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Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: rickshapiro] #1617349
02/11/11 02:12 AM
02/11/11 02:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
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cfishy Offline
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I know I'm not going to buy a RD-700NX now. Whether or not I'll actually run into the problem is not the point. I can't see myself paying 2600 bucks with this nagging feeling about this bug. The yamaha C-5 looks dated but I'll try to find a local place to demo. Thanks guys!

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Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: rickshapiro] #1617424
02/11/11 06:28 AM
02/11/11 06:28 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 328
Italy
Qbert Offline
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Italy
This problem would be enough to discourage the NX purchase. But if you consider also the wearing poblem.... well, it doesn't sound a good business at all!


GEM Promega 3 (sold) - Yamaha CLP 170 (sold) - Acuna88 (sold) - Kawai VPC1 + BK7m
Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: Qbert] #1617491
02/11/11 08:57 AM
02/11/11 08:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 171
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rickshapiro Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Qbert
This problem would be enough to discourage the NX purchase. But if you consider also the wearing poblem.... well, it doesn't sound a good business at all!


I would have to agree. Key wear and cut-off issues and the lack of urgency shown by Roland does not bode well.


Music Hack

Nord NP88,Yamaha Motif ES7, Ensoniq KS32, Brodmann 187 Grand, JV2080, GR20, JV90, MKS-20, Sonar S1, Reaper, ACID, Record/Reason, Samplitude, VOX Tonelab, Tech21 Power Engine, NI, Kore, True Piano, Sampletank, Komplete, Bluesky Studio Monitors Yamaha 01X, Line 6 HD500, tons of guitars.
Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: cfishy] #1617494
02/11/11 09:00 AM
02/11/11 09:00 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
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Originally Posted by cfishy
I know I'm not going to buy a RD-700NX now. Whether or not I'll actually run into the problem is not the point. I can't see myself paying 2600 bucks with this nagging feeling about this bug.

It doesn't make it right, but other DPs have other issues and other DP manufacturers are rather tight-lipped when it comes to them. And unless you plan on using the MP3 / WAV playback features a lot it's really not that big of a deal. I don't think you'll encounter it otherwise.

If you live in the states $2600 is too much for the NX. You should request an "Old School" quote from http://www.rmcaudiodirect.com. We got ours with the 3 pedal unit for $2200.

Roland seems to be pretty good about replacing flaking ivory keybeds. This concerns me less now that others are reporting Roland stepping up to the plate when wear problems are encountered.

Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: dewster] #1619418
02/14/11 12:16 AM
02/14/11 12:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 4
Sf Bay Area
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RogerL Offline
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Sf Bay Area
I hope this isnt off topic but I was wondering if anyone has tried the Korg SV-1 and how it compares with the 700NX and CP5 in terms of sound quality and touch (forgetting all the other features the other boards may have). I have a 700GX and although I like the piano sound well enough, I dont like the electric keyboard sounds even the "supernatural" sounds.

I played around with the Korg SV1 at GC and found the electric keyboards to really sparkle and sound alive and were just a lot of fun to play. I dont think they had the latest piano sound upgrade loaded so I wonder if anyone has played the SV1 with the latest upgraded pianos. I am strictly a home amateur and dont play in front of anyone except my wife and 4 year old (but I love jazz and I do go out and pay to hear people like you all play). So, I am curious if anyone has tried the SV1 with the latest sound upgrade and had any thoughts as compared with the 700NX and CP5. Thanks, R

Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: RogerL] #1619498
02/14/11 03:25 AM
02/14/11 03:25 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,112
Glendale, Ca.
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Dave Ferris Offline
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.


https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D
# 571692
Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: dewster] #1619520
02/14/11 04:51 AM
02/14/11 04:51 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 171
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rickshapiro Offline OP
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rickshapiro  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by cfishy
I know I'm not going to buy a RD-700NX now. Whether or not I'll actually run into the problem is not the point. I can't see myself paying 2600 bucks with this nagging feeling about this bug.

It doesn't make it right, but other DPs have other issues and other DP manufacturers are rather tight-lipped when it comes to them. And unless you plan on using the MP3 / WAV playback features a lot it's really not that big of a deal. I don't think you'll encounter it otherwise.

If you live in the states $2600 is too much for the NX. You should request an "Old School" quote from http://www.rmcaudiodirect.com. We got ours with the 3 pedal unit for $2200.

Roland seems to be pretty good about replacing flaking ivory keybeds. This concerns me less now that others are reporting Roland stepping up to the plate when wear problems are encountered.


My question is are they changing out the keybed with something different, something that will not wear so fast and if so have they changed their production line to incorporate the change.


Music Hack

Nord NP88,Yamaha Motif ES7, Ensoniq KS32, Brodmann 187 Grand, JV2080, GR20, JV90, MKS-20, Sonar S1, Reaper, ACID, Record/Reason, Samplitude, VOX Tonelab, Tech21 Power Engine, NI, Kore, True Piano, Sampletank, Komplete, Bluesky Studio Monitors Yamaha 01X, Line 6 HD500, tons of guitars.
Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: rickshapiro] #1619533
02/14/11 05:49 AM
02/14/11 05:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 380
UK
Aidan Offline
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UK
Rick, I think Roland's MO has been to replace worn keyboards like-for-like. So that does kind of beg the question of how many times they are prepared to do so for free...


Live: Casio PX-5S | Hammond SK1
Studio: Yamaha CP4 | Hammond SK2 | Kurzweil PC361 | Moog Sub 37
Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: rickshapiro] #1619843
02/14/11 04:01 PM
02/14/11 04:01 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
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FredFabulous Offline
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Oh yea if key weight IS a factor I'd say the NX is pretty heavy for a DP. Still not close to most grand pianos though (closer to acoustic upright perhaps). The CP5 action is good, it's fun to play, but not very authentic. Which it never pretends to be really. Again IMO smile

Cheers
Fred


RD-700NX (25 nov 2010)
Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: Qbert] #1622311
02/17/11 05:51 PM
02/17/11 05:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 107
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RolandRD2000 Offline
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Exactly!

I'm the guy that made this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNNGiJjPEI4
and I don't see how anyone can say i'm playing in an 'unrealistic manner' or something... It's supposed to be able to handle any playing styles, so if I was playing in an unrealistic manner it should be able to handle it... BUT i'm not, I'm just playing some 'fast' sort of jazz, I want to be able to play the keyboard without having to worry about what I do so I don't get the 'cut off' sound.

What if I wanted to play some Ragtime, that involves vamping on chords and playing a melody, and do some Jazz etc. The supernatural video says it can handle any playing style etc. So surely the processor should be built so it can handle this... I hope that it will be fixed with a software update because I'll have to get my money back.

In most of that video, I'm doing pretty simple things, especially the start part with 8 notes, just going up and down on the same chord... so no one can tell me that's an unreal way of playing.

Also the playing back of audio problem, this is a very big issue, I'm playing back WAV's as requested, and just listen to the cut off I get when doing that, a lot of my performances involve playing to backing tracks, and the whole point in purchasing this keyboard was to be able to do that on the machine, and trigger the track with a pedal or something. I noticed someone said they wouldn't be playing as much if they were playing to a backing track, so it doesn't really bother them.... but what if I want to!? A lot of the tracks I plan to play over, are double bass lines with some drums, so I need to play the piano how I would play a normal piano.

The whole point in having this amazing supernatural piano sound, is to get it sounding like a piano, and I can't understand how ANYONE could just accept this issue, EVEN if you aren't planning on playing back audio files, when paying 2 grand for a keyboard that says it can handle these things (and doesn't warn you that it will cut off etc.) It's just not acceptable at all, and as a result I'm looking into other keyboards (which is annoying because this is perfect apart from this issue) if this issue doesn't get fixed.

I've been in contact with Roland about this since December, and it's been a long drawn out process, The head technician from Roland says he's waiting to hear from Japan Roland to say wether or not it's going to be fixable or not, as they're "looking into it" but they've been "looking into it" for a good while now... and I'm starting to loose hope.

It really is unacceptable, and however anyone plans on playing, using audio playback or not, how anyone can accept this issue is beyond me....

What do you think we should do? Hopefully Roland will see that it's customers aren't happy and want a solution to this problem... even if it does mean using some new sort of processor, I think we deserve it... smile

Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: rickshapiro] #1622322
02/17/11 06:04 PM
02/17/11 06:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,528
Nashville, Tennessee
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PianoZac Offline
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JHbackingtracks,

I believe I spoke to you on YouTube (I'm username zaf511). I experienced the same thing, only worse with my RD-700GXF. The reason it was worse was because my processor was bogged down with the stock GX processor plus the added K-RD700GX1 SN upgrade. When I spoke to a Roland tech, he was aware of the videos but said that they were not realistic playing scenarios. He said the cut off was a limitation in the processor of the RD-700. Roland ought to address that as well as the Ivory key wear. The key wear wasn't an issue for me, but needless to say, I ended up selling my RD-700GXF and went for the Nord Piano. Glad I did.

Good luck with your RD-700NX. It really is a great board, on eof the best really, but there's just a couple issues that need to be addressed. Have you considered what else you might go with if Roland can't or won't fix the problems you and many others have had? The CP5/50, MP6/MP10, SV-1 88, and Nord Piano are just a few of the really great options out there. However, I'm partial to the NP88 now. wink


Kawai MP7SE w/ GFP-3
Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: RolandRD2000] #1622417
02/17/11 08:48 PM
02/17/11 08:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
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Originally Posted by JHbackingtracks
I'm the guy that made this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNNGiJjPEI4
and I don't see how anyone can say i'm playing in an 'unrealistic manner' or something... It's supposed to be able to handle any playing styles, so if I was playing in an unrealistic manner it should be able to handle it... BUT i'm not, I'm just playing some 'fast' sort of jazz, I want to be able to play the keyboard without having to worry about what I do so I don't get the 'cut off' sound.

I've watched your video a couple of times, and I don't really hear the note decays cutting out until you start playing the audio file and turn it down, after which it is pretty obvious when you play certain ways. Can you hear the note decays cutting out before that point? If you can and I can't, it might be an issue with the way the audio was captured / compressed in the video, it seems rather poor quality for some reason. I'm listening to it through good quality headphones.

Originally Posted by JHbackingtracks
The whole point in having this amazing supernatural piano sound, is to get it sounding like a piano, and I can't understand how ANYONE could just accept this issue, EVEN if you aren't planning on playing back audio files, when paying 2 grand for a keyboard that says it can handle these things (and doesn't warn you that it will cut off etc.) It's just not acceptable at all, and as a result I'm looking into other keyboards (which is annoying because this is perfect apart from this issue) if this issue doesn't get fixed.

The thing is, ALL DPs have issues. Some you as an individual will never notice, some you will notice but can live with, some that will grate on your nerves, and some that will drive you positively insane. Looping drives me pretty crazy, and I also strongly dislike stretching so, for me personally, Roland SN is just about the only hardware turnkey solution left standing. If Roland can fix this that would be great, but if they can't it probably won't kill the NX for me - no one around here plays it nearly that frenetically, nor plays to backing tracks, so it's one of those things that will seldom if ever be noticed. That doesn't make it right though. But like I said, all DPs have issues.

Originally Posted by JHbackingtracks
I've been in contact with Roland about this since December, and it's been a long drawn out process, The head technician from Roland says he's waiting to hear from Japan Roland to say wether or not it's going to be fixable or not, as they're "looking into it" but they've been "looking into it" for a good while now... and I'm starting to loose hope.

Let us know how it goes. I've got an email into them regarding no damper pedal noises with MIDI playback but no one has even acknowledged it yet. Do you have contact info you could provide (e.g. email address you used that got some kind of response)? I'd also like to know how to adjust the sympathetic resonance via MIDI, that seems to be missing from the manual set. At least we can assume the NX has upgradable firmware, since the GX SN expansion comes with new firmware on a thumb drive. Many DPs don't have that luxury. Too bad there isn't an open source movement for DPs.

Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: dewster] #1622609
02/18/11 02:52 AM
02/18/11 02:52 AM
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cfishy Offline
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I can't see how they are able to fix a slow processor without incurring insane costs. The entire PCB needs to be replaced unless if the chip is removable - not likely in a DP. As of speeding up OS software... yes it's remotely possible if there's a big bug and they have high level of engineering that can find it.

Looking at how fast they release new products, I suspect they'll just push out the next iteration quickly.

Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: RolandRD2000] #1622639
02/18/11 04:23 AM
02/18/11 04:23 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,164
Sydney, Australia
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sullivang Offline
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Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted by JHbackingtracks
Exactly!

I'm the guy that made this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNNGiJjPEI4


FWIW, the main thing I notice is that the release times seem very fast, around the middle of the keyboard. I.e - when the keys are released, the sound dies away too rapidly, producing an unnaturally staccato sound.

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 02/18/11 04:23 AM.
Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: sullivang] #1634508
03/05/11 11:22 PM
03/05/11 11:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 107
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RolandRD2000 Offline
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Hello Everyone,

Sorry for a delay in replying... I have never used this forum before this, and it took me ages again to find this page, have finally found it!

Well unfortunately it's bad news. I got a message from the tech guy I've been talking to at Roland the past few months, and he suggests I don't waste any more time sitting around waiting, as nothing is probably going to be done (this was his personal non official Roland opinion)

So a few things to say.... Yes the video doesn't show the note stealing at its 'best' (worst!!!) the quality of the recording didn't help, and also it has a mind of its own when deciding to 'cut off' sometimes with just 2 notes depending the 'way' you play them after doing what ever you've just played etc. But mostly you can get it to happen with 8 notes plus, and it doesn't matter if its the middle, high or low end by the way.

Yes its much more obvious with the audio file being played (and after you've heard it you know what to listen for) when the problem first happened to me, I thought it was me being paranoid or something... but in the end convinced myself I wasn't! - But you can certainly tell and not 'get away' with the issue when playing at a gig and being amplified, and playing jazz especially... plus you don't feel safe when playing because you're scared it's going to happen, and you know it WILL just don't know when....

As Dewester said, ALL DP's probably have issues... some you can 'live' with and some you can't.... but I certainly can't live with this, apart from the fact I KNOW it's there (which is bad enough when paying 2k for a keyboard) a lot of people (especially my friends) WOULD notice that issue, and musicians a like... just something that can't be dealt with.

Playing to backing tracks (Everyone seems to think I'm using MP3 in that video, but i'm actually using WAV) is something that I NEED To be able to do, as I play a lot for Theatre, and pre-program all the other parts before hand and need to be able to play over them, and ideally trigger them from a pedal or button, not have an ipod next to me and mess about controlling different things etc. Especially for cueing different sections. ALL these features the keyboard has are the reason I bought the machine, plus with it being Roland didn't think I'd have hassles like this.

So yes, Cfishy you're right, they won't be fixing it by the sounds of things, they've basically 'gotten away' with it... with it being a hardware problem they can't fix it.

The really annoying thing is, is that I've wasted time and money purchasing it, and I'm now going to have to travel back to the shop to get a refund and then try out other gear to see what else will work etc. I've just had the NX sitting there for ages now not being able to use it.

So the next problem is, what do I use next! That has super natural pianos (or as good as) And has good sounding electric pianos and organs, a good feel, and the ability to play back tracks without killing its self doing both at the same time.

What I have been using in the past is a midi controller with Main Stage (that comes with Logic) ON a mac, there are NO limitations what so ever, I use a steinway piano on the EXS24 sampler (64 note polyphony) and if I wanted to layer 22 instruments I could without reducing polyphony, and could play along to a backing track without reducing polyphony, and no matter how 'unrealistic' i played the piano I couldn't get cut offs to happen, all it did was just making the computer sweat a bit more! So why they can't make keyboards that you pay thousands for have processors that can handle all this... I don't know...

But anyway, my main use would is the SN piano, backing track playback, and reasonable organs and e pianos... and the rest of the sounds wouldn't be used probably, and might occasional want one layer. So the actual note stealing wouldn't be a problem, but this 'cut off' isn't note stealing.

So I've been looking at other Roland products that I could use a stage piano that do all this, none of the RD's seem to be able to handle the SN pianos (especially with audio play back) as it's something to do with the processor, I read on another forum that the V-piano and FP7F doesn't have this issue.... I'm very glad to hear the V piano doesn't when paying nearly 4 grand lol! but the FP not having the issue! That's crazy, it's a cheaper 'not as good' keyboard... and the issue doesn't occur on it!! It should be the other way round if anything?!

I don't want to spend more than I have on the NX.... so I'm actually considering downgrading to the FP if it's true it doesn't have the issue (although it warns you polyphony 'might' be reduced when playing back with audio) I'll have to try it out for myself somewhere before purchasing though, it seems to have the same key feel, and a super natural piano engine, but i'd probably be loosing lots of the SN piano sounds which I'd really miss after being used to an NX for 3 months, and I'd definitely miss the E pianos, but could 'live' without them.... and it seems the other sounds are similar, I will REALLY miss the knobs and faders, as I'll be in a stage environment and need to be able to quickly save/load sounds and edit them. However I'd be gaining the audio key which was taken away on the NX which would be good for someone like me that uses backing tracks (assuming the FP can handle them) and the speakers will be useful to hear myself (nothing more probably) the keyboard its self isn't too attractive compared to the NX!! But I suppose it's about the sound.....

If I end up doing this, I will really miss lots of the NX features, and am really annoyed the stress/time/money/hassle Roland has put me through... I went with Roland for their brilliant reputation in keyboard etc. But they've really let me down...

If the FP still doesn't do the job after I test things out, then really don't know what to do.... I was looking at a Yamaha S90XS it seemed to have assignable knobs and faders, and a few gimmicky features I probably wouldn't use professionally but good to play with, however the piano sounds I've heard on youtube so far don't sound too amazing (especially when wanting an SN sort of sound!!) I was then thinking maybe a Korg M3, as It being a sampler, I'd be able to assign backing tracks to a key, and also load logics piano samples in. BUT it would mean paying more and I'd be getting so much I dont need/want (although it's good to have) I'd RATHER just have an NX that didn't do these crazy issues.

I noticed a few other problems when having one final mess around on the NX today, quite a crazy one, when 'coupling' the piano sound so it plays an octave up, some notes randomly sustain on their own... and you can imagine how bad the cut off is with 2 SN pianos... especially WITH audio playback!! and other little issues that sullivang pointed out, I'm sure more will crop up as I have no confidence in the keyboard after what I've experienced..

Anyway.... I hope this helps NX users and potential NX users, I'm very annoyed it's basically been said now that there probably won't be a fix.... but I'll be most annoyed if I find out in 5 months time there's some sort of fix.... but it doesn't look like there will be. Hopefully Rolands next RD they'll take all this on board (although I'm sure they knew this was going to happen)

Look forward to hearing what people have to say smile - I am very sorry to be all negative about all this, but obviously we want the best for all keyboard players, and it's very annoying when the NX is so perfect in every way for me (and others) expect this issue, which IS an issue!

Best Regards,
James smile

Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: rickshapiro] #1634605
03/06/11 02:29 AM
03/06/11 02:29 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,579
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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If you absolutely must have an SN piano, go for the FP-7F.
If you require additional flexibility/control, perhaps it's time to take another look at the Yamaha CP5/CP50 and Kawai MP10/MP6.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: rickshapiro] #1634642
03/06/11 04:37 AM
03/06/11 04:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 380
UK
Aidan Offline
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UK
James (JT), for the sort of work you're describing, I would absolutely hold fire until the Korg Kronos ships. It sounds like it could be the perfect fit for you. Loads of videos now available on YouTube if you're not yet hip to this new arrival.


Live: Casio PX-5S | Hammond SK1
Studio: Yamaha CP4 | Hammond SK2 | Kurzweil PC361 | Moog Sub 37
Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: Aidan] #1634645
03/06/11 04:58 AM
03/06/11 04:58 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 328
Italy
Qbert Offline
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Here in Italy the Kronos presentation tour has started. Someone was able to put his hands on too! Well, the comments on piano sound weren't so good. It doesn't sound better than other stage pianos.


GEM Promega 3 (sold) - Yamaha CLP 170 (sold) - Acuna88 (sold) - Kawai VPC1 + BK7m
Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: rickshapiro] #1634731
03/06/11 09:42 AM
03/06/11 09:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 380
UK
Aidan Offline
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UK
Interesting, Qbert. Did the person commenting adversely play a weighted Kronos, though, or the 61? That could have a significant effect on the perception of the piano voice's quality.

Of course, it could be that after all the hype, the Kronos's pianos prove less than the sum of its parts. And although you've got no looping to worry about, it could be that velocity layers still prove problematic - as I recall, I don't remember the Kronos featuring any modelling ala CP or SN pianos to even that problem out, though I may be wrong.


Live: Casio PX-5S | Hammond SK1
Studio: Yamaha CP4 | Hammond SK2 | Kurzweil PC361 | Moog Sub 37
Re: RD700NX Versus CP5 [Re: rickshapiro] #1634821
03/06/11 01:00 PM
03/06/11 01:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
I put the Kronos EXs6 SGX-1 German D and Japanese C Pianos in the begging section of the DPBSD so maybe someone will come through with those. I'm super interested in how they will test.

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