Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum 1895 kimball upright..its beautiful

It is a bit odd.... As every watcher of Antiques Roadshow knows an antique desk or sideboard has to be absolutely authentic; refinishing the thing will destroy its value. The chair that otherwise might have been “worth” $150,000 becomes “worth” $150.

Not so with pianos and especially now with the venerable old upright. Perhaps because there were so many of them produced at the time—by 1911, or 100 years ago, manufacturers were producing them at rates of 300,000 annually—there are still quite a few of them around. So many there is no scarcity of them around. They are not yet the rarity that will cause the price to go up.

Perhaps the day will come when so many have been destroyed that the price for those that remain will increase to the range that the ignorant appraisers of the internet bandy about with such abandon. But this is not the reality of today. In today’s world these things are valued for their musical potential first and their physical appearance second. And, at something around 100 years of age, in an unrestored condition—and regardless of what Aunt Matilda has to say about its “wonderful tone”—its musical value to a real musician is pretty much nothing. Hence its low monetary value.

To be sure, its musical value can be restored but it won’t be cheap. Depending on how extensive the age damage or deterioration, and the usage damage the cost of a proper restoration can range from a few thousand upwards to $20,000 or so. As has been explained, this is not often done simply because; when the work is completed the piano will still not have a monetary value equal to the cost of the restoration. Its value will be only in the ear, the eye, and mind of the owner.

But there is one last puzzlement to me in all of this discussion: If I were to mention to most technicians—and all dealers—that I was restoring one of these old things for a client to the tune of $20,000 they would be instantly critical of my professionalism and, probably, my ethics for all of the above reasons. Mostly this criticism will be based on the fact that, when completed the piano wouldn’t be worth the cost of the restoration; the owner would never be able to sell it for the $20,000 he paid for the restoration. Therefore it’s a bad deal for the owner. These same technicians and dealers will, however, happily recommend that their clients run out and buy a new high-end Brand X upright for $20,000 knowing full well that once the piano has been delivered to the customer’s home the new owner will never be able to sell it for anything close to the $20,000 he paid. So, go figure….

ddf

Interesting point. I think many people have it ingrained in their minds that pianos are an investment. That may be the case, but if so, they are generally poor investments.

However, some people prefer new and some people prefer old. There is no right or wrong with this; it is simply a matter of personal preference. Someone like yourself can take the time to make virtually any piano into a quality instrument, but not everyone who holds themselves out as being able to do so is as talented or knowledgeable as you.

With a new piano, you can hear it in advance. With a restoration, you only really hear it after the restoration. So it's a bigger leap of faith. Most folks, IMO, don't have the stomach for that.

So I can see advising most folks to just buy a new piano. It's easier and less stressful. But I can see advising some folks that they should pursue a restoration because they will truly appreciate it.

But the deciding point definitely should not be cost to long-term value or depreciation.

Interesting point indeed Del. Very interesting in fact. You are very correct in pointing this out too. It may change the way some technicians think about older pianos.

I've recommended time and again, rebuilding various makes and models of grand pianos but, very few complete rebuilds on uprights for that very reason. Will we be able to get that money out of it? Why must that be such an important factor anyway? Quality should be more important than that. Look at how well some of these older pianos were built? Solid as a brick you know what..

An important thing to consider is this. The current piano is now 100 years old. What do we own, other than desks and the like, that still works as well as these old pianos work, after 100 years enduring a LOT of use? So then, by those terms, rebuilding that same piano, for the price you mentioned, divided by the next 100 years of typical usage isn't so bad after all when looked at from that stand point. Many of today's pianos are not built to last 50 years, let alone 100. Back then, it was indeed, a lifetime investment as dealers used to tell people and could be once again, if rebuilt by the right person.

That said, if I were to suggest rebuilding an old upright, it would not be a Kimball. There are better pianos to start with which can be picked up for free.

It’s already becoming some difficult to justify rebuilding many grands based solely on their resale value when completed. Back when I started rebuilding pianos the low end of the market was…well, the low end in terms of build quality and aesthetics as well as action performance and tone. It was pretty easy to take most any old grand, rebuild it decently and compare it to most anything costing sometimes far more than the cost of the rebuild. Looking at the low end of the market today presents us with a whole other musical world. A $10,000 (give or take) 175 cm (5’ 9”) grand with a decent amount of prep work can be a viable competitor to a (standard) rebuilt older high-end instrument. There might still be good reasons to go ahead and rebuild that old Whatever grand but the performance gap is steadily closing.



That is why I suggest that a nicely rebuilt old upright, while it may not command a high price in the marketplace, will still have “value.” I’ve not yet had a customer who had an old upright rebuilt regret the decision.

ddf

Have you ever run into the opposite, someone who replaced with newer instead of rebuilding and regretted the decision later?

Yes, several. Usually after the harder voice of the shiny new piano has begun to grate on the ears some. Voicing the new piano usually helps some but still some folks end up wishing they had kept Grandma’s old upright.

ddf

Greetings all, I am new to this forum, but when I saw this thread, I wanted to add to the conversation even though it's many years old. Growing up, we had a Kimbal Full Upright Piano purchased in 1897 or 1898. It had belonged to a Great Aunt who lived in the Washington DC area. The only real problems with it back in the late 1970s were some damage to the keys' ivory, three misaligned hammers, and two keys with damaged action, and it also needed tuning. It was nothing to look at, but the tonal quality was amazingly rich and warm, which was reminiscent of the Bosendorfer sound. Unfortunately, the piano was conveyed with the house when my parents sold it. I would pay a pretty penny to have that piano back in my life, including the full restoration cost.

thank you for reviving this conversation, as it reminded me how informative and generous Mr. Fandrich was.

pace, hdx

Yes I'll second that...an interesting and informative read

Whenever a client asks me about rebuilding/restoring their old family (or whatever) piano, I immediately inform them that any of money they put into it will never be recouped...therefore if they really want to do this, know in advance that it cannot be for economic return, but strictly for personal/emotional reasons. IOW it is not "worth it" from any economic perspective...but if it's worth it to "you", then it's "worth it" (provided they have the funds and it is not any hardship to spend them).

I've easily talked my way out of numerous rebuilding jobs this way, but my conscience just would not allow it otherwise. Nonetheless I have been surprised at the frequency (though low) with which certain ones admit that they understand but want to do it anyway.

I get it...I often still muse about getting the old Bechstein B back that I grew up learning to play and tune on...I know where it is but it is unavailable. My eyes are watering as I write this...so I get it.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Good advice, Peter. As always.


I get the sentimental side too, though. I'd love to have my childhood piano.

Yes! So much wisdom and knowledge. Someone should put all his posts into a book.

Funny, I made this same point not too long ago.

The 2 situations are not exactly the same. A piano is a usage product, therefore it looses its value over time like a car or any other functional object. When buying a new piano, people know their asset will depreciate per market rate.

When restoring a piano, from a financial point of view if we want to look at it from that standpoint, the question is how much is the piano worth when finished vs the cost of restoring it. If one is spending 20k (plus the cost of buying it) to restore a piano that will be worth 10k then its definitely not a good deal at all compared to buying a new piano.

The amount of cost that it takes to fully restore a piano is in fact not necessarily correlated with its price value on the market and there can be a large gap. Thats where there is a difference.