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Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: Damon] #1618525
02/12/11 08:15 PM
02/12/11 08:15 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,190
Phoenix, Arizona
Carey Offline
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Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by carey

Give it a rest guys. You've succeeded in convincing me NEVER to bother to learn the Opus 10 No. 1.


I was thinking about learning it with only the accents and the left hand. smirk


grin grin grin

Actually I have my hands full right now putting the finishing touches on Opus 25 No. 1, 2, 9 and 12. At my age I gotta pick my battles !! There are several other etudes in Opus 10 and 25 that I'd like to learn before attempting the Opus 10 No. 1.



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Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: jazzwee] #1618558
02/12/11 09:18 PM
02/12/11 09:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,833
Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Orange Soda King Offline
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
One of the real contributions people can make here it to discuss how they got their speed up and what discoveries they made along the way.

Any takers?

It doesn't mean you got it to 176bpm. But if got it from 80 to 144, then let's hear how you did that.



Ask this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVC9ESsA3Go

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618601
02/12/11 10:34 PM
02/12/11 10:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,464
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
At last a voice of reason. Why all the animosity is beyond me. My interpretation is perfectly valid and justifiable, but in the end you play it how you wish.


Your interpretation is indeed valid- as an INTERPRETATION. It is not valid to say that Chopin DEFINITELY intended to signify very literal accents throughout the etude. Neither is it valid to dimiss alternative ways of interpeting accents THAT HE DID NOT WRITE- or to refer to it as if he DID write them in. I would very much like to hear your source for the "convention" that he intended every beat to be very literally accented, that you state as if it were fact .



Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: Orange Soda King] #1618617
02/12/11 11:24 PM
02/12/11 11:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Here, as opposed to there
stores Offline
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Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Originally Posted by jazzwee
One of the real contributions people can make here it to discuss how they got their speed up and what discoveries they made along the way.

Any takers?

It doesn't mean you got it to 176bpm. But if got it from 80 to 144, then let's hear how you did that.



Ask this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVC9ESsA3Go


hahaha! I love that video and am pretty sure I've posted it here elsewhere before. Kills me every time I see it.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618641
02/13/11 12:53 AM
02/13/11 12:53 AM
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Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
So, I'll recap: Chopin asked for accents on every beat in this piece.


Chopin did no such thing. He wrote accents in the first two bars. He did not "ask" for this to continue. It is entirely down to the person reading what he wrote to make up their own mind whether he is likely to have intended for the entire piece to consist of accents (or whether he failed to continue writing them in order to prevent excessively pronounced accentuation).

It is entirely unreasonable to attribute YOUR extrapolations of what you think Chopin meant to what HE "asked for"- in fact it is simply dishonest to make such a statement as if it were fact. He did not ask for accents on every beat in this piece and neither does any "convention" I know of make this an acceptable statement of fact to make. It is a personal extrapolation of what he MIGHT have meant, not what Chopin asked for.

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618645
02/13/11 01:12 AM
02/13/11 01:12 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,798
Ann Arbor, MI
jazzyprof Offline
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Originally Posted by Nyiregyhazi
Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
So, I'll recap: Chopin asked for accents on every beat in this piece.


Chopin did no such thing.

He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
.
.
.
ad nauseum.



"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: jazzyprof] #1618648
02/13/11 01:18 AM
02/13/11 01:18 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,833
Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Orange Soda King Offline
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,833
Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Hey look, it's Phillip Glass again!!

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: Nyiregyhazi] #1618678
02/13/11 03:06 AM
02/13/11 03:06 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
keyboardklutz Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Nyiregyhazi

Chopin did no such thing. He wrote accents in the first two bars. He did not "ask" for this to continue.
So, again that just shows your knowledge of notational convention to be quite poor.

Folks this is really quite simple. Instead of silly posting look at the score - you'll realize there are accents throughout. For anyone to claim they disappear after two bars or that something can be inferred from their absence is is not only nonsensical, it's nonmusical. But then, I suppose, this is the internet.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618688
02/13/11 03:37 AM
02/13/11 03:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,264
Pretoria South Africa
btb Offline
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Posts: 4,264
Pretoria South Africa
Does anyone know Chopin's telephone number so that we can settle the hash? ... my guess is Pearly Gates Poland Etude 10-1 ... that's of course if St. Peter let Fred in ... and liked his rattling Studies.

But some people like to have “the last word” (27 pages later) ... and OP klutz should know better than to goad the piano teacher to endlessly rancour correction with ...

“I can't believe you are still claiming Chopin requires ACCENTS,
rather than MILD EMPHASIS.”

It’s enough to make my dog howl...such crass pigheadedness is inevitably rewarded with unimaginative thinking.

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: btb] #1618700
02/13/11 04:31 AM
02/13/11 04:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 405
Portland, OR
A
antony Offline
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Posts: 405
Portland, OR
Originally Posted by btb
Does anyone know Chopin's telephone number so that we can settle the hash? ... my guess is Pearly Gates Poland Etude 10-1 ... that's of course if St. Peter let Fred in ... and liked his rattling Studies.

But some people like to have “the last word” (27 pages later) ... and OP klutz should know better than to goad the piano teacher to endlessly rancour correction with ...

“I can't believe you are still claiming Chopin requires ACCENTS,
rather than MILD EMPHASIS.”

It’s enough to make my dog howl...such crass pigheadedness is inevitably rewarded with unimaginative thinking.


I have to admit that was quite funny...I would love to call Fred but my ATT plan is crud and I couldn't even begin to imagine the astronomical fees I'd incur with a call to the 'nether.

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618702
02/13/11 04:34 AM
02/13/11 04:34 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 10,856
London, UK (though if it's Aug...
keyboardklutz Offline OP
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So, MILD EMPHASIS eh?
[Linked Image]

And these too?

[Linked Image]
Thanks for pointing that out Sir b.

Here's a guy who can do the 'downs', can't manage the 'ups' though.



And of all youtubes only one who can do the accents in no 8:

Last edited by keyboardklutz; 02/13/11 06:56 AM.

snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: btb] #1618761
02/13/11 08:11 AM
02/13/11 08:11 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 122
North Carolina
I'll be Bach Offline
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North Carolina
Originally Posted by btb
Does anyone know Chopin's telephone number so that we can settle the hash? ... my guess is Pearly Gates Poland Etude 10-1 ...


Even easier...can't someone just friend him on facebook and ask?



[Linked Image]
Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: jazzwee] #1618762
02/13/11 08:17 AM
02/13/11 08:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 122
North Carolina
I'll be Bach Offline
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North Carolina
Originally Posted by jazzwee
One of the real contributions people can make here it to discuss how they got their speed up and what discoveries they made along the way.

Any takers?

It doesn't mean you got it to 176bpm. But if got it from 80 to 144, then let's hear how you did that.



While I am just learning the piece I will say repeating each 4 measure section to my wife's quiet never let him see how tired I am of him doing those same 4 measures, until the motions are really ingrained has helped my speed and has allowed my to free myself of unwanted tension. But I think you are right...one I fall in the B camp of your A or B and secondly, I think if I can play this piece at a tempo that is acceptable for me, that will please me to know end.


[Linked Image]
Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: btb] #1618776
02/13/11 08:31 AM
02/13/11 08:31 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Here, as opposed to there
stores Offline
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Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by btb
Does anyone know Chopin's telephone number so that we can settle the hash?


Not sure about his number, but there's that person over in the Chopin forum who claims to converse with him regularly (or something like that).



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618795
02/13/11 09:09 AM
02/13/11 09:09 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,464
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Nyiregyhazi Offline
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz

And these too?

[Linked Image]
Thanks for pointing that out Sir b.

Here's a guy who can do the 'downs', can't manage the 'ups' though.


Hmmm. So this time Chopin could be bothered to write them out rather than rely on the "convention" that says they are supposed to be repeated. Not so lazy this time. Or then again, maybe it is not necessarily within the realms of possibility that in one piece he wanted the reader to see something that looks rather smoother, whereas in this dramatic work he wanted the visual nature of the accents to be at the forefront. Purely an opinion of course- as is your interpretation of what his notations in op. 10 no. 1 signifies.

How many times are you going to have to be asked to stop being such a hypocrite as to ignore my requests for a source regarding this "convention"? If you are not going to either provide one (or admit that your view of the accents is a singular interpretation of what Chopin MAY have meant, among other valid ones) then please change the footer that appears in your posts.

If you sincerely feel you are in command of proven facts here (allowing to accuse anyone who disagrees with your view as being unable to read a score) please demonstrate that. Alternatively, is it so hard for a person to admit that their interpretation of an ambiguous score cannot be proven as a singular "correct" one?


Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618800
02/13/11 09:26 AM
02/13/11 09:26 AM
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I regard the character of Op.10 No.12 as very different from that of Op.10 No.1. With No.12 I interpret the accents as "with as much emphasis as possible without jeopardizing flowing execution" -- far more insistent and fiery than No.1. And, as Nyire observes, the accents are written in more extensively too, almost in full every time the "fiery" theme returns.

------------------------------------------------------------------

With No.8 I see accents to show the desired articulation. Measures come in three main varieties:

1. All four beats marked (pom pom pom pom)
2. 1st and 3rd beats marked (pom --- pom ---)
3. 1st, 3rd & 4th beats marked (pom --- pom pom)

Getting the "pom"s correct gives the piece good shape and adds to its sparkle and verve, but I don't consider it necessary to bring out the accents to the point, say, that they are very noticeable to almost any listener who doesn't know they are written into the music. I'd say that mild-to-moderate suggestion is fine. And I certainly don't consider strong accents crucial to a good performance of the piece, which seems to be your perspective.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding No.1, I don't see why Chopin would use accents to illustrate where the music deviates from the convention you cite of increased volume when going up in pitch and decreased volume when coming down in pitch, rather than broader dynamic marks. I regard the "convention" as a very natural impulse in humans for thousands of years, not just the 19th century, but in a subtle way, in other words, where poco or pochissimo would need to be written if the instinct/convention were to be notated. The use of accents this way just about makes sense if one regards Op.10 No.1 having a "tune" in the RH, but that would be one assumption, one subjective interpretation, being used to support another (in turn, the belief in accents of a certain kind applying throughout the piece supports the notion of a "tune" - a chain of assumptions). Chopin uses opening and closing hairpins in pairs of bars on the last page (71-72, 73-74, 75-76, and 77-78), which seems to support my view that any rising and falling in volume prior to that was of a subtle kind.

Here are bars 32 to 37 as printed in the first impression of the French first edition (Schlesinger, Paris, June 1833), which was corrected by Chopin:

[Linked Image]

Note the Cres in the middle of bar 33 (which according to the convention you cite is redundant because the performer is already getting louder on the way up); the absence of any dotted line into bar 34 to tell the performer to go against the convention to get quieter on the way down; the F at the beginning of bar 35; and Dim. during bar 36. And here are bars 73-74 as printed in the same French first edition:

[Linked Image]

Opening and closing hairpins, with an accent on the D flat at the beginning of the 3rd beat of bar 74, while at the same time the overall dynamic is quietening. This goes against an interpretation of additional accents beyond bars 1-2 illustrating deviations from convention dynamic shaping of "the tune" as you call it.


(Used to post as SlatterFan)
Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618801
02/13/11 09:27 AM
02/13/11 09:27 AM
Joined: May 2007
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London, UK (though if it's Aug...
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Originally Posted by Nyiregyhazi

Hmmm. So this time Chopin could be bothered to write them out rather than rely on the "convention" that says they are supposed to be repeated. Not so lazy this time.

and this?
[Linked Image]


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618805
02/13/11 09:38 AM
02/13/11 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Originally Posted by Nyiregyhazi

Hmmm. So this time Chopin could be bothered to write them out rather than rely on the "convention" that says they are supposed to be repeated. Not so lazy this time.

and this?
[Linked Image]


Yes, it's certainly an interesting divergence- after he notated accents for that part the first time around. However, after Chopin write all the individual ones in the left hand for a few bars immediately before that (just as in the first time, when he continued to write them), the reader will have to make their own mind up as to whether Chopin wanted a more uniform execution, or wanted them to continue. Who can honestly know what he meant? I've heard pianists who do indeed make this part different to the first time and it can work.

What I know for a fact is that I cannot divine an answer that is anything more than my own opinion.

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618806
02/13/11 09:39 AM
02/13/11 09:39 AM
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Julian, thanks for actually supporting your points with scholarship rather than just invective. I'd have to say the hairpins are between the cres and dim marks. The cres and dim marks create a larger dynamic rising and falling section within which Chopin doesn't want to lose the conventional two bar rise and fall units - so marks it. As he's marked it there, he must also mark it in the last two bars in case any assume those two are to be different as they're unmarked.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618808
02/13/11 09:42 AM
02/13/11 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Julian, thanks for actually supporting your points with scholarship rather than just invective.


Would you mind doing the same regarding this "convention"? Or are you going to keep changing the subject when I ask for the supporting evidence that enables you to state things as fact and to be dismissive of all alternative interpretations?

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