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As I continue my classical music adventure I more and more come to the conclusion that all instruments in an orchestra, other than the strings and piano--have to go.

Why? To my ear whatever the horns, drums, etc. can do the strings and piano can do it better. Strings and piano create the sounds I like best to hear.

Not trying to be controversial here, just my opinion about the kinds of sounds I like to hear.

Do any of you feel likewise?

Bech

In a word, no. I'm trying to imagine the opening of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring without the bassoon, or the last movement of Das Lied von der Erde without the oboe - and failing!

Well I see what you mean in terms of maintaining the historical character of a piece and I can understand that but you've also mentioned two of my least favorite instruments.

My stance is, and to my ears, the strings and piano are the most musical of all instruments so I'll concentrate my listening to these instruments, in so far as possible, knowing that this will eliminate many pieces.

If I were a composer I would be sure to eliminate what I consider to be 2nd and 3rd rate instruments. Drums, to me, are totally unacceptable with respect to beautiful music. For dramatic effect in knock'em dead with sound, yes. Soundtracks for movies would be an example of this.

I am placing beautiful sound, first.

Bech

Me too. We just disagree on what it is.And you're going to miss out on a great deal of very beautiful music.

Bech,

I find your stance extremely close minded and I'm afraid also misinformed... Yes the strings and the piano are beautiful, but apart from all the different timbres you get with every instrument (which are greatly different... How can you not seperate the flute, with the trumpet, with the violin, with the piano?), you also get different techniques, which cannot be done with every instrument (for example the mute techniques in all brass, the undefinite tremoli with the percussion, etc...).

I am a composer and I can't wait to get the next commission, in order to add more colour, instruments and techniques into my work.

As far as beauty is concerned, apart from the fact that it's in the eye of the beholder, I can also promise you that the world is not only a beautiful place, and the same applies to music and every art actually.

So if your post is about what you like by all means: YES! GO AHEAD! It makes sense (especially since you mentioned you don't want to be controversial). If you are implying something deeper though, I whole heartily dissagree, sorry!

What Nikolas said!!

As a composer I love the sound when the horns double a melody in the cellos. I love the sound when oboe and flute play a melody together. I also like latin percussion and horn section splats. I do enjoy strings and piano, but for sheer glory of sound nothing beats a large pipe organ. But you will never hear me say other instruments suck. At this stage of musical evolution all the instruments have wonderful qualities. It's not like we're talking krumhorns and sackbutts.

No! Though if you're talking about the imitation instrumental sounds found on home keyboards you have a point!

Bech,

Is this hearing deficit something you have suffered from for a long time or has it just manifested itself recently?

When you were younger did you enjoy rock music, or big band sound or even bagpipes?

What about vocal music; does it sound good or does it sound too much like other wind instruments?

Crit,

I'll admit to a hearing deficit but only due to my age and gun hobby minus the common sense to use hearing protection most of the time.

Now you know! I'm physically incapable of judging music. I'm kidding here, in part. I hear well with my headphones. Not perfect, but well.

I understand what you guys are saying and I do enjoy orchestras as they are and will continue to be. I'm just saying that in terms of beautiful music the strings and the piano are best. This is personal and someone may truthfully consider the oboe the prettiest sounding instrument in the orchestra.

My favorite music is the piano when played all by itself. I discovered this several years ago when I found, with lots of other music/recordings to choose from, I especially enjoyed the piano. That pretty much explains why I'm a member of this group. Too, I know I'm listening to the best piano sound possible when I hear a concert grand. The piano brought me here and not classical music or orchestras.

I know you'll agree that the great composers had their favorite instruments and they would favor or highlight them in their works. Actually, as you know, they would even compose soley for one instrument. An example would be Chopin for the piano.

I'm relatively new to classical music and orchestras so I'm sure I have much to learn and over time will understand and appreciate both more than I do at present.

Appreciate your responses and know they come from a much more musically educated background than my opinions do.

I'm reminded of one of my favorite sayings: "A gentleman is a person who can disagree in an agreeable manner." I don't always "measure up" but I like to keep this in mind.

Bech

Bech,

If I may suggest something. I won't keep on trying to persuade you on anything, after all it's your call, your ears, your taste and your background.

Still, could it be that you haven't come accross a beautiful music work written for other instruments? Could it be perhaps that, since you're new to this kind of music, you haven't been introduced to other works? This IS after all PIANOworld... And you speak the truth that possibly the most beautiful sound can be the LIVE piano playing.

By all means I think I understand what you mean about piano and strings, and incidently this is the kind of instrumentation I've beeb working on, but for other reasons, apart from only aesthetics.

I hope I'm not coming off as patronizing, this is not my wish... Just an idea.

Try listening to any Mozart Piano Concerto from No.17 onwards, and imagine the interchange between piano and woodwind (especially in the slow movements) being replaced by piano and strings, and you'll realize a lot has been lost. Hummel have done arrangements of several Mozart Piano Concertos for piano and string quintet, but though his arrangements are very clever, using the piano to substitute for the woodwind, they don't sound anything as good as what Mozart wrote. There are several CDs of these arrangements from the BIS label, if you're interested.

Some composers write better for woodwind and horn than others - none better than Mozart, in my opinion, and not just in concertos either; his Symphony No.39 won't work without it, for example (just listen to the opening chord). Nor his Quintet for Piano and Wind, which relies on all the different colors of the woodwind and cannot be replaced by a string group (Beethoven's version is more easily 'replaced'). On the other hand, there are other works by other composers where the woodwind is just there to prop up the harmony rather than to contribute their own color....

Classical music is going to stay what it is and has been and that means it will continue with the full array of instruments.
I don't see this as bad and I enjoy the horns and drums, etc. However, sometimes when a "lesser instrument" begins playing prominently I can feel let-down after just experiencing the piano or strings.

I guess my point is when it comes to ultimate beautiful sound the piano and violin wins with me. Sometimes the cello. Love the Double Bass. Kind of funny but seems I've notice that many violins playing in unison can be even more beautiful than a single violin. Can be really outstanding.

Here's an exceptional performance that absolutely would not work without horns:

Bernstein performs on C Bechstein #1&#2. Type this in the YouTube box. I'm impressed with Bernstein's piano playing and the sound of that Bechstein. Hard to find a quality recording with a Bechstein piano. The horns are great here. The piece is Gershwin's Rhapsody In Blue.

Be careful or you'll get Berstein performing this piece with poorer sound quality. At least 2 other versions.

Bech

As equal tempered music goes, I would agree and say that the a Steinway D & a string orchestra is the ultimate pallet. The piano is the ultimate single instrument for a musician and a string section has the most beautiful harmony. I do appreciate practically every instrument about, however. I love woodwinds, double reeds especially. The degree of musicianship in a double reed player is generally higher than other woodwind performers, there is greater customization with the reed etc and relatively little focus on virtuosity. Brass is extrovert while the strings are introvert in a basic sense. To me, while sporadic intrusions of woodwind add life, real breath to the music, brass is just nightmarish. I know it is blunt and people wont like it but I just find brass frustrating for period of more than a few seconds. The texture is monotonous and extremely loud and this is perhaps the only valid use for brass in any symphonic work. Shock value, loudness! Maybe muted stabs...ooh threatening! In my mind all brass instruments are vastly infiere to woodwinds and strings. And it is just too loud! Not to mention solo trumpeters...Yes exactly the extrovert personality compared to the introvert...In early days, brass was appreciated for this but it has no place in new music really...Woodwinds are wonderful too in small pianissimo passages but strings and piano do indeed win out. The piano is sadly unable to innovate however and this is sad. Future music will be more involved with microtonal scales and until Steinway sort this out somehow, the piano can take no part in the new epoch. This leaves the strings and voice. As long as physical instruments are used the string family and the voice will be the ultimate instruments I imagine. When I speak of voice I mean solo voices. I believe textural choirs of voices do wear down the ear eventually. Likewise, low voices like bass or baritone are never as wonderful as boy trebles, woman sopranos or ideally, castratos. Now my ideal is a high single voice with a string section, or at a stretch a boys choir with a string section. I forgot to mention percussion instruments alongside the piano, they need not become involved in this music. While marimbas and things are nice, we may as well keep the music pure and away from incidental timbres.
The castrato man was the ultimate (semi)natural tone. Sadly we have them no more, so we must make do with boys instead, who will always be inferior, though still nice of course.
Back to the original post, I too find the piano and strings the ultimate instrument as far as romantic music is concerned. However, the arrangement of Bach's Air for strings is an example of how close strings are to the heart. The only thing closer could be in its own way, a castrato voice added, or a a purely synthesized composition, a piece purely made of modified sine waves.
Ok! While Im drunkenly ranting here's another thing! Composers these days! Or at least, somewhat successful 'academic' composers these days. It seems that rather than advancing music along its time-line, it has stagnated since the time some people thought that tonality was dead and we should start dotting out fingers around the piano. Ok, sure they made useless maps ordering it but really it's a dead end. 'Young composers' these days are being applauded for ignoring every rule in the book and slapping their hands on the piano. The idea is that if they've got sheet music for it (the more absurd it reads the better) and if they can write an essay about it, it's just too clever for the hoi polloi really. Directors of conservatories too! A man on a piano...silence...random arpeggios...longer silence...massive chord a thousand times. While a saxaphonist is just doing angular motifs of a second every minute and a few stabs. Of course if you doubt this is truly intelligent music you are lampooned as being a buffoon. It's a joke really...
I have made an honest effort to listen the much music of all eras but music must be advanced with new scales! The 12 tone system cant truly yield any more incredible music. I was recently slapped in the face by a conservatoire calling my music elementary because I insisted on sending tonal music. Counterpoint and all. I know people who were much inferior composers accepted for going the somewhat guaranteed route of writing nonsense piano music but writing the notation beautifully and including a story to go with it too. And I'm not a deluded soul either, aside from my tonal compositions I sent which won favour with several other tonal composers I was given aural tests during my interview. Listening and saying what the interval was while a professor hit one key at the bottom of the keyboard and one at the top. This was done several times and I was told I was the first person to get them all correct.
Anyway, I shall certainly regret being so forward and disagreeable but these are my opinions and I mean no disrespect to any honest composer or honest musician.
Recentish-ly I was forced to reevaluate my relationship to music and my compositions. I've now embarked on a voyage of musical microtonality. Although I was veering towards more chromatics and just intonation.
After all this I shall share some of my music.
A short tonal passage played four times.
A new piece utilising microtonal scales. There is a pause at 2:25.
Ok...of course I hope you enjoy it...Please no personal attacks, I'm a sensitive guy y'know..I'm only trying to provoke debate.

~Joshua

Hi Joshua,

Exactly as you're a sensetive guy and all, so am I and everyone else in the world, y'know!

Joshua, I kind of agree with what you say and certainly the academy is forcing down the throats of young composers contemporary aesthetic idioms, without much excuse of explaining. While these are all tools and should be taught, there's no saying that a composer should be frowned upon, if using a tonal system successfuly!

Of course you should realise that, especially in postgraduate studies, it's the effort of the universities and conservatories to advance aesthetic ideals of today! I would argue that an academic composer, might have gone through the counterpoint, etc, studies and decided to disregard them in favor of a different system. Pretty much similarly to your microtonal work (made with VSL I assume? It sounds quite interesting, but can't say I enjoyed the gliss/port of the said company... :$), where you push the boundaries somewhat.

I do think, however, that you post shows a rather close minded take on new music (by academic composers, or not), as well as a tendency to insult a little bit...

EDIT: One should also consider a general thought... "Why compose "yet another symphony" when there's tons around?" A challenging and provocative question really, since it implies that all symphonies are the same, but in reality I would argue that one can come up with quite different results in form, and thus to a new work! After all it's about being creative, right?