are higher than other rating systems, largely because she assumes "student" status). Just so you know, all of her ratings of the two-part inventions are 7-9. I know you are REALLY fond of Bach....have you tried Prelude in C major yet? Absolutely beautiful piece. Magrath rates it a level 4.


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Re: Bach Inventions Thread
GlassLove #1628787 02/26/11 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by GlassLove
Yes, it is absolutely beautiful, I agree with you Joe. It is rated as a level 7 in Magrath's book (her levels are higher than other rating systems, largely because she assumes "student" status). Just so you know, all of her ratings of the two-part inventions are 7-9. I know you are REALLY fond of Bach....have you tried Prelude in C major yet? Absolutely beautiful piece. Magrath rates it a level 4.

I did the first couple bars but never followed through with it and your right it is a beautiful piece. Right now I'm still in the first lessons in bach still and really struggling. I really needa teacher or need to get back into the alfreds more because I'm not sure if I'm quite ready for that kind of repertoire, but i just been goin at it you know to my best ability. Some of isn't actually that hard though. I think my sight reading just needs alot more work and a better overall foundation. =/

Last edited by joeb84; 02/26/11 07:59 PM.

music to me is kind of like putting together pieces of a puzzle
i call it the paino because its where i put all my pain
Re: Bach Inventions Thread
bluekeys #1628788 02/26/11 07:59 PM
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I'm curious what tempo you guys/gals are targeting for #13. My recital version (No. 52) was at about 84, and the latest one on my tube channel is just a hair slower. I'm shooting for 100.

I'm not qualified to give advice to someone taking the grade 6 exam, but I can tell you one thing that definitely did NOT work for me. I have fairly large hands and tried to do the arpeggio motions in measures 3,4, 9, and 10 with my hand spanning a whole octave in order to minimize the number of hand position moves -- so for instance in measure 3 the D to D downward move in the left hand that goes D,A,F,A,D was done with 1,2,3,2,5 instead of repositioning my thumb for the second A. That worked well at slow speeds but was clumsy and caused speed walls in the high 80's.

I've been re-working it for a week or so now and have it going much smoother. I think I'm back up to 80 or so. I've been lazy about doing recordings lately, but I hope to post one that breaks 90 pretty soon.

This has been one of the hardest ones for me, but it's still one of my favorites.

Keep us posted on your progress!


Re: Bach Inventions Thread
bluekeys #1629128 02/27/11 10:41 AM
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I was practicing on the digital this morning and decided to record a new version of #2.

Invention #2 Digital

It's a little rigid in some places but gets better toward the end. I've been playing this one for 8 or 9 months now and only recently feel as though I have it well memorized. It's been the hardest to memorize of the 6 I've tried. The staccato practice on it last week helped quite a bit.

Any comments appreciated and/or tolerated.

Re: Bach Inventions Thread
bluekeys #1629330 02/27/11 02:48 PM
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I worked on No. 1 last fall and played it in a November recital and I'm now working on No. 6, which is quite different in terms of structure and themes typical to Inventions.





I like it a lot, it's quite a bit more challenging than No. 1, but I don't know what the difficulty levels are.





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Re: Bach Inventions Thread
bluekeys #1629403 02/27/11 04:43 PM
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Nice job bluekeys. I especially like your ornamentation - trilling on the auxiliary notes (thanks again for the link).

I'm only on #1 and haven't even read through #2 but I can see how it would be difficult to memorize.

Re: Bach Inventions Thread
cscl #1629406 02/27/11 04:47 PM
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Cscl, what a jazzy invention - lots of syncopation. You played this at the same tempo as GG thumb
You went for the detached/staccato approach and you were very consistent throughout - nice job. And nice steady tempo.

Have you recorded #1?

Last edited by time flies; 02/27/11 04:52 PM.
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