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Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: jazzwee] #1619387
02/13/11 10:17 PM
02/13/11 10:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
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Scottsdale, AZ
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FarmGirl Offline

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This link is from our local music school. The link includes all 12 etudes and cortot's instructions. Enjoy.

http://www.waltercosand.com/CosandScores/Composers%20A-D/Chopin,%20Fr%e9d%e9ric/Find_by_Opus_Number/op10_Etudes(Cortot_Engl).pdf


1) Bach c minor fantasy
2) Morzart Rondo in A minor, K511
3) Schubert Impromptu A flat D935 No2
4) Scriabin op11 prelude #2 and #14 (Re do #2, new #14)
5) kabalevsky Variations in A minor OP 40-2
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Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: jazzwee] #1619423
02/13/11 11:25 PM
02/13/11 11:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
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Ann Arbor, MI
jazzyprof Offline
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I've decided to toss my hat in the ring too and take on this monster of an etude! Since I'm busy with other pieces I'll follow the slow 5-year plan with this one. smile I'll work at the leisurely pace of two measures a day. I figure I'll have the notes learnt in 40 days, and then the real hard work of attaining velocity will begin. So, measures 1 and 2, here I come!


"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: jazzwee] #1619426
02/13/11 11:27 PM
02/13/11 11:27 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
So. California
jazzwee Offline OP
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Oh good. Thanks FarmGirl and Liszt85. I got the Cortot instructions when I first started it so I was also going to offer a copy. I didn't see that instruction on deflecting. I better re-read it.

So Liszt85, based on what I'm playing now, I haven't needed to change my goal of playing it completely legato. And I'm glad that multiple people seem to think it's the right thing to do. It would be a shame to have to do it much differently later on.




Pianoclues.com for Beginners
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Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: hawgdriver] #1619434
02/13/11 11:39 PM
02/13/11 11:39 PM
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So. California
jazzwee Offline OP
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Originally Posted by hawgdriver
Jazzwee, could you highlight the most troubling passages to help us determine how much effort might be involved?


hawgdriver, I've only done the 1st page, which is about 17 measures or so (I'll refer to it as Section 1 based on some internet tutorial).

The most difficult part for me came IMMEDIATELY smile On measures 3 and 4. Once I got over that, the next difficulty is with measure 5 when you have the LH involved. The rest of section 1 is less difficult than those bars.

So you can see that you have to start thinking so early on. It's not like you work on 10 pages and then find out you can't play the last line smile It comes to you pretty much immediately.



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Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: Nyiregyhazi] #1619440
02/13/11 11:50 PM
02/13/11 11:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
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Ann Arbor, MI
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Originally Posted by Nyiregyhazi
G sharp to E, (with 3-5) just before the recap is one of the few that sometimes troubles me (one of the few that troubles me as a stretch, that is- plenty of spots trouble me in terms of difficulty).

What do you consider to be the most difficult measures in the piece? I sometimes learn the most difficult parts first.


"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: jazzwee] #1619445
02/14/11 12:02 AM
02/14/11 12:02 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
So. California
jazzwee Offline OP
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Paul Barton - Tutorial

This was passed on by Kreisler in a past post and it shows an introduction on how to approach this. He also discusses the "7 sections" of the piece.

Section 1 and Section 7 are pretty much the same except for slight differences in the bass line.

He has some other videos to expand this tutorial.



Pianoclues.com for Beginners
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Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: jazzwee] #1619468
02/14/11 01:13 AM
02/14/11 01:13 AM
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London, UK (though if it's Aug...
keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
If the negativity is to say that only a speed of 176bpm is acceptable, then I will counter with sheet music labeled 144bpm. So apparently someone thought that was acceptable.
Nice point. At any speed, done souplesse, this Etude is good for you and enjoyable.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: jazzwee] #1619475
02/14/11 01:35 AM
02/14/11 01:35 AM
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keyboardklutz Offline
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Here, as requested, are my videos. They've been called horrendous, containing of many errors, intermediate amateur, having obvious difficulties etc, etc. - sadly there are some posters who can only see and hear what they want to. Played like this though there is zero chance of injury. I'll do a speaking tutorial on this method if requested. Also notice accents are done going up not just down - you can watch any youtube video and you'll find always accents going down, but never up - this is totally unsatisfactory (here's Pollini as a random example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXS5c6TXhKo) I use plenty of ulnar/radial deviation which is fine on a momentarily basis. I also disagree with Cortot - it's not about finger strength. You need to bring that with you. I will say this - this method was taught to me by one of the world's greatest piano pedagogues. A few years ago she was presented with one of MTNA's top awards.




This is what the wrist should feel like as you play.



snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: jazzwee] #1619478
02/14/11 01:46 AM
02/14/11 01:46 AM
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So. California
jazzwee Offline OP
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Thanks kbk. I think it's important to try all these out. Though you got a lot of flack on your videos, it helped release my wrist just by the awareness it brought about by the discussion of suppleness.

I believe your approach is more leading with the arm. Which I've tried too. It's less effort but requires more control which I don't have.

N.'s style is more finger leading which has more control but requires more finger strength, which I also don't have.

So I combine the two somehow to make for it. As I develop more control or more finger strength, it may be necessary to reassess this to get to a higher tempo.


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
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Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: jazzwee] #1619482
02/14/11 01:50 AM
02/14/11 01:50 AM
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London, UK (though if it's Aug...
keyboardklutz Offline
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Here's your homework - how many vids can you find that only do the accents going down leaving out the ones going up?


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: jazzwee] #1619487
02/14/11 01:58 AM
02/14/11 01:58 AM
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Canada
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I read through it today (way below tempo, of course). Wow, it's very disorienting to arpeggiate beyond an octave. It sounds too blocky and unmusical at a slow tempo. We'll see if I can get enough motivation to see this through. I've never been crazy about this étude to begin with, but all those threads on here have got me curious.

Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: jazzwee] #1619492
02/14/11 02:07 AM
02/14/11 02:07 AM
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Posts: 7,203
So. California
jazzwee Offline OP
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Bar 23 looks tough - B to A with fingers 1-2. That may be the biggest interval yet.

Also, I've heard this section played detached, pearly, and no pedal though the score shows pedal.


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Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: jazzwee] #1619527
02/14/11 04:15 AM
02/14/11 04:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 415
Berlin
Bunneh Offline
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This was a very interesting read so far, thanks Jazzwee!

One question I have concerns the elephant-in-the-room topic of hand stretch. While I wouldn't dream of playing the etude with my 2.5 years of experience, I'd love to have a go at the Cortot exercises.

How would you play / adapt them if you cannot reach a 10th? Are they still useful exercises? I can do a 9th with my RH and barely a 10th with my LH. So I might really benefit from stretching exercises, but I want to make sure I do it right.
I do have a teacher who can have a look at what I am doing in the process but this would be more of a side project for me.

Thanks for any suggestions!


aim for the moon - if you miss, at least you'll be among the stars.
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Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: jazzwee] #1619532
02/14/11 04:28 AM
02/14/11 04:28 AM
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keyboardklutz Offline
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Bunneh, this Etude is not about stretch. It teaches you to reach far without any stretch. Don't try and play finger legato.

This cannot be repeated enough - transmitted by his top pupil (Madame Streicher):
Chopin said 'I am quite aware that it is a generally prevalent error, even in our day, that one can only play this study well when one possesses a very large hand. But this is not the case, only a supple hand is required.'

Jazzwee you are in good company. It seems that Hans von Bülow recommended a slower tempo.

This quote from Streicher (supposedly something Chopin said) I'd love to see in the original French or German: "This etude will do you very much good if you study it correctly; it will stretch your hand. But if you study it badly it will injure you."

I'm sure the word 'stretch' has been mis-translated - any takers?

Last edited by keyboardklutz; 02/14/11 04:39 AM.

snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: jazzwee] #1619546
02/14/11 05:35 AM
02/14/11 05:35 AM
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Berlin
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Berlin
kbk, thanks for your quick reply. Google Books unfortunately doesn't show the autograph of Ms. Müller-Streicher's diary.

The quote is on Wikipedia, as source is listed:
Ekier, Jan, ed. (National Edition). "About the Etudes." Chopin Etudes. Warsaw: Polskie Wydawnictwo Muzyczne, 1999.

So would you agree that the Cortot exercises make sense regardless of stretch, that you should simply play them non-legato in such a case?


aim for the moon - if you miss, at least you'll be among the stars.
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Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: jazzwee] #1619551
02/14/11 06:41 AM
02/14/11 06:41 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 122
North Carolina
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I would like to add something my teacher and I discussed a bit last week...the importance of anticipating and knowing spot on your transitions. If there is a hesitation or an unsurety about your next set of notes, you will be forced to either slow your final arpeggio before the transition or the first arpeggio after the transition.


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Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: FarmGirl] #1619574
02/14/11 07:42 AM
02/14/11 07:42 AM
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France
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Originally Posted by FarmGirl
This link is from our local music school. The link includes all 12 etudes and cortot's instructions. Enjoy.

http://www.waltercosand.com/CosandScores/Composers%20A-D/Chopin,%20Fr%e9d%e9ric/Find_by_Opus_Number/op10_Etudes(Cortot_Engl).pdf



Hello FarmGirl/TheMostImprovedDog smile

Thanks for that link..

Actually, I'm not working on OP 10 nº1 at the moment, but Op 10 nº3 (which is in your pdf) and Op 25 nos 1 and 12.. I found the pdf file that covers Op 25 via your link.

It does look like they will help me quite a lot!

Thanks again and

Good luck to all!


Maharishi wink
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And my faithful friend..
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Hellas upright, CP5
Some of my practice sessions : Grieg, Schubert, Chopin, Schumann
Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: Bunneh] #1619595
02/14/11 08:17 AM
02/14/11 08:17 AM
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keyboardklutz Offline
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Originally Posted by Bunneh

So would you agree that the Cortot exercises make sense regardless of stretch, that you should simply play them non-legato in such a case?
Yes. This Etude certainly requires exercises - his are good.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: keyboardklutz] #1619619
02/14/11 09:01 AM
02/14/11 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Originally Posted by Bunneh

So would you agree that the Cortot exercises make sense regardless of stretch, that you should simply play them non-legato in such a case?
Yes. This Etude certainly requires exercises - his are good.


And yet his exercises stress the importance of legato (finger legato) and the importance of stretching, both of which you're opposed to. So why do you think his exercises are good? He also advocates finger strength, which you are opposed to too. He does emphasize a supple wrist, which I think we all can agree with.


Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)
Re: Chopin Etude Opus 10 No 1 Study Group [Re: jazzwee] #1619677
02/14/11 10:56 AM
02/14/11 10:56 AM
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keyboardklutz Offline
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I'm not oppossed to finger strength, it's just that this is not a good Etude to develop it - a supple moving wrist has too much give to support effective finger strengthening. Also combine that with stretching and you could well do damage.

I recommend this Brahms for strengthening fingers:
[Linked Image]


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

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