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Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: Nyiregyhazi] #1618346
02/12/11 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Nyiregyhazi
Fine. Now are you going to deal with the point here or not?

If notational conventions of the day demand accents on every beat- how can the SAME accent symbol point to an even stronger note
Because there are two conventions here. One says there is an accent on every beat - indicated by the first two bars, the second says a rising melody crescendos while a falling one decrescendos. The 'extra' accents in question counter the second convention (i.e. that those accents should by convention be quieter than the 'top' one).


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Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: Damon] #1618348
02/12/11 02:50 PM
02/12/11 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Damon
Could you guys possibly settle this with guns?


Or by duking it out against each other on World of Warcraft! laugh

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618351
02/12/11 02:56 PM
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I think we prefer PianoWorldWar!


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Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618396
02/12/11 04:14 PM
02/12/11 04:14 PM
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Thus far, Keyboardklutz has contributed 81 posts to this particular thread - and Nyiregyhazi has contributed 60. That's in addition to their posts on the original "tutorial" tread on this subject.

Following all of this is like watching a couple of rabid pit bulls fighting to the death.

Give it a rest guys. You've succeeded in convincing me NEVER to bother to learn the Opus 10 No. 1.

Perhaps its time for a little divine intervention from a Moderator.




Last edited by carey; 02/12/11 04:15 PM.

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Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618406
02/12/11 04:27 PM
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What is all this? Why even read a thread, let alone post in it, if it annoys you? Sheesh.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: Carey] #1618411
02/12/11 04:34 PM
02/12/11 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by carey
You've succeeded in convincing me NEVER to bother to learn the Opus 10 No. 1.



No, no, noooo...don't say that. Learn it, by all means, but pay no attention to ANY of their advice hahahaha! What cracks me right up is how someone will interject with a post and they just continue on as if the post were never there. Might just be me, but I find it funny. =p



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618416
02/12/11 04:43 PM
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So, calling me a jackwagon (whatever that is) is somehow a contribution?


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618418
02/12/11 04:44 PM
02/12/11 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
What is all this? Why even read a thread, let alone post in it, if it annoys you? Sheesh.


You make an excellent point....but it appears that I'm in good company. grin


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Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618423
02/12/11 04:55 PM
02/12/11 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
What is all this? Why even read a thread, let alone post in it, if it annoys you? Sheesh.
Sheesh? Ever think that some might want to read a thread about some topic but not want to read or even have to scroll past just an endless argument between two posters who I think at this point will disagree on anything? Even more so if the poster's performance of the piece is horrendous??

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618426
02/12/11 05:01 PM
02/12/11 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
So, calling me a jackwagon (whatever that is) is somehow a contribution?


No offense, klutz. You know me to a point and I'm sure you know idiot was on the tip of my tongue (which I held). It may not have been an altogether useful contribution, but then neither is the crap that the two of you have been spitting back and forth for a year and a day. I do think my suggestion for the two of you to find a way to put your opposing viewpoints together in profitable way for all to be more than useful. Spend half the time you spend arguing talking to each other about putting together some kind of a useful idiot vs. idiot lecture/blog/video/book/whatever highlighting the pros and cons of various thoughts on whatever subject the two of you agree (that's a laugh) upon.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: pianoloverus] #1618429
02/12/11 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Even more so if the poster's performance of the piece is horrendous??
Then don't take part! Revive JAP's thread. Rudeness I can do without.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618441
02/12/11 05:19 PM
02/12/11 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Even more so if the poster's performance of the piece is horrendous??
Then don't take part! Revive JAP's thread. Rudeness I can do without.
You haven't posted a single video that shows more technical skill than an average intermediate. Your posts are like going to a social event where one or two people do 99% of the talking although they are unqualified and then having those people ask all the others to leave.

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618452
02/12/11 05:28 PM
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It was by my invitation. If you've no respect for the host just leave the party.


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http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618459
02/12/11 05:33 PM
02/12/11 05:33 PM
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As a general rule: If you post on PW, expect people to comment on it, rude or not. If not, you should have just sent PM's to the people you wanted to invite.


Current:
Beethoven: Sonata Op.31, No.2 ("Tempest")
Debussy: Danseuses de Delphes (Prelude 1, Book 1)
Next in line:
Chopin: Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op.23
Debussy: Le vent dans la plaine (Prelude 3, Book 1)
Debussy: Les sons et les parfums tournent dans l'air du soir (Prelude 4, Book 1)
Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618462
02/12/11 05:40 PM
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They could actually add to the discussion though?


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Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618484
02/12/11 06:09 PM
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So, I'll recap: Chopin asked for accents on every beat in this piece. In a few places he asked for a louder accent than convention would dictate. Now, if anybody has a comment on that great, otherwise do me a favour and just don't post!


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http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618489
02/12/11 06:15 PM
02/12/11 06:15 PM
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N. and kbk, I hope you don't ignore my comments here as I'm the only one actually participating in the active practice and talking about it

I just hope you two can just agree to disagree and move on because excluding the arguments, there are really some valuable points. Make your point and then move on. Trying to convince each other is pointless. I'm fine (and I'm sure others are too) with the differing points of view.

So can we move on to real practicing and real issues with this?

There's two different purposes in learning this: (a) Perform it (b) or just take advantage of it as en Etude.

I bet many of us are in the (b) camp because it's a solid way to build some technique. It's been said that this etude should not be approached as a technique builder but to be approached only of you have the technique. I don't know what my level is but except for the goal of 176bpm, it's manageable. Heck I don't even know if I can play scales at 176bpm. But I'm getting through this with just some hard work.

I think those of us using this as an actual etude could actually care less if the accents are supposed to be loud or not. It's more of an issue of "Can we execute on the accents as needed". Thus it only makes sense to be able to create loud accents in practice.


From my end, I've tried to play it a couple of different ways with success: (a) have the arm lead (b) have the fingers lead with a released arm.

Don't know which I prefer yet. But sometimes I have to do both.

I'm finding that it's really important to lighten up on the fingers here.

It's a heck of a leap from where I am to 176bpm. But I'm not sure it's necessary to reach that tempo to benefit from this.









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Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618500
02/12/11 06:29 PM
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At last a voice of reason. Why all the animosity is beyond me. My interpretation is perfectly valid and justifiable, but in the end you play it how you wish.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618503
02/12/11 06:34 PM
02/12/11 06:34 PM
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One of the real contributions people can make here it to discuss how they got their speed up and what discoveries they made along the way.

Any takers?

It doesn't mean you got it to 176bpm. But if got it from 80 to 144, then let's hear how you did that.



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Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: Carey] #1618517
02/12/11 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by carey

Give it a rest guys. You've succeeded in convincing me NEVER to bother to learn the Opus 10 No. 1.


I was thinking about learning it with only the accents and the left hand. smirk

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: Damon] #1618525
02/12/11 07:15 PM
02/12/11 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by carey

Give it a rest guys. You've succeeded in convincing me NEVER to bother to learn the Opus 10 No. 1.


I was thinking about learning it with only the accents and the left hand. smirk


grin grin grin

Actually I have my hands full right now putting the finishing touches on Opus 25 No. 1, 2, 9 and 12. At my age I gotta pick my battles !! There are several other etudes in Opus 10 and 25 that I'd like to learn before attempting the Opus 10 No. 1.



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Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: jazzwee] #1618558
02/12/11 08:18 PM
02/12/11 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
One of the real contributions people can make here it to discuss how they got their speed up and what discoveries they made along the way.

Any takers?

It doesn't mean you got it to 176bpm. But if got it from 80 to 144, then let's hear how you did that.



Ask this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVC9ESsA3Go

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618601
02/12/11 09:34 PM
02/12/11 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
At last a voice of reason. Why all the animosity is beyond me. My interpretation is perfectly valid and justifiable, but in the end you play it how you wish.


Your interpretation is indeed valid- as an INTERPRETATION. It is not valid to say that Chopin DEFINITELY intended to signify very literal accents throughout the etude. Neither is it valid to dimiss alternative ways of interpeting accents THAT HE DID NOT WRITE- or to refer to it as if he DID write them in. I would very much like to hear your source for the "convention" that he intended every beat to be very literally accented, that you state as if it were fact .



Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: Orange Soda King] #1618617
02/12/11 10:24 PM
02/12/11 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Originally Posted by jazzwee
One of the real contributions people can make here it to discuss how they got their speed up and what discoveries they made along the way.

Any takers?

It doesn't mean you got it to 176bpm. But if got it from 80 to 144, then let's hear how you did that.



Ask this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVC9ESsA3Go


hahaha! I love that video and am pretty sure I've posted it here elsewhere before. Kills me every time I see it.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618641
02/12/11 11:53 PM
02/12/11 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
So, I'll recap: Chopin asked for accents on every beat in this piece.


Chopin did no such thing. He wrote accents in the first two bars. He did not "ask" for this to continue. It is entirely down to the person reading what he wrote to make up their own mind whether he is likely to have intended for the entire piece to consist of accents (or whether he failed to continue writing them in order to prevent excessively pronounced accentuation).

It is entirely unreasonable to attribute YOUR extrapolations of what you think Chopin meant to what HE "asked for"- in fact it is simply dishonest to make such a statement as if it were fact. He did not ask for accents on every beat in this piece and neither does any "convention" I know of make this an acceptable statement of fact to make. It is a personal extrapolation of what he MIGHT have meant, not what Chopin asked for.

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618645
02/13/11 12:12 AM
02/13/11 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Nyiregyhazi
Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
So, I'll recap: Chopin asked for accents on every beat in this piece.


Chopin did no such thing.

He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
He did!
He didn't!
.
.
.
ad nauseum.



"Playing the piano is my greatest joy...period."......JP
Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: jazzyprof] #1618648
02/13/11 12:18 AM
02/13/11 12:18 AM
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Hey look, it's Phillip Glass again!!

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: Nyiregyhazi] #1618678
02/13/11 02:06 AM
02/13/11 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Nyiregyhazi

Chopin did no such thing. He wrote accents in the first two bars. He did not "ask" for this to continue.
So, again that just shows your knowledge of notational convention to be quite poor.

Folks this is really quite simple. Instead of silly posting look at the score - you'll realize there are accents throughout. For anyone to claim they disappear after two bars or that something can be inferred from their absence is is not only nonsensical, it's nonmusical. But then, I suppose, this is the internet.


snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
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Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz] #1618688
02/13/11 02:37 AM
02/13/11 02:37 AM
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Does anyone know Chopin's telephone number so that we can settle the hash? ... my guess is Pearly Gates Poland Etude 10-1 ... that's of course if St. Peter let Fred in ... and liked his rattling Studies.

But some people like to have “the last word” (27 pages later) ... and OP klutz should know better than to goad the piano teacher to endlessly rancour correction with ...

“I can't believe you are still claiming Chopin requires ACCENTS,
rather than MILD EMPHASIS.”

It’s enough to make my dog howl...such crass pigheadedness is inevitably rewarded with unimaginative thinking.

Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: btb] #1618700
02/13/11 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by btb
Does anyone know Chopin's telephone number so that we can settle the hash? ... my guess is Pearly Gates Poland Etude 10-1 ... that's of course if St. Peter let Fred in ... and liked his rattling Studies.

But some people like to have “the last word” (27 pages later) ... and OP klutz should know better than to goad the piano teacher to endlessly rancour correction with ...

“I can't believe you are still claiming Chopin requires ACCENTS,
rather than MILD EMPHASIS.”

It’s enough to make my dog howl...such crass pigheadedness is inevitably rewarded with unimaginative thinking.


I have to admit that was quite funny...I would love to call Fred but my ATT plan is crud and I couldn't even begin to imagine the astronomical fees I'd incur with a call to the 'nether.

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